Fine, let's START with love.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Love cannot be defined because love is without condition.
Prior to conception - prior to words that define - this is already unconditioned love. The mind (thoughts/words) has ideas about how it should be different.

I can't argue with that. Some will say that love between man and woman is not love, but lust. Some will say that the love of a parent is not love, but possession, just as I 'love' MY sister, 'love' MY dog. What is the love of a child to a parent? Trust, maybe?

So, I can't define love.

Originally posted by RothchildRancor

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by jiggerj

 

This should be fun... bare with me I just woke up... damn midnights...

You haven't had a job in two years. Your wife and 2 kids are depending on you to get this job you've applied for. Sitting next to you in the office is someone with 3 kids and hasn't had a job in five years. Are you just going to get up and leave so he can get the job, or will you think, "Screw you, buddy. I have a family too. I'm taking that job!"

This scenario wouldn't happen.... IF everyone was gushing love as you say... everyone would be able to get a job... and there would always be jobs available for everyone... Greed can not exist in a world full of love....

CEO's and the people at the top of the chain wouldn't be skimming off the top, they would take what they need and spread the wealth around.

You are introduced to someone that makes your heart pound. This person is gorgeous! You fantasize about starting a family with this person and living happily ever after. Guess what, though? You can tell that your best friend is thinking the same things about this beautiful person. Do you step aside and watch the love of your life slip through your hands? If you do step aside, will you be feeling love or misery?

You're confusing love with lust... Said person would accept the fact that there are plenty of fish in the sea... People would see past a persons looks, and see the qualities inside another person instead of automatically looking for the gorgeous type...

How many times in life would you step aside out of love for a friend or a sister or brother

As many times as needed...

You have a sibling a year older than you. This sibling, however, seems to have been born with natural abilities far exceeding yours. This sibling is better at sports, better in school, better at making friends... How long before your love of this sibling gets reduced to envy, or downright hatred. You know it's not his fault that he was born this way, but how do you keep the love? Or, if you are a parent of these two, how do you help your youngest maintain the love?

Jealousy and envy are not qualities of love... Unless of course you're an Old testament fan..

Said person would accept the fact that his brother is better then him at certain things... No one is "the best" at anything... theres always someone better...

That brother would support his older sibling in his endeavors... and find something that makes him happy... and that hes good at...

NEXT?

edit on 24-5-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

All of those answers are assuming that all or most people maintain logic over succumbing to personal gain.

That is just not true, sir!

it would be an illogical world though... Personal gain is logical... to serve the self is logical...

There isn't anything logical about serving others... its a choice you make which goes against the grain...

IF the world Gushed love as the OP stated... logic would have nothing to do with it...

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Love cannot be defined because love is without condition.
Prior to conception - prior to words that define - this is already unconditioned love. The mind (thoughts/words) has ideas about how it should be different.

I can't argue with that. Some will say that love between man and woman is not love, but lust. Some will say that the love of a parent is not love, but possession, just as I 'love' MY sister, 'love' MY dog. What is the love of a child to a parent? Trust, maybe?

So, I can't define love.

edit on 5/26/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

you're not trying hard enough...

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Love cannot be defined because love is without condition.
Prior to conception - prior to words that define - this is already unconditioned love. The mind (thoughts/words) has ideas about how it should be different.

I can't argue with that. Some will say that love between man and woman is not love, but lust. Some will say that the love of a parent is not love, but possession, just as I 'love' MY sister, 'love' MY dog. What is the love of a child to a parent? Trust, maybe?

So, I can't define love.

edit on 5/26/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Love is the space in which all things appear. It is unconditioned.

Love is not for someone or for some thing. It is that which allows all things to be - including thought. Presence.

The truth about the emotion we call 'love' continues to be undermined,twisted, and even completely ignored, in favor of highly fantastical and speculative subjective opinions about said emotion, usually embraced in the false ideologies of the spiritual/religious-minded. It's very sad to me that we ignore the truth about our own emotions as a species and quite willingly embrace fantasy because the truth can be ugly and reprehensible.

Love and compassion: hormonal and chemical changes in the body, designed to bond social primates together thru their children, family, friends and companions, in the end to keep the species strong and to reproduce and perpetuate survival.

Not much different than an anthill really.

The emotion we call 'love' and how we choose to interpret it's function is a perfect example of how confused we really our about ourselves and how we will willingly embrace BS rather than to accept any real objective truths about ourselves.

C'mon, Jiggerj... You have had all night, where's your counter-argument for my answer?

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Love is not for someone or for some thing. It is that which allows all things to be - including thought. Presence.

I would have thought that to be Will. To *will* all things to be. I don't see how love is needed for that.

'Romantic' love between man and a woman.

