Spirituality & Becoming What We Aren’t.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by NorEaster

 

We're mimicking the way that reality is structured.

Logic then dictates, that who-ever is responsible for the simulation we are/live in, also programmed all of this to replicate/mimic the way their reality is structured.

While I am pontificating here...."as above,so below" fascinates me. The simplicity of it is something that I delight in.

Yes, logic certainly would dictate. And the mystic traveler in me would also point out that many lines of teaching in religious thought assert that we are based on "there" (where ever/whatever "there" is).

And any realities we create will be the same, I am sure. And if our programs begin to program, I would bet that they use the same concepts we have. There are often discoveries of quaint and novel computational algorithms present in the real world. Such discoveries have fueled this very debate.

Originally posted by dominicus
Those who say it is not so, who haven't looked themselves, are window shopping speculators.

Bam. This is it. Right here.

reply to post by JoyofUnity

Could you explain this as well? Cheers

Yeah, check the last page of the Enlightenment Thread in my Signature. I already answered there since it's related to that thread.


reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

The sticking point for me is my wife and son.

That's a highly noble act in itself. Basically you're saying: Yes, I admit Enlightenment may be real, and as much as I'd like to pursue it, I need to raise my child, and be a husband, playing these roles to the best of my ability first and foremost. It is a noble act. However even in those instances, the daily occurrences with your family, all of that can temper you, reveal to you Love, empathy, selflessness, heart, etc etc. However being mindful of this is vital.

Leaving everyone and everything behind, for the pursuit of Truth and Enlightenment, is actually a very selfish act. However, the end result is pure selflessness and Divine unfiltered Universal Love.

You can chalk it all up to me needing to put to rest business from my younger years....but I am highly driven towards the two of them. There are many roads to salvation, I guess. If one of them does not pass through them, then I will be happily damned.

You're all good brother. If I was there, we'd twist the tops off a couple good cold kraft bruisers and have a laugh at all this serious business here.

In many Indian and Tibetan Cultures, when the children are grown/out of the house, the house hold duties set to a minimum of simple living, and with the Wife's blessing, the humble house holder, having fulfilled his duties and roles as father and husband, spends the remainder of his life in pursuit of Uncovering the Enlightened Nature that is Already waiting to be revealed within.

Also, physical death f the body will also reveal all truth on the other side.

I have greatly enjoyed reading your posts in this thread. And look forward to continuing to do so.

Thank you for that. I greatly enjoy that you exist, and are here with us, in thought, knives sharpening knives.

After reading some of the responses:

It seems quite clear that spirituality, as it is sold to us in its modern sense, amounts to no more than seducing another to our way of thinking (or not thinking in some cases). Why must continue to attempt to convince others with promises of eternal bliss, escape from thought, to feel like a drop of water in an endless ocean? In the hope that their conversion will justify our beliefs? How tragic.

What is apparent is that everyone has a different metaphysical interpretation of reality (“simulation”, the “great happening”, “all that is arising”, “God as Source of consciousness”—all interpretations of the same thing), a multitude of desires to reach various altered states of being (silence of mind, not having to worry, success, not having to think, “bliss”, understanding, drunkenness—all forms of common hedonistic and escapist impulses, a desire to be what we are not), and a different language through which they think and express themselves (abstract terms, concrete terms, religious terminology, scientific terminology, intuition, reason, emotion), and therefore the very idea of “spirituality” (a personal interpretation of reality and the code of life derived from it), once it leaves the subtle confines of personal thought to obvious dogma (you shall see it as I see it), becomes not spirituality, but perverted—it becomes religion.

Look how in this very thread, we are selling our opinions, dressing them up in all manner of seductive dress, giving reverence to Ideals by capitalizing a word or two, as if it could sell someone into thinking our version of a word and concept is somehow more powerful than its denotation. This is pathos. This is seduction, a swindle. This is superstition, the great faith in language, weakness to rhetoric and nothing besides. No wonder we are the religious animal; we are too easily sold on idea if it appeals to the emotions.

