Why?

I'm not very religious, I've never felt the need to go to church. I believe you are one with your creator wherever you are, at home, at work, wherever.

However, I am a believer. I do believe we were meant to become the masters of Earth, like the dinosaurs were - some 60 mill years ago. I do believe we were helped/guided in this mission. Also, I strongly believe they are watching us (either laughing or scratching their heads wondering where did they go wrong).

I have a question I have been meaning to ask for a very long time: you believe in God/Allah/Buddha. As long as you don't force your beliefs on me, all is fine. But have you ever asked YOUR God why does he let so many children suffer? Why does he allow kids to die? The most recent ones are those poor kids in Moore OK. But it is happening also in the Middle East, be it Syria, Iraq ect.
Why does God allow for so much war, hate and destruction? What satisfaction can be achieved when one family must live on without their father, be it an US soldier or an Iraqi one? Where is the justice in that? Where is the love and care in that?

Once again, I do not challenge your beliefs here, I just want to know what do you think. So please refrain from derailing this thread into yet another conflict. There's enough of that already

Thank you!

reply to post by negue


The question has to be asked, and is a good one.

The world is full of contradiction: beauty and grandeur in nature, but ugliness and degradation accompanies so much in the human sphere.

Here is the Christian answer. The universe in its magnificent order and mind-boggling complexity purposely speaks of the sheer sublimity of the mind that brought it to pass. Nature in particular shouts only One with perfect knowledge could have authored it, let alone conceived it. O the colours! O the joy!











Yet so many things seem to contradict One who is perfect in every aspect of His being.








The answer has many aspects, and is fraught with seemingly inscrutable moral and ethical questions, especially because there have always been so many innocent victims. In essence God has Himself revealed part of the answer through the prophetic writers of the Bible, and ultimately through His own dear Son. He has not revealed all the answers, though, and they are not there on a plate. Years of study and quiet, thoughtful meditation on what these writings reveal are required to delve deeply into such a mystery, not to mention careful comparison of what other students of the Scriptures have written over the course of history.

What He has said is that people were designed to reflect Him, that they were made in His very image. Selfless love and purity in thought and behaviour were to typify the highest beings in the physical realm: human beings. And if this had been the case, only beauty, order and peace would have prevailed, unhindered.

What is not always mentioned is that human depravity has not only caused untold suffering in the experience of us all, but has resulted in what might be described as a 'tactical withdrawal' of the Author. Ever present, yet permitting the consequences of our rebellion to ruin so much. The aim: to reveal the awfulness of life without His blessing. And to open the door to His providing a solution. An unthinkably profound, God-like solution.

He himself took on human form, told us the truth about our moral condition and its inevitable consequences, then willingly, lovingly allowed His own endless indignation at what man has done to be poured out ON HIMSELF.





No one need any longer live a life of bondage to the depraved nature they inherited. All it takes is a look at what God has done, a heart-cry of sorrow at one's fallenness, a request for forgiveness, and a look of hope at the Cross of Christ. The love that is poured into the human heart at this point, both for God and for fellow man is the antidote to so much suffering. It can sound over simplistic, and there i s more; but this IS the answer. Human beings filled with selfless love for others, in the light of the love of the Maker Himself.

Not all suffering would be removed were everyone to believe.

Yet.

But it would. The overarching effect of the removal of God's indignation is the end of all suffering and pain, for all eternity, in His own presence. One has to leave this world first, as so much of it remains opposed to its Maker.

Yet even that will change. The eventual, final outcome, will be a world renewed, and life which is only peace and joy. (I attempted to express this only yesterday, in another thread, The Sound of Heaven, which is more relevant to that topic.)

This, therefore is the Maker's answer. Human hearts restored to selfless love, and a world that has been rid of all moral filth.

The injustice of innocent victims in this life is an inevitable consequence of the Maker's decision to let the consequences of wilful separation from Him be seen. The guilt lies with those who perpetrate rebellious behaviour: each one of us.