If love were what the spiritual types claim it is (which can be seen to be utterly false, over and over again), there would be truly no conditions, no boundries. But there are always conditions and boundries. Ninety year olds generally don't fall in love with twenty year olds (unless there is money involved). People who get married are statistically always somewhat close in age. That's just one example that you can give to show that there are always conditions... conditions that most generally don't recognize, or will completely refuse to if it doesn't conform to their own belief system about love. Why are those close in age usually the ones to fall in 'love'? The answer is obvious. Why does everyone seek the emotion called 'romantic love' to begin with?

This thread is proof most people are confused about the emotion called 'love' and can only make attempts to rationalize it by mudding about and coming up with their own subjective opinions: when love isn't this wonderful warm thing full of hugging moments, we scratch our heads and make statements like "well, that isn't real love, right??". Lust can't be love can it??? Someone obsessed with someone else; that's 'bad' or 'twisted' love, right?

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Love is not for someone or for some thing. It is that which allows all things to be - including thought. Presence.

I would have thought that to be Will. To *will* all things to be. I don't see how love is needed for that.

Love is the space which all things appear in - the space allows all - it is unconditioned.
This is presence right here and right now - it does not say what can be and what can't be - it just is.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Great way of putting it. The universe (space) is love because it has provided everything we could ever want or need for FREE, no strings attached.

We have the FREE gift of life and that's a really beautiful thing.

reply to post by jiggerj
I agree, humans were not meant for love, not being predators anyway. I don't think you can have it both ways, but hay, I could be wrong.

I wonder if the people that are coming back with comments disagreeing with you are ready to go over to Sweden and spread a little love, I'm sure they could use it about now.

Be a true test of there beliefs and will power.........................before the realism sets in that is.

Originally posted by seamus
C'mon, Jiggerj... You have had all night, where's your counter-argument for my answer?

You missed some of the points, but all in all I'd have to agree. The love you describe is not all peace with a bunch of smiley-faced people handing out flowers on the street corner. Let the love-wishers know that love is not magic. They can't just sit in a quiet room and exude love for the world and expect everything to magically fix itself because of them.

As for the idea that the world IS love. I can't prove that it isn't if you cannot accept the full range of human emotions. The world is love, hate, giving, greedy, positive, negative, tolerant, intolerant, intelligent, stupid, at peace, war-torn, paradise, hell, moving toward order, moving toward chaos.

The world is all things all the time.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by seamus
C'mon, Jiggerj... You have had all night, where's your counter-argument for my answer?

You missed some of the points,

oops i thought i hit them all. would you mind reiterating? Sometimes I see two statements as building together into one idea rather than being separate, so that could be why.

but all in all I'd have to agree. The love you describe is not all peace with a bunch of smiley-faced people handing out flowers on the street corner. Let the love-wishers know that love is not magic. They can't just sit in a quiet room and exude love for the world and expect everything to magically fix itself because of them.

well that's sort of the idea. The kind of love I'm talking about is being kind first to yourself. For me (and some others) that means letting go of the ropes. The idea that the world needs to be fixed is part of the problem we're facing. I espouse a 'hands off' method of existence. Trying to micro-manage it with our greatest minds has gotten us to a pretty scary place. But I trust nature to do what is necessary. If that means human consciousness perishes from existence, why would I want to fight that? To think that we are important puts far too much pressure on us to perform in ways we've proven ourselves to be incapable of performing. To relieve yourself of the pressure to 'make the world better' is one of the kindest things you can do, and in my case has given me space to be sweet and compassionate when necessary and to be hard and mean when circumstances call for it; both without judging myself as being 'good' or 'bad'.

As for the idea that the world IS love. I can't prove that it isn't if you cannot accept the full range of human emotions. The world is love, hate, giving, greedy, positive, negative, tolerant, intolerant, intelligent, stupid, at peace, war-torn, paradise, hell, moving toward order, moving toward chaos.

Well, I'm talking about a more primordial love. Emotions are felt by beings that, according to current science, are composed completely of energy. The love I'm talking about IS that energy. It's not an emotion. Now, this is just how I have chosen to define my experience. You could, if it were of benefit to you, define all that exists as jealousy. However, I see the universe acting more in accord with the attributes of love (patience, kindness, equanimity, humility) than with those of jealousy. Maybe that's because love is what I'm looking for as a benchmark.

The world is all things all the time.

Quite so, especially for people. It is hellish, it is heavenly, it is sad, and it is happy. There is room in love for pain and pleasure both.

You can punch a guy in the face and still love him if the situation asks for it (self defense for example).

Originally posted by mrwupy

Then I discovered love.

Love is the only true thing of value you can gather in this life, and it’s the only true thing of value you can take when you leave it.

Love is a lie. You have one more stage to go through. Then you'll hit bliss.

There, you can finally rest. All the illusions fade away, the things you thought were important, are not.

They were not real.

You discover that you were in love with your own imagination. Your thoughts, your beliefs, your attachments.