There can be no spirituality for all humans—all humans are already spiritual, and all humans are different. Once one attempts to convince another of his spirituality, it becomes searching for followers, power seeking, religion. It is not until one creates his own spirituality, from his own life, that he becomes distinct of religion, and a free spirit.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


I still see nothing wrong with hedonism.

LesMisanthrope not me, im the one who would hint or try to guide in order for others to figure their own answers to their questions, i have my good reasons mainly i dislike preaching & its my belief others need to grasp things in their own unique way !. I have warned others but still....

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

There can be no spirituality for all humans—all humans are already spiritual, and all humans are different. Once one attempts to convince another of his spirituality, it becomes searching for followers, power seeking, religion. It is not until one creates his own spirituality, from his own life, that he becomes distinct of religion, and a free spirit.

There are as many Ways/Paths/Spiritualalities as people.

I think you might be misinterpreting what many of us are saying. Which is, when you go deep within you will find a Truth, that everyone finds and is Universal. It is a direct experience prior to any religions/thoughts/followers/etc.

If I gave you a map to go see Niagara falls for yourself. You can: Deny it exists, speculate I'm selling religion, claim that only you have a map, make theories about my offer, control a map and charge for it, or you can go see for yourself.

That's what I'm saying. Everyone who goes and see's Niagara Falls, Universally experiences that place, moment, experience for what it is. In the moment, prior to thought, words, religions, constructs, and abstractions.

This is what many of us are saying because we have experienced a Universal something, and we are all in agreement on the actual experience. Now how to put into words something that is beyond all conceivable words..... well you see the trouble's with that, the countless threads, the circle jerks, the misunderstandings, the confusions.

But ........we come from that, and to that we all return eventually.

So it is an inevitability that we will all directly meet face to to face with the Source of our existence, one way or another. That you can count on, regardless of what goes on in these threads

reply to post by LesMisanthrope



How can you put yourself in a situation where you claim to have found the meaning in spirituality when your not even spiritual yourself?

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


when someone tries to sell another on an idea like religion/spirituality, they are essentially seeking validation for their ideas. Human thought states that might makes right. We tend to follow the fallacy of mob rule by our very nature. And we seek out those mobs as a source of validation.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Visitor2012

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

I have no idea what they perceived. And made no claim of such (reread). I only claim that what they have experienced is the same s the rest of us: what their senses allowed them to perceive.

I know this to be true because you cannot perceive anything you cannot sense, or you would not be perceiving it.

You said that their experience is the same as ours. And you know this how? Sense perception is a very limited perception, and their is perception that is beyond mind/body senses. I would gamble that these Monks have at least discovered that.

edit on 26-5-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

You are giving a supernatural spin and attempting to create an argument based on that fiction.

Until proven otherwise, all humans have the same perceptive capabilities, only in varying degrees from human to human. Some may see well, some may see not so well, some not at all. In general, however, eyes are part of the human. While i suppose it may be possible that some folks contain capabilities that no other has, that is a bit too messianic for my tastes, until it can be shown.

BTW, your paraphrasing of what I am saying just shows that you still don't understand. I would ask you to read it again, but it seems as though you just may not get it. If that is the case, just forget you read anything I wrote. Seriously.

I don't know why it is complicated for you to understand what I am asking you.I'm no longer interested in the answer.

reply to post by Tlexlapoca

How can you put yourself in a situation where you claim to have found the meaning in spirituality when your not even spiritual yourself?

Everyone is spiritual. Everyone is endowed with life and the tools to make sense of it, like any prophet, priest or sage. Whether anyone agrees with me or not is not my concern. I would rather they figure it out for themselves. I'm only pointing out the contradictions and paradoxes, signs that something is amiss.

reply to post by dominicus

So it is an inevitability that we will all directly meet face to to face with the Source of our existence, one way or another. That you can count on, regardless of what goes on in these threads

I say we already have and do so at every moment. All we need do is face it. Source, reality, being, God, whatever—we'll call it whatever is satisfactory, we'll always make it an ideal.

