Pope Francis: Even Atheists are Redeemed

reply to post by windword


He said meet us in goodness.

Hurray for Pope Francis to be the first Pope to declare the true Gospel message of the all-inclusive Christ.

Once again I'm forced to applaud this Pope for what he's doing and saying.

Thumbs up Francis.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by windword

 

Dear windword,

You're definitely very near the tippy-top of posters, thanks. (And if you tell anybody I said "tippy-top," I'll come and steal your cookies.)

Charles,
Your secret's out! Have some cookies!



I don't mean to be critical, but I don't see the metaphor. Am I the family watch or the family member who pawned the family watch? If Jesus pays the pawn ticket, the family member still has the original cash in his pocket, but Jesus get's to keep his family's watch.

Consider Adam and Eve. I'm not advancing any opinion on whether there were just the two of them, etc. The point is that they were in a state where sin didn't even exist. They were given instructions and chose to disobey them, thereby sinning and getting evicted from Paradise for ever.

They were in a state where sin didn't exist, until they sinned.

Jesus got us back to where we stand at the open door of Paradise and gives each of us a choice. Walk in, or follow evil and become Kings in our own territory outside of Heaven.

I don't understand this. ^

Either choose Jesus or choose evil? Where is the door of Paradise? When did Adam and Eve ever stand at that door, and how did Jesus bring us backI

I don't believe that the mythology of the symbolic sacrifice of Jesus was meant to represent redemption for only "good" people, but to elevate the very attributes that are allowed to persist throughout the future.

We're back into the jungle of words again. If it was just a symbolic sacrifice, "representing" something, I'd be a lot less impressed. But you're right, it isn't just for good people. He died for everybody, and specifically said He had come for the sinners.

Since I don't believe the story of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus to be true, I can only compromise by accepting the story as mythical symbolism representing an ideal of redemption. Whatever Jesus accomplished in the story, is accomplished with out the need of my personal acknowledgement. His success can't be based on whether or not people believe the biblical story, but on the integrity of his actions. If he succeeded, he did so regardless of what people think or believe.

What good is the sacrifice of Jesus if he couldn't reach into the deepest perversions of humanity and redeem humanity as a holistic body of consciousness? After all, he is called the "Son of Man".

I'm a little confused by the words here. I'm not sure what a "holistic body of consciousness" is. I have to make do with the belief that He came to redeem me, you, every individual.

I mean the holistic spirit of mankind as a whole, and the idea that none are saved until all are saved. It's about humanity, not every man for himself. Although, I do believe what "Sting" sang to be true.

"Men go crazy in congregations
But they only get better
One by one One by one..."

Try this. America was set free from the tyranny of the British. That's not a guarantee that we won't choose to submit to some other tyranny (representing going back into bondage to Satan). Here on ATS, many think we already have.

Freedom is not free, it requires vigilance. Freedom for a few, unfortunately, requires the servitude others. None are truly free unless all are free.

I'm confused here, but that happens a lot. I thought we were redeemed by Jesus, and got to heaven through love and faith. Good deeds are often a sign we have that faith...............

Love of what and faith in what?

Hope this clears up any fuzziness on my point of view.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by windword

 

He said meet us in goodness.

Hurray for Pope Francis to be the first Pope to declare the true Gospel message of the all-inclusive Christ.

Once again I'm forced to applaud this Pope for what he's doing and saying.

Thumbs up Francis.

Are you familiar with Carlton Pearson, who was kicked out of Oral Robert's ministries for preaching "The Gospel of Inclusion?"

Good ole Francis i always wondered about pigmeys in darkest deepest Peru and how they got to heaven if they hadn't seen anyone to tell them about God and Jesus

All's well that ends well goodie goodie gum drops.

Vatican Representative: Just to Be Clear, Atheists Are Still Going to Hell

As the Pope’s words made their way around the world, a Vatican spokesman (Rev. Thomas Rosica) had to do some damage control and remind everybody that atheists, in fact, are going to hell unless they accept Jesus

www.patheos.com...

It looks like Vatican spokesman, Rev. Thomas Rosica, is superseding the Pope on this one. I wonder if he will still have a job in Vatican City this time next week?

reply to post by LeatherNLace


Damage control! They can't let those pesky atheists think they're not going to burn and suffer forever! Because they definitely are.

reply to post by LeatherNLace


I don't believe it for a minute he's far to nice a wee man Francis is to mean that, i'm sure yer man's wrong about the hell bit, ole hell monger that he is

reply to post by windword


"Pope Francis declared that atheists that "do good deeds" will go to heaven."

Assuming he is right, the good deeds represent the work of redemption and Christ was unnecessary. Assuming he is wrong, then good deeds are not necessary and it was Christ's deeds that made the difference. This is not what he is saying. He is saying that Christ was not necessary and the deeds themselves pay the penitently for sin. If he was also implying that Christ was necessary, then faith is not necessary, but good deeds triumph over faith. What does scripture teach?

Ephesians 2

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

Grace is unmerited favor. We cannot merit God's forgiveness. What pathway does grace come? Through faith. Who imparts faith? God. Who judges the heart?

John 2

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.[d] 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

Ephesians 2

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

NOT by works, so that no one can boast.

How then? Our works cannot save us. Christ and faith are the key. Christ did what we cannot. Faith is the mechanism for