If government is so horrible, what is the answer?

Originally posted by samstone11
Would it not make sense that as the population explodes as it has over the past few decades that several factors become more apparent?

First, as I learned in the corporate world, the more crowded the field of competitors for power or simple existence the more those who are willing to lie, cheat, or steal what they want will rise in prominence. Ethics, morals. and extraneous effort to follow laws and regulations very rapidly creates a voluminous void between them and the corrupt. Honesty is far more often penalized than rewarded.

Second, sheer numbers produce more competitors with hidden or unsavory motives.

Third, if a true democracy were to exist, this could be a tremendous move in the right direction. No more electoral; college, no more republic, and one vote = one vote. Even if such a situation were to occur, there would always be sore losers which could lead to a new set of concerns.

Fourth, even if a true communist ruling party were to exist, this could be a tremendous move in a better direction. Redistribution of wealth does not have to come by robbery, it could simply be allowed through real honest to goodness "effort invested is directly proportional to rewards gained". This falls under communism as those who refuse to participate reap exactly what they earn. Social services would be entitled and empowered to expect returns for their investments in under performers as opposed to free hand outs for laziness and unwillingness to add to the greater good.

Fifth, keeping our money "in-house" would very, very quickly make this country become perhaps completely self sufficient, thus reducing the need for an over-sized government in the first place. The added benefit would of course be we could actually build friendships and honest relationships with other nations if we just got out of their business. Less war would equal less rebuilding. Discontinued appointing ourselves the world's police would save tens of billions of dollars.

Sixth, if common sense exists were to somehow actually become a per-requisite to serve in upper level government, a huge amount of problems not only disappear, but by the act of common sense law could never again return.

Last, any government would still have to maintain a global position of power with some means of passive Mutually Assured Destruction. We can't paint targets on our chest in the process, but as we withdraw from trying to dominate world events we could become the 800 pound gorilla who stays in his own cubby hole with his family that no one wants to tick off.

There will be great answers to your question, op, and I hope my thoughts are helpful and not offensive to anyone participating in this exercise. Thanks for the topic and good luck.

Thank you for the thoughtful post. Now I guess the question is - how do we get money out of government and close this revolving door from business to government and back. Being a public servant is now little more then an internship for Big Business.

Originally posted by BadBeast
It's not Goverment that's the problem, the enemy, itt's the very idea of government.That we need to e governed..It's been culturally drummed into us for so long we have forgotten how to take charge of our own lives. How to look to ourselves for answers instead of some ruling body. Anarchy (Not anarchISM)

The rule of one. The self. There should be no sovereign greater than that which you have yourself. No kingdom bigger than one man's life. The proportionate resourcing of everyman's needs from sustainable sources. All pVia apple

This is simply not workable. Even tribal man, had some form of government. You are beliving the myth of the self-refliant self where you can provide everything you need for survival on your own. It's never been, or never will be possible.

The only thing that allows civializtion is distribution of duties in the past mostly by accident of birth (going back to that one) but more and more (I hope) based on skills, education and desire.

Everyone needs a mother and community to raise them. This me, me, me is all I need delusion is dangerous.

Originally posted by FyreByrd

Okay - I'll agree with the power and corruption and the need for checks and balances. That was precisely why out government was set up with three equal and separate branches of government. But I would ask where is the source of the corruption you are speaking of? I would assert that it is Big Business not Government it'self.

The only role of government, and as you neglected to say what level of government, I will assume you are speaking of the Federal Government, is to protect us from Exterior Threats. All other services and functions should be handle by Big Business. Presumably because private enterprise is more effecient. There are many cases of government being more efficient then private business as in Medicare and USPS. These services would be prohibitively expensive to a large sector of the population.

Personally, I don't see business willing or able to provide services or protect the commons that would be non-discriminatory and cover all citizens. - But I'm willing to listen to schemes that say otherwise.

But what of the incompetance of Business?

And what happens to the poor, sick and elderly - Will business provide for them? Will business provide any social security net? No - they don't even adhere to current contracts with existing employees and retirees.

The almightly contract is binding on the little guy but not the Corporate person. What you suggest, appears a nightmare where Corporations are the only 'people' that have rights and real existence. People are just a 'consumable' resource - to be used to failure and discarded.

Give some direction to sources for how this Corporate paradise can be found. I've yet to run across one in literature with the execption of Rand's attempt in her novel but they were theoritical musings not day to day practical visions.

Really - Show me your vision of a better world through Corporate Rule.