"LesMisanthrope"

-

I've waited a long while to post a reply -- To be sure-

All i want too say- To LesMisanthrope

Just look outside your door step, in every parts of this globe, these country(s) - It seems all along the lies that have hindered in your "thinking" of life- yet you fail to feel the concept/conquest that is all tied as WORLD event(s). And i think I can safely say that everyone is in the "Pool" of thoughts... No matter which way you look at it, religious, or non- There is much "Moving on" transforming all around us. History, and science have told us over and over again... In the forms of it- The scale as human mind(s) are in the tipping scale, and are moving on... just much like the rest of the world and the events.. moving on...

And i dont think spirituality is a label,. its only a label if you limit your way of thinking.... for any concept at that.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NorEaster

 

I saw a programme on tv where Richard Dawkins had a helmet put on to stimulate certain parts of his brain so he could experience the nothingness, the presence or whatever - he experienced something...
They have also done MRI scans on people meditating and their brains do something different to what is considered normal state.

edit on 26-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

I would never have done yoga and meditation, if it hadn't been prescribed to me on my national health service. NICE the national institute for clinical excellence, now recommends mindful based stress reduction (mbsr) for many cases, from the terminally ill to those with chronic pain.
There is wealth of scientific evidence using imaging MRI scans to prove that theses practices can change the structure of the brain.

After an 8 week course in mbsr, physical changes could be seen in the brain. Patients could handle their pain symptoms more effectively, those who were depressed, were less likely to need anti depressants and less likely to fall back into depression.

So from a purely scientific and medical perspective, these practices are extremely effective tools.

There is a very considerable body of research that speaks of its effectiveness in a wide variety of contexts. NICE (the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence) recommends it as a frontline treatment for relapsing depression.

Jan. 21, 2011 — Participating in an 8-week mindfulness meditation program appears to make measurable changes in brain regions associated with memory, sense of self, empathy and stress. In a study that will appear in the January 30 issue of Psychiatry Research: Neuroimaging, a team led by Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) researchers report the results of their study, the first to document meditation-produced changes over time in the brain's grey matter.

www.sciencedaily.com...

At my hospital, they have to call it, The Stress Reduction Clinic, so as not to scare anyone about these weird practices involved. Lol

reply to post by LesMisanthrope
An interesting title, LesMis - "Spirituality & Becoming What We Aren’t." - along with many excellent observations and insights in the opening post, and also by others.

However, your argument seems to be based on the presumption that we have already become something - i.e., the body-mind (ego-I). Upon closer inspection, what is the whole body-mind always up to? Seeking to become something else, to gain knowledge, power, things, to enjoy pleasurable "union" with objects of knowledge and others, to control, etc., etc. So I would think we can agree that the whole body-mind complex is a machine of constant seeking to become.

And yes, I agree that most religion and spirituality is, as you indicate, seeking to become something we are not - and, as such, is just more of the futile search of the body-mind.

And yes, the statement "spiritual but not religious" is generally a misguided notion because to truly be spiritual, one has to become truly religious. The basis for becoming truly religious is when one understands that he or she is identified by tendency with an extremely naive and humble body-mind.

In the face of infinite reality, we are indeed in a most dependent and humble condition! In any moment that one sees and feels this profoundly, beyond fear, there is spontaneous surrender to Reality itself, and religious devotion even. This understanding provides the basis for right life and action in the world. This is what Jesus, and other Spiritual Masters, are getting at when they speak of loving God (Reality) with the whole heart, soul, mind, and strength (body).

This whole bodily understanding is the basis for true religion, and without this proper foundation, so-called spirituality is a sham - generally these days based on some mental insight into the truth of non-duality. But such mental (perceptual/conceptual) insight only tends to exclude the body-mind, to promote notions of thoughtlessness, to avoid disciplining the body-mind, etc., - as you are also criticizing.

Thinking is just thinking - a pattern of the body-mind that spontaneously arises when necessary, and should disappear when unnecessary, when one is truly founded in Reality. There is nothing wrong with thinking per se, unless you are only and always identifying with it, rather than noticing it is simply the brain-mind complex doing its thing.

LesMis, you take a lot of conventional notions of various religious and spiritual practitioners, question them (which is very good) - but then you seemingly discard all possibility for practicing true religion and true spirituality based on the fact that they simply are further acts of seeking to become something we are not.

