Video: I AM BRADLEY MANNING

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

In love with the system? That isn't quite accurate. I absolutely and without qualification love my nation. I love everything about my nation, as a people and a country.

Any special reason other than being born there? Sincerely asking. Being patriotic is something of a default for humans. They associate their country with their home (house) and their life. Which is understandable. Nazis also loved their country...and did many crimes for the "Fatherland". Being patriotic isn't necessarily a "good" thing.

I distrust and very strongly dislike my Government. The two are very different things. The 'System' is a combination of the two and what makes this whole crazy world go around in my nation as well as every other. So, yes, I am rather attached to the system.

A nation or a country is not some independent entity. A country is what it's people are and it's laws and deeds. Including the Gov. At one point, Germany was considered evil because of Nazis. All of the Germany was branded with it after the WW2. Today however, nobody thinks that. You see...there is no this mystic entity you cling to..."nation". It's just a human term invented for purposes of control and division. Actually what we mean by it...is people. Nation does what people do. And your deeds are not written in stone like ten commandments under which your nation governs itself.

So the same people/nation killed many of your democratically elected presidents, attacked other nations, spy on their own and enemy alike, among many other nice things (I'm in no way saying that other countries are better/worse, I just took US as an example). You the people choose the Gov by electing them...that Gov represents you as a nation...internally and externally. Thus their actions are a reflection of the national mindset. It's laws, it's verdicts, it's accusations the same. If you didn't condone it..you should change it. But you reelected. Therefore.

You can not talk about distrusting Gov and loving/trusting the nation. Who is nation?

There are Anarchist types who believe we should have no system or would just be content with the utter destruction of this one. I've yet to meet one I'd trust running a lemonade stand, let alone rebuilding the system from the ashes left of this one. Without a replacement, the destruction of what we have is insane. It's Mad Max with better guns....or for those unfortunate enough to not have such tools of defense in a world gone mad, it's slavery to whoever takes possession of a body first.

For once I agree. Although I have anarchistic thoughts sometimes, I'm fully aware of what total anarchy means, and I wouldn't ever wish it on this planet.

But sometimes in order to build the most beautiful castle, you must demolish the old shack. It was what we humans have been doing for a long time. Building and tearing down. And building again, from the ground up. The system should not be exempt. It has to reflect the level of progress we as species made. Ironically it appears..it does.

I'm in college, not to destroy the system, but to do my part within it, to help bring change

No offence, but doing your part within it sounds like being a cogwheel in a watch. And you're not bringing change by being apologetic to your government/nation when it has obviously done many wrongs. And you are doing just that by condemning Manning for whatever you wan to blame him. The fact that you ignore the obvious elephant in the room shows this mindset. Security, security...fear, fear, terror, terror...bla bla...

That's like saying: "I don't care if you saw me killing a guy...you had no clearance being there in the first place". Instead of promoting honesty and truth, we punish it by clinging to stupid technicalities while letting unspeakable crimes off the hook because of it. I see it all the time on your TV lawyer shows. You look so proud about it too.


We made truth irrelevant and silly.

I'm not sure what you'd ultimately like to see happen here...

No large scale collapse needed, only change in policy. Ultimate transparency. If everyone adhered to it, there would be no reason for secrecy. I realize that your nation is forever under security threat but you must understand...you get what you dish out. The only change possible is, as you said it, from within.



I realize all this sounds perhaps too childishly idealistic to you, that I don't live in a real world...full of ugly spies and nukes, and terrorists...but it is we who make it happen. Ultimately. We. The nation.


Anyway... I must rest now My inner child would like to play some games.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly

Any special reason other than being born there? Sincerely asking. Being patriotic is something of a default for humans. They associate their country with their home (house) and their life. Which is understandable. Nazis also loved their country...and did many crimes for the "Fatherland". Being patriotic isn't necessarily a "good" thing.

Well, yes, as a matter of fact. There are more reasons than pure nationalism for my pride and love of my nation. For one example, the US is, as a people, by far the most generous on Earth when other nations have crisis or disaster. Other nations have the direct ability to match or exceed us in what is mustered and given on a dollar for dollar basis and choose not to. Some examples..

Tsunami Relief by nation

Haiti Quake Relief by nation

Pakistani Flood Aid by nation

Now I realize those can be attacked and belittled for ulterior motives or what have you. The fact does remain, the people got aid that otherwise would not have been there and a good part of it on the public and high profile disasters comes from private American citizens.

China is catching up to us on this point, but by an large, it's still American aid you see around the world in 3rd world nations. English on the bags and boxes and American points of origin on the goods they receive. That is a point of pride every American should feel good about. We're a generous people when, as so many note, we don't have to be by sheer power and force of will without that.