Not at all. Over regulation and taxation of businesses is much harsher on small businesses than large corporations. Established corporations with high net worth are able to pay high taxes and exploit loopholes to work around regulations (i.e. outsourcing). Furthermore, lobbying and bribing by large corporations is what got us in this mess to begin with.

It is important to understand that American capitalism is crony capitalism; oligarchs of industry are protected by the government, creating a symbiotic relationship that prevents said oligarchs from failing. In a true capitalist setting, bad business practices would have consequences leading to the downfall of businesses.

Keep in mind that the consumer is the lifeblood of the corporation; the corporation is dependent on the consumer, hence why competition requires it to remain competent or become irrelevant. The incompetence of business should lead to the death of said business. A bailout should never become the standard as a safety net for corporate incompetence and malevolence.

As for the role of government, ask yourself why we have formed governments, and why we need governments. History shows us that a divided, disorganized people are easily conquered by a unified and organized people. For the sake of the sovereignty of our land and the survival of our people, then, we need to be unified in our defenses. Otherwise, we end up like the Native Americans, being slowly forced out of our land and brought close to complete ethnic annihilation.

What other need do we have for government? What do they ever do right? Protect us? Please, all they do is take our tax dollars and wage war with them, all for the sake of private interest groups and corporate profit. Not to mention pigs and the entire police establishment, the apex of corruption and incompetence. A justice system that fuels the prison industrial complex? Oh yes, I feel so safe knowing that some kid who got caught smoking weed is going to prison for a few years to work hard labor for 15 cents an hour, justice in the form of new-age slavery is served.

Government and business, like government and religion, don't mix well.

ETA: On the topic of affordability, I would suggest you look into how loans upset supply and demand, thus leading to the creation of economic bubbles. What we're seeing now, especially regarding the affordability of medicine and education, is an offset in what a corporation can charge a consumer. Supply and demand makes most things affordable to most people; it's a very utilitarian system, which is often the most realistic in a real-world setting. However, let's look at what's going on in regards to insurance companies and federal student loans. Insurance companies are able to pay high prices, allowing corporations to charge more, knowing that the demand can be met. People without insurance, then, are unable to afford said care. Student loans are a similar Ouroboros: the federal government loans money to students to pay for college, suddenly the price of tuition spikes something like 500% in a decade. The debt, of course, falls on the student, but the quality of education is not any better than it was when colleges were charging roughly 2 grand a year for tuition. The same thing happened regarding the housing crash a few years ago.

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy

Not at all. Over regulation and taxation of businesses is much harsher on small businesses than large corporations. Established corporations with high net worth are able to pay high taxes and exploit loopholes to work around regulations (i.e. outsourcing). Furthermore, lobbying and bribing by large corporations is what got us in this mess to begin with.

I'll agree with you 100% here - but again I see the problem as that of Big Business influence and not an inherent bias of government.

It is important to understand that American capitalism is crony capitalism; oligarchs of industry are protected by the government, creating a symbiotic relationship that prevents said oligarchs from failing. In a true capitalist setting, bad business practices would have consequences leading to the downfall of businesses.

I do understand that American Capitalism is not the free market ideal.

I again think that rather than "Government protecting Business" it's Business corrupting government and it's bodies.

What is a Bad Business Practise? This requires a better definition and some discussion on the contemporary corporate stucture and prime operating directive which is to provide 'Shareholder Value". This leads to a system that only is responsible to Shareholders and the bottom line without consideration of any other measures of competency.

Adam Smiths uptopian free market assumes that ALL PARTIES have an equal understanding of the circumstances and values in any given business transaction. This can never be the case because business (and the people that make up such entities) are always going to look for an edge by withholding pertinent infomation. I've yet to meet a salesperson that will honestly tell you about the weaknesses of any product even if asked directly and without complete knowledge of the product or service one can't make an informed decision.

Keep in mind that the consumer is the lifeblood of the corporation; the corporation is dependent on the consumer, hence why competition requires it to remain competent or become irrelevant. The incompetence of business should lead to the death of said business. A bailout should never become the standard as a safety net for corporate incompetence and malevolence.

I agree.

As for the role of government, ask yourself why we have formed governments, and why we need governments. History shows us that a divided, disorganized people are easily conquered by a unified and organized people. For the sake of the sovereignty of our land and the survival of our people, then, we need to be unified in our defenses. Otherwise, we end up like the Native Americans, being slowly forced out of our land and brought close to complete ethnic annihilation.

To survive and flourish in a challenging environment - for mutual aide and support.

Why do you think we formed governments?