But the man or woman behind the mask of LesMis should also deeply inspect that this is what the whole body-mind is always doing whether it is being (or seeming to be) religious/spiritual or not. And to truly understand our Reality here, that self-enclosing/ego-defining search needs to be understood and transcended in each and every moment, through profoundly noticing (and even countering) this seeking mechanism of the whole body-mind at every level, and always in the context of the Reality in which we all arise.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by NorEaster

 

We're mimicking the way that reality is structured.

Logic then dictates, that who-ever is responsible for the simulation we are/live in, also programmed all of this to replicate/mimic the way their reality is structured.

Ever hear of the "Turtles, all the way down" argument. Your notion is in danger of sliding into that sort of reasoning if you can't allow for default cause-impact organization to exist.

Oh, and consciousness is the active and aware sense of self. Your statement concerning consciousness makes no sense. If that's also God, then I feel sorry for Him.

We are, in a sense, units of consciousness, like drops of water. God is the Source of Consciousness, like an Ocean, infinite, knowing and directly experiencing every single thought, blade of grass, strand of hair, molecule of existence, fragment of space, of all there is.

If you examine the physical nature of consciousness as an informational whole (which it is), you'll discover that it is actually much too contextually specific - and therefore isolated per immediate authoring source - for there to be any means by which a "parent" source of consciousness could ever exist relative to separate and fully cognizant "children" consciousness wholes. The logical implications would make such a descending structure impossible to initiate, let alone manage.

It's a great poetic illustration, but it's just not literally possible.

reply to post by bb23108

LesMis, you take a lot of conventional notions of various religious and spiritual practitioners, question them (which is very good) - but then you seemingly discard all possibility for true religion and true spirituality based on the fact that they simply are further acts of seeking to become something we are not.

But the man or woman behind the mask of LesMis should also deeply inspect that this is what the whole body-mind is always doing whether it is being (or seeming to be) religious/spiritual or not. And to truly understand our Reality here, that self-enclosing/ego-defining search needs to be understood and transcended in each and every moment, through profoundly noticing (and even countering) this seeking mechanism of the whole body-mind at every level, and always in the context of the Reality in which we all arise.

Thanks for sharing, bb.

The idea of transcending oneself, as you propose, removing oneself from original sin, is an attempt to become what one isn't. One who says he has transcended himself is still the same person.

One cannot transcend over anything he already is. We cannot simply remove aspects of ourselves, call ourselves spiritual, and be a completely new person. No, we're the same person no matter what we think or how we act. This needs to be addressed by all who claim themselves spiritual, or somehow paradoxically more human (our true nature) than what they already are.

Why do they tell us to stop thinking? Why do they tell us to meditate? Why must we pray? Why must we believe a certain doctrine or other? Why must we go to church? Why should we run from our reason? Why must we follow commandments? Why must engage in strange rituals?—they sell to us the idea that we need to escape ourselves, become something else, become like them! That is what modern spirituality amounts to these days: fear of oneself.

I think the first step is honesty. A "yes, this is what I am" accepting of oneself, to finally meet oneself in the flesh. From there we become sovereign over ourselves rather then executioner. That's it. Honesty is all spirituality calls for. Finally embrace oneself instead of transcend oneself.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

Why do they tell us to stop thinking? Why do they tell us to meditate? Why must we pray? Why must we believe a certain doctrine or other? Why must we go to church? Why should we run from our reason? Why must we follow commandments? Why must engage in strange rituals?—they sell to us the idea that we need to escape ourselves, become something else, become like them! That is what modern spirituality amounts to these days: fear of oneself.

I think the first step is honesty. A "yes, this is what I am" accepting of oneself, to finally meet oneself in the flesh. From there we become sovereign over ourselves rather then executioner. That's it. Honesty is all spirituality calls for. Finally embrace oneself instead of transcend oneself.

But what are you? Until you know what you are, you are running away from yourself. I agree that everyone is avoiding the void.
No one is telling you to be something else.
A case of misidentification causes all the suffering in the world.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

But what are you?

The answer to your question.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

But what are you?

The answer to your question.

Is that supposed to mean something?
I know what I am but do you know what you are? Because until you know for sure what you are - you will suffer. When you know for sure what you are - the suffering ceases.