When you give up "I", "me", "mine", then, the door opens to the final chamber. If there's no you, who does the loving?

We rest in bliss.

reply to post by SQUEALER


Bliss, Love, Joy... they are all different words for the same experience.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by RothchildRancor

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by jiggerj

 

This should be fun... bare with me I just woke up... damn midnights...

You haven't had a job in two years. Your wife and 2 kids are depending on you to get this job you've applied for. Sitting next to you in the office is someone with 3 kids and hasn't had a job in five years. Are you just going to get up and leave so he can get the job, or will you think, "Screw you, buddy. I have a family too. I'm taking that job!"

This scenario wouldn't happen.... IF everyone was gushing love as you say... everyone would be able to get a job... and there would always be jobs available for everyone... Greed can not exist in a world full of love....

CEO's and the people at the top of the chain wouldn't be skimming off the top, they would take what they need and spread the wealth around.

You are introduced to someone that makes your heart pound. This person is gorgeous! You fantasize about starting a family with this person and living happily ever after. Guess what, though? You can tell that your best friend is thinking the same things about this beautiful person. Do you step aside and watch the love of your life slip through your hands? If you do step aside, will you be feeling love or misery?

You're confusing love with lust... Said person would accept the fact that there are plenty of fish in the sea... People would see past a persons looks, and see the qualities inside another person instead of automatically looking for the gorgeous type...

How many times in life would you step aside out of love for a friend or a sister or brother

As many times as needed...

You have a sibling a year older than you. This sibling, however, seems to have been born with natural abilities far exceeding yours. This sibling is better at sports, better in school, better at making friends... How long before your love of this sibling gets reduced to envy, or downright hatred. You know it's not his fault that he was born this way, but how do you keep the love? Or, if you are a parent of these two, how do you help your youngest maintain the love?

Jealousy and envy are not qualities of love... Unless of course you're an Old testament fan..

Said person would accept the fact that his brother is better then him at certain things... No one is "the best" at anything... theres always someone better...

That brother would support his older sibling in his endeavors... and find something that makes him happy... and that hes good at...

NEXT?

edit on 24-5-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

All of those answers are assuming that all or most people maintain logic over succumbing to personal gain.

That is just not true, sir!

it would be an illogical world though... Personal gain is logical... to serve the self is logical...

There isn't anything logical about serving others... its a choice you make which goes against the grain...


IF the world Gushed love as the OP stated... logic would have nothing to do with it...

Indeed. I agree.
I would've not had my current job this long without the quest for personal gain.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
reply to post by SQUEALER

 

Bliss, Love, Joy... they are all different words for the same experience.

There are subtle but critical distinctions.

Love is directed at something outside the self. You love your wife, love your children, love your work, etc..

Bliss is a state of being that is not directed at anything. Some say bliss is love of god, whom you cannot see, but feel is there, through the experience itself. But, it's not directed at any visual phenomena.

You can sit in meditation, close your eyes, and experience bliss.

Love also makes the physical heart glad, and it responds to the emotion, but bliss is beyond the physical heart.

Okay, here goes.

I agree that we currently live in a dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest world. And I don't much like it.

But to me, the whole point of living (admittedly I approach it from a spiritual as opposed to a biological viewpoint) is to become MORE than just an animal that focuses purely on its own survival.

Have you ever had a moment where you really, REALLY wanted to do something selfish and animalistic - like punch some guy square in the face, or eat something delicious that wasn't yours, or run away from something that scared you - but you managed to conquer these feelings, and were proud of yourself for doing so?

Those moments where we exercise control over the reptilian part of our brains, where we manage to tame our baser instincts - those are true moments of progress.

It's all very well to say "It's not a perfect, loving world, and it never will be," but that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because it makes people cynical and tells them that being selfless is pointless / meaningless.

The sad truth is that, yes, with the world the way it is, those who go through their lives trying to be kind and selfless and loving will get screwed over. Things will not work out well for them. Many of them know this, and yet they do it anyway, because they believe that there are more important things than their own survival and wellbeing. They believe that by setting a positive example, they might be able to make a difference somewhere down the line.

The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.

~ Nelson Henderson

This is my belief. And yes, I struggle with it frequently, because no-one wants to be the nice guy that finishes last all the time.

I think it all boils down to what your definition of "success" is. If you measure "success" in terms of your financial status, your job, your car, how others see you, etc., then you are probably going to spend your life looking after yourself more than anyone else.

For me, personally, a "successful" life is one I can measure in terms of how many other people's lives I have had a positive effect on. That is why I try to exercise love / compassion / kindness as much as possible. I'm no saint, I mess up a fair bit - but if we constantly strive to better ourselves, we pave the way for a better future than if we just shrug our shoulders and say "This is all we will ever be."

... and let the scorn come flooding forth!

reply to post by SQUEALER


True love isn't love directed at anything in particular, but that which engulfs the entirety of existence.