What other need do we have for government? What do they ever do right? Protect us? Please, all they do is take our tax dollars and wage war with them, all for the sake of private interest groups and corporate profit. Not to mention pigs and the entire police establishment, the apex of corruption and incompetence. A justice system that fuels the prison industrial complex? Oh yes, I feel so safe knowing that some kid who got caught smoking weed is going to prison for a few years to work hard labor for 15 cents an hour, justice in the form of new-age slavery is served.

To provide for the building and maintenace of public utilities (of which I believe there should be more - including banking). To provide needed services to all (transportation, mail, education) to all without regard to ability to pay.

To name a few.

Protection from THEM - really who would want to occupy the US? Really not necessary - it's for sale.

Government and business, like government and religion, don't mix well.

????

ETA: On the topic of affordability, (edited for space)

I assume you are speaking of the 'affordabily of government' - well loans are a Business function - not a government function. Government 'guarentees' certain loans. I've read that 40 - to 60 % of every dollar we spend goes to loan service but I don't see how that is the fault of Governent - it again is Business' influence of government that allows such usary to take place.

In fact where the government to make and administer loans (not back private loans) we'd (WE THE PEOPLE) would realize a nice income to build infrastructure and promote research (not supress likely technologies as Business does).

Quite frankly why does government have to borrow money from money lenders - er financial institutions in the first place? Because of Big Business pressure on Government not because of inherent incompetence of government.

I think this is confusing 'effect' with 'cause'.

As i see it, the problem is with what the government has become, and allowed that is the problem, not the government in its simplest form. They only way to enact any kind of change in policy requires extensive lobbying. Since corporations are allowed to spend billions of dollars on lobbying the government, the corporations essentially decide what changes are made. The corporations have essentially bought the government through lobbying, and they have re-written much of the laws and policies in the interest of profit over the well being of the population.

The only way for the people to combat this, in the current system, would require competing with the billions the corporations spend, which is not possible given the current state of things.

So to answer the question in the op, what needs to change? Corporations need to have the power of lobbying removed, immediately and permanently.

The way it should work, imho, is the people influence policy, the government enacts it, and the corporations evolve their business model to compensate, not the other way around.

DC

I still say drop it all and let's get a council of elders.... 100.. 2 from each state..

The answer is for the government to be held accountable to the people that it represents and for corporations to be held accountable to their customers.

However you wish to go about doing that is fine.

Originally posted by FyreByrd

Two - what are the alternatives to government that you think would work in a diverse society such as the United States where, by definition, we are of many races, cultures, creeds, ages, abilities?

We're not going to have a government in the future. We're all going to "tweet" our suggestions to a central database processing computer, and it will sort and rank the tweets and use "instant democracy" voting to make decisions on the direction in which tax money will be spent, i.e. what projects will be started and funded, and which will be discarded and cancelled etc..and every transaction we make a "micro tax" will be deducted from the transaction. There will be no income taxes, just activity taxes. The people will be their own government.

If you are not master, you will always have a master. We have a choice of corporate masters that we cannot change or government masters who if we are willing we can vote out and replace. There truly is only two choices. You will ALWAYS have a master. I chose the one where if you try really hard and get enough other humans to agree with you, we can replace them with a vote rather than violence.

You can live in denial but the fact is you will always have someone ruling you in one manner or other.

The problem we have right now is that the Corporate guys are now masters of our elected government and determine in large part who governs. This is because most people do not pay attention and get out and vote.

Most governments are corrupt, and not for the people, wake up!

I'm cheering for the Zeitgeist Movement but failing a 'Pearl Harbor event' (heh) where the entire global economic system completely collapses, it's not going to happen in my lifetime.

The main thing you would need would be complete and total transparency on every level so people knew where their resources were going, and for the govt lying to the people to be seen and understood as the treason it is...

Sometimes I wonder how, given they exist, off-world cultures handle this. What if you had a civilization with no money, no religion clouding people's minds, resources being used intelligently and sustainably, no thousands of different languages getting in the way of the acquisition and dissemination of new knowledge, long lifetimes allowing everyone to become highly educated and basically free energy available to all?

And when can I move there?

Originally posted by unphased
I still say drop it all and let's get a council of elders.... 100.. 2 from each state..

I like that idea and add to it - only men can sit on the council - but only women can vote them into office. I've always liked that system as it caters to each genders general type. Men to strut and be out front and women to control behind the scenes.

Yes a delightful idea.

I'm all for a representative government that uses sortition instead of voting as the method of selecting representatives. This would eliminate the popularity contest BS and theatrics that eventually leads to any large democratic process favoring an oligarchy. (And usually that oligarchy is effectively a plutarchy. After some population threshold you need money or additional influence to get noticed in voting, and then it goes all downhill from there.)