Also....The Government itself is not one big mass. It's ENORMOUS but that brings within it, very clear distinctions as to what is happening. A park ranger isn't a man to hate while perhaps some members of the Intelligence community are. The head of NASA isn't someone I think ought to be prosecuted while the Chief of Staff at the White House is. It's too large a Government, but it makes for a complex issue and nowhere near as simple as some would suggest.

A nation or a country is not some independent entity. A country is what it's people are and it's laws and deeds. Including the Gov. At one point, Germany was considered evil because of Nazis.

Under a Democracy or Representative Republic (The latter being our system) it actually is about the people and the country as much apart from as a part of the Government that leads it. The fact that pure apathy and desire to let the Government "govern itself" has led to a runaway monster doesn't change those fundamentals. We've gotten the Government we've both asked for and deserved. Now it's a matter of changing that.

I'm not even entertaining German/Nazi comparisons. That is so badly overused and abused for comparisons and the connotation so far beyond modern reality, I don't see the connection on any level within a serious debate...even if some others do.

No offence, but doing your part within it sounds like being a cogwheel in a watch. And you're not bringing change by being apologetic to your government/nation when it has obviously done many wrongs.

Be the change you want to see in this world. Those are words I chose to define my life and goals by. That decision came late in life. Far too late and almost too late to matter. However, it is the path I've chosen. We've gotten here by those working within, not outside the system just abusing the daylights out of it and us.

In the end, we can change it from within or without. Without means revolution. Who are you figuring deserves to die first? It's not hyperbole. It's being realistic. Revolution necessitates killing. You seem to support revolution or change by force. So who, specifically, should be shot? No one will get within a mile of those you see on TV...so closer to home, where we live. The clerk at the courthouse? The Judge on the bench? The cop on the beat? I'm working within because there isn't a viable alternative. Simple as that.

No large scale collapse needed, only change in policy. Ultimate transparency. If everyone adhered to it, there would be no reason for secrecy.

That is precisely my intent by working within the system. Assisting in whatever small ways my skills and later position may make possible for wide spread and systemic change.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by GrantedBail

 

You and I likely aren't too far off for thinking on this. I think you prefer he get a full walk if I recall your msgs correctly, and I'm entirely against that ...but he sure doesn't deserve life. As for his pleas?

He should get 5 years, with credit for time already served. Most of what he leaked was in the national interest to reveal. I feel he had a responsibility being in the position he was in to reveal the war crimes taking place and bring them to public attention. The unrelated stuff shouldn't have been leaked (a large portion of the diplomatic cables), but I also recognize that the sheer volume of what he had access to, largely requires a batch release with several people going over it in order to find all of the specific acts of injustice occurring, like what Wikileaks was able to do. The job was simply too big for one person.

After that, the guy deserves a medal, as do most whistleblowers that stand up against powerful organizations.

reply to post by Aazadan


I had to get away from this for a bit to regain perspective. It's a subject I'm personal and emotional with and for reasons that are entirely my own. However, your note deserves a reply. Especially since you seem willing to at least meet half way on things by stipulating 5 years in prison. Most just demand an outright walk and free pass...which is absurd, IMO.

He not only had an obligation but he had a DUTY to do something about what he was seeing, if he honestly and truly felt it was criminal and against the rules of war and/or the regulations of the US Armed Forces. I will agree with that entirely. The US doesn't train it's people to be mindless conscripts who follow whatever officer is handed them, no matter what the command, because they possess no capacity for individual judgment or initiative.

However, here is the thing as I see it and what would have made ALL the difference. He had a DUTY to remain within his Service and failing that, within the structure of the US Government as it's system allows for his appeal for action. Now...he would have been a wise bird to do all his copying and then hiding in whatever way he had to before that. Why? Well, if all PROPER channeled attempts came to failure and no action ... THEN ...I'd have seen the boys point and even have a touch of respect. What can a guy do after all? If you've run every proper course and you feel you are a party to true criminal action/evil deeds...You HAVE to do something about that.

The problem is..The right way was the hard way. The easiest solution should have been the dead last solution. Protected to remain an option, as I noted...but dead last. He took the easy way as #1 before trying anything else, anywhere else.

.......His trial is also indicating that those action reports did contain specific tactics, methods, facility details and operational specifics which were gold to the enemy's "intelligence section", such that Al Qaeda in Iraq has one.

A right way and a wrong way...Indeed. I don't go with 5 years but time served ought to be considered. Fair there. That would make his full sentence left, less than 20 from this day on. I could live with that if that's how this shakes out.