The love which He pours into the hearts of Christ's true disciples — hundreds of millions of them throughout history — is His temporary solution. Spending their lives by nature for others, not themselves. Opposing whatever evil manifests itself, albeit very imperfectly, as Christ's disciples are themselves still prone to make a lot of mistakes.

Those who have not yet believed, and followed Him are also capable of giving themselves in the service of others. But the fact remains we remain dominated by selfish desires and ambitions until we are given something of the nature of Christ Himself, which is what the Bible calls 'The New Birth'. Consequently we can only really be part of the solution when the power of the problem has itself been broken deep within our own hearts.

The revelation given in the Bible describes the immense joy that the Maker Himself has when He sees restored human beings working to counter suffering and to oppose whatever promotes suffering.

Amen

Thank you for answering!

Please tell me, God is almighty, right? Then he must know everything there was and everything still to happen. Does this mean that he must already know the outcome of this good/evil battle? Does he already know what will prevail: the love for others or the "human depravity"? If yes, then why the need for so much suffering, violence, famine, diseases and hate?

And thank you to all that s&f'ed this thread!

The flesh does not accept spiritual answers very well. There is a karmic reincarnation system in place in which those that go against GOD have to go through suffering. When Jesus returns he will be able to end the suffering. We reap what we sow. Some parts of hell are here on earth.

reply to post by negue


Your question is not a new one: it has pained the hearts of men and women since times of remotest antiquity. Some even articulated it in the Bible itself, trying to fathom why the Almighty permitted them to suffer seemingly without cause and to no obvious end; 'O God, what ARE you doing in my life, it makes no sense!' —

...I would choose strangling
and death rather than this body.
16 I loathe my life; I would not live for ever.
Let me alone, for my days are a breath.
17 What are human beings, that you make so much of them,
that you set your mind on them,
18 visit them every morning,
test them every moment?
19 Will you not look away from me for a while...
20 If I sin, what do I do to you, you watcher of humanity?
Why have you made me your target?
Why have I become a burden to you?
21 Why do you not pardon my transgression
and take away my iniquity?"

(taken from Job chapter 7)

Even this man who was aware of the need for God's forgiveness, and sincerely served Him, couldn't make head nor tail of it. The whole book is an expression of this anguish. It's a good read. (And thousands of years old.)

And yes, our days are all known beforehand. Job knew this too, and was overwhelmed with frustration that he couldn't fathom his Maker's purpose in all his suffering:

"‘A mortal, born of woman, few of days and full of trouble,
2 comes up like a flower and withers,
flees like a shadow and does not last.
3 Do you fix your eyes on such a one?
Do you bring me into judgement with you?
4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?
No one can.
5 Since their days are determined,
and the number of their months is known to you,
and you have appointed the bounds that they cannot pass,
6 look away from them, and desist,
that they may enjoy, like labourers, their days."

(from chapter 14)

Not only did he suffer physically, he lost his children. Even his friends forsook him, and his wife ridiculed him.

"‘He has put my family far from me,
and my acquaintances are wholly estranged from me.
14 My relatives and my close friends have failed me;
15 the guests in my house have forgotten me...
17 My breath is repulsive to my wife;
I am loathsome to my own family.
18 Even young children despise me;
when I rise, they talk against me.
19 All my intimate friends abhor me,
and those whom I loved have turned against me.
20 My bones cling to my skin and to my flesh,
and I have escaped by the skin of my teeth.
21 Have pity on me, have pity on me, O you my friends...

(from chapter 19)

What on earth was going on? Could the Almighty, all-knowing God of Love really be in control?

Eventually He Himself speaks towards the end of the book. But not because He had to. But because He cared.

Shocking though His response may be.

"And the Lord said to Job:

2 ‘Shall a fault-finder contend with the Almighty?
Anyone who argues with God must respond.’

3 Then Job answered the Lord:

4 ‘See, I am of small account; what shall I answer you?
I lay my hand on my mouth.
5 I have spoken once, and I will not answer;
twice, but will proceed no further.’