Sortition if done fairly (actually being a random lottery draw) is more representative as people from all classes would have an equal chance. No need to be a rich guy, nor bureaucrat or lawyer thats an insider of the system. Surely not all representatives being chosen by that method would be popular in terms of their own opinions and whatnot, but provided there are many representatives it would still smooth out.

Oddly enough when researching this topic a bit, I found the original democracy of Athens used sortition. But it seems those details of how that worked got lost in the majority of history books. Maybe that's one of the things TPTB don't want people to know?

reply to post by FyreByrd


Get rid of the Central Bankers and that would solve 90 percent of the problem with government.

Originally posted by FyreByrd

Originally posted by BadBeast
It's not Goverment that's the problem, the enemy, itt's the very idea of government.That we need to e governed..It's been culturally drummed into us for so long we have forgotten how to take charge of our own lives. How to look to ourselves for answers instead of some ruling body. Anarchy (Not anarchISM)

The rule of one. The self. There should be no sovereign greater than that which you have yourself. No kingdom bigger than one man's life. The proportionate resourcing of everyman's needs from sustainable sources. All pVia apple

This is simply not workable. Even tribal man, had some form of government. You are beliving the myth of the self-refliant self where you can provide everything you need for survival on your own. It's never been, or never will be possible.

The only thing that allows civializtion is distribution of duties in the past mostly by accident of birth (going back to that one) but more and more (I hope) based on skills, education and desire.

Everyone needs a mother and community to raise them. This me, me, me is all I need delusion is dangerous.

I think you are confusing govt and society. Many tribes had functioning societies where people with different skills achieved common goals but where all members were equals in terms of decision making within the tribe.

There was no tribal council or group of elders that everyone deferred to when it came to important matters. All members of the tribe had an equal voice.

There is no need for govt. it just leads to inequality and poverty for those that have no voice.

Government isn't bad, its just sort of a necessary evil that has to be strictly watched to prevent abuse and corruption. Its been way out of control and completley corrupt for years now and is now no longer an assett.
If you actually think the government is the solution to our problems and not the cause of most of them, theres really no talking to you.
Look at local government and politics and if you see any problems there you can increase thos eexponentionally when you go to state and federal levels. At least locally you cna fix the problems most likely.

To change how individuals rule them self is the key.

We are all corrupted by power.

Government spends so much time keeping humans in line.

Getting drunk, raping, murder. These few cause the government to crack on everyone, plus having the power is easy to turn into gluttoney to heal the pain you see.

Work together, form friends, be honest, this is the foundation to the true government that will one day rule the world.

Im in the government. I plan water networks for cities.

We transport the foundatation of life to your door, its because its what the people of the world want and need.

I guess some poisons are added like fluoride, but this was commanded to us by higher powers.

At my level, there is only the desire to help, but frustration with too little resources and no proper leaders leave the workers depressed as well.

There are a lot of good people in the government, FOOOO SHHHURREEEE!

Originally posted by Cabin
reply to post by FyreByrd

 

I believe government is necessary for any civilized nation. Without common rules being set, there would be anarchy.

You conflate anarchy with chaos, as most do. Anarchy is simply society with no rulers, or no forcibly imposed rulers. There are many types of anarchy, from anarcho-syndicalism to anarcho-primitivism to anarcho-capitalism(which is incomprehensible, to say the least).
Most realize that any government is simply a monopoly on violence. As Chomsky said, "Anarchism does not equal bloodshed; it does not mean robbery, arson...These monstrosities are, on the contrary, the characteristic features of capitalism."

Originally posted by FyreByrd
One is why do you hate government? Do you hate it at all levels (Federal, State, County, City) or just at one particular level? Do you see any value in government at any level and in any situation?

I don't hate government, I hate corruption.
We've actually come a long way as a civilization, and that's in no small way thanks to the governments we have. Look outside and see what your country is like now, the things that you can do, the things your kids can do, and then think back to how things were before democratic government.

Would people rather have despotic kings and queens calling the shots?

No, what I hate is wealthy people being the ones running things, making special deals, operating a nation like a profitable business. There should be thousands of people who want to be leaders because of the pride, the history, the patriotism! We have hundreds of thousands of people earning a tiny wage in comparison serving their country at war, and yet we can only find a handful of millionaires to run for office? How the hell does that happen?

I believe we need to get back to government built for the real people of a nation, not the business interests of a global elite.