6 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind:

7 ‘Gird up your loins like a man;
I will question you, and you declare to me.
8 Will you even put me in the wrong?
Will you condemn me that you may be justified?
9 Have you an arm like God...
11 Pour out the overflowings of your anger,
and look on all who are proud, and abase them.
12 Look on all who are proud, and bring them low;
tread down the wicked where they stand.
13 Hide them all in the dust together;
bind their faces in the world below.
14 Then I will also acknowledge to you
that your own right hand can give you victory."

(from Job chapter 40)

One thing God reveals is that He, as the very Judge of what is right and wrong itself, is not at the beck and call of His creatures that He should justify Himself to them.

Yet.

One day it WILL become clear, though, such that every mouth that has questioned His wisdom will be stopped, and humbled. The sheer beauty and perfection of His purpose will stun every creature. It has to do with the eternal destiny of men and women.

18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God; 20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay... 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labour pains until now and not only the creation, but we ourselves... groan inwardly while we wait...

(from Romans chapter 8)

It all has to do with creating a longing and an expectation of what is to come...

reply to post by negue
Why do you think God is in charge the way some super-overseer might be? Why do we assume God created the world and is somehow allowing all of this to happen, even perhaps making it happen?

Mankind has for eons developed this myth of a Creator-God in charge, some kind of super-Entity - much like a child's image of their father: Someone who will take care of them if they are good, etc.

However, Unconditional Reality (or God or the Self or Buddha or Consciousness or the Divine, whatever term you prefer) is not causally related to conditions. Conditions arise as modifications of the Unconditional Reality, and such conditions have a cause-and-effect relationship with other conditions - but there is no such cause-and-effect relationship with Unconditional Reality or God.

And really, what kind of God would actually allow such atrocities to occur to innocents if such a causally-related God existed? No such God exists - that is the myth that mankind, based in the separative ego-I presumption, has developed as an extension of childhood and adolescence. This God-myth is certainly not the God that Jesus or the Buddha or other Spiritual Masters granted true practitioners access to.

Originally posted by negue
Also, I strongly believe they are watching us (either laughing or scratching their heads wondering where did they go wrong).

I have a question I have been meaning to ask for a very long time: you believe in God/Allah/Buddha. As long as you don't force your beliefs on me, all is fine. But have you ever asked YOUR God why does he let so many children suffer? Why does he allow kids to die? The most recent ones are those poor kids in Moore OK. But it is happening also in the Middle East, be it Syria, Iraq ect.
Why does God allow for so much war, hate and destruction? What satisfaction can be achieved when one family must live on without their father, be it an US soldier or an Iraqi one? Where is the justice in that? Where is the love and care in that?


Thank you!

why are your watchers and helpers laughing and
scratching thieir heads or their A** while all the pain and suffering goes on?

God created us with free will and our choice for a lot of things is sinful.

we choose vices over virtues.

the seven deadly sins.

reply to post by negue

But have you ever asked YOUR God why does he let so many children suffer? Why does he allow kids to die? The most recent ones are those poor kids in Moore OK. But it is happening also in the Middle East, be it Syria, Iraq ect. Why does God allow for so much war, hate and destruction? What satisfaction can be achieved when one family must live on without their father, be it an US soldier or an Iraqi one? Where is the justice in that? Where is the love and care in that?

the answer is very simple. This life is a test. God has given reprive to humans for a certain period and the objective is to seperate the good from the bad.
The wrongdoers and oppressors get more freedom to kill, hurt, cheat to make them seperate and leave no doubt how they are and they would have no defence when the judgement of God comes. The victims are tested in their patience and also with power when the victims overpower the oppressor, as to how justly they deal or are no better than their oppressors when they get power.
It would be made clear to each person as to exactly how he/she is by them recieving power, riches, comfort etc and how well they use these and by hurt and suffering and with what attitude they bear it. God knows it all but after the limited time is over each human will also know and judge himself/herself and no injustice will be done. There would be no excuse available for the wicked to escape judgement.

reply to post by deadeyedick


I read up on Karma ... and I'm not convinced that individual Karma happens.
There may be collective Karma .... that seems to be pretty obvious.
But as for an individual system that says a person suffers because they were bad
in this life or some other .... I dunno. Good people suffer. Bad people get
away with all sorts of stuff and don't suffer. So I don't buy that suffering
is paying for bad personal Karma. It may be .... but I don't see it.

reply to post by logical7

That's really a good answer. That explains the big political kinds of suffering rather well.
What is your response to individual suffering .... cancer in children ... young mothers suffering through breast cancer and dying and leaving their young children ... the blind ... the lame ...

I'm interested to see your response. Your first response was great ...

reply to post by negue

I believe you are one with your creator wherever you are, at home, at work, wherever.

I think that naturally, we feel at one with the material universe because we are a part of it.
We feel a connection with what "created" us which is nature, the same thing that will happily recycle your body once the breath leaves it.
This same thing that brought about your current mortal life is the same thing that brought about everyone else's lives.
Bad things in respect to our personal physical well being is natural in a material universe.
I don't think that God is in a position to make any drastic and sudden change in the nature of the universe.
God can and does do things on a smaller scale, such as within our biosphere, for individuals and groups and for mankind in general.
The solution, I think, to making the world a better place is for people to become engaged in what is going on, and realizing we have to deal with the world that we live in and that there is not another one that we can just go to where everything is perfect.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by logical7

 

That's really a good answer. That explains the big political kinds of suffering rather well.
What is your response to individual suffering .... cancer in children ... young mothers suffering through breast cancer and dying and leaving their young children ... the blind ... the lame ...

I'm interested to see your response. Your first response was great ...

i don't think cancer is "natural." its more a consequence of what we put in our body. God's advice is simple, "Eat the good and healthy natural things"
when we do that and show gratitude, the stress level is very less to absent. Stress, artificial colouring agents, preservatives are all factors that increase the chance of diseases, including cancers.
Some kids just have cancer with no explanation, they are a test for their parents, watching one's own kid suffer can break a parent and even shake the trust on God, its a test to let them know who they love more and do they think God is cruel and loves their kid less than they do, if they believe that, they reveal themselves as fair weather believers!
Mothers dying young can be a consequence of wrongs by others(food makers) or a test for people around who choose or refuse to care for the orphans.
Its very complicated for sure but nobody would be wronged ultimately. Even sufferings can be a mercy from God to make the individual return to God and become better. People tend to forget God when they are comfortable for too long and then can become arrogant and rude.

Sufferings are a way to bring disbelievers towards God and a way to expiate sins of believers if they bear them with patience.

Every time I have seen the title of this thread, I have just wanted to pop in and say....

"Why not?"

The world is good and bad, light and dark, good and evil.
We created these situations, so it is up to us to fix them.

Ok, that's about it from me.

Peace!

Originally posted by logical7
Sufferings are a way to bring disbelievers towards God and a way to expiate sins of believers if they bear them with patience.

thats what the Catholics believe. That's also what some Buddhists believe. There are 'suffering souls' who are chosen (or who choose to be suffering souls before they are incarnated) ... to suffer and expiate the sins (or bad karma) of others so that they may be free to receive grace (or free to get off the karma wheel)

reply to post by pause4thought


Really?!

You're going to use the Book of Job to explain the reason WHY there is suffering and injustice in the world?!

The Book of Job is a mythical story of long suffering, friendship and a tribute to the resilience of the human race in the light of a capricious God that is playing a "chess game" with Satan, and placing wagers on the life and musings of Job.

In the case of Job, there is 3rd party inflicting his suffering in a sadistic game, which isn't leveraged upon Job as a lesson or a punishment. Job's suffering is the result of a parlor game! It can't be compared to the reality of the actual suffering of huge swaths of humanity due to the human condition.

reply to post by FlyersFan

thats what the Catholics believe. That's also what some Buddhists believe. There are 'suffering souls' who are chosen (or who choose to be suffering souls before they are incarnated) ... to suffer and expiate the sins (or bad karma) of others so that they may be free to receive grace (or free to get off the karma wheel)

i would not agree to this, nobody is to suffer for the sins of someone else. A kid with cancer suffers but so do the parents and being patient is their test, the kid is not expiating sins of parents by suffering himself/herself. What the parents learn through it, depends on their attitude.
Each individual is on their own, why should someone take on sins of others, each has a brain to think and learn and is responsible for their own actions, good and bad. The "i can't save myself so someone please save me" mentality is really bad and counter-productive. It makes people care less about their own actions.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by deadeyedick

 

I read up on Karma ... and I'm not convinced that individual Karma happens.
There may be collective Karma .... that seems to be pretty obvious.
But as for an individual system that says a person suffers because they were bad
in this life or some other .... I dunno. Good people suffer. Bad people get
away with all sorts of stuff and don't suffer. So I don't buy that suffering
is paying for bad personal Karma. It may be .... but I don't see it.

God raises up who he wants and alot of what we view as bad people are serving his will sometimes. It is really not karma but more like spiritual debt. Sort of like a prison sentence that can be carried out in many different ways. Ultimately satan is the warden. Punishment for going against GOD is very real and happens all around us. We are born into sin. It is a vicious cycle. This is the reason Jesus died on the cross so when he returns he will wipe away our debt. The whole point of the human existence is to die with a spiritual abundance and graduate. Love is the key.

The vessel you are in closely matched your spiritual needs when you were born. Those needs are spiritual and the vessel cannot comprehend in most cases. The holy spirit helps with the matches and working out your life and is always there if you are off your path. There is also a plant that can reduce your negative debt over time but of coarse it is illegal.

Originally posted by logical7
People tend to forget God when they are comfortable for too long and then can become arrogant and rude.

More like ... people tend to become arrogant and rude whether they 'remember God' or not.
That's a personality thing ...

I got stuck living in Alabama for nine years. It was heavily populated with fundamentalist Christians. The vast majority I had to deal with were arrogant and rude. Judgemental.

I have had dealings with a few dozen 'Traditionalist Catholics' (St. Piux X). Arrogant. Posed as humble but were VERY judgemental.

Catholics I know ... those not involved with the church have been very nice. Those who get involved in committees and the such are usually arrogant and 'play important'. That's been my experience.

I have known a few dozen nuns over the years. About 3/4 were nice. 1/4 or so were mean and arrogant.

I have known a handful of Jews. Polite people. 1/2 were arrogant. 1/2 were down to earth.

I have had to deal with a few dozen Muslims over the years. Some were polite. Some were exceptionally rude. A handful were down right belligerent. In fact, the more the person claimed to know God .. the ruder they were.

I have had to deal with a handful of Nation of Islam. All were spooky ignorant and rude. All were belligerent. And these are people who claim to know God and do what God wants.

I lived in Japan for three years. It was heavily populated with Buddhists. The vast majority were exceptionally nice and polite. I do not know if it was because of Buddhism or if it was the Japanese culture. But they aren't of the Abrahamic religions at all ... but they were mostly the opposite of arrogant and rude.

I have had dealings with a few dozen Hindus. They are not of the Abrahamic religion. Those Hindus I have had dealings with were very nice. Humble and polite and friendly.

reply to post by logical7


Collective Karmic debt. Sin debt. Call it what you want.
This is the reason Jesus died for us ... for sinners.
He paid sin debt to free people.
I'm not surprised you don't believe it.
If you did ... you'd be Christian.
(or Buddhist if you bought collective Karmic debt)

reply to post by FlyersFan

More like ... people tend to become arrogant and rude whether they 'remember God' or not. That's a personality thing ...

i will completely agree with all your examples as its your experience and its worth learning from,
ya its a personality thing, all the rude people have ego!
They then wear the outward cloak of piousness and it just feeds their ego more, challenge or criticize them and see the ugly animal come out.

I am talking about a rapidly getting extinct minority of people whose egos diminish more the more they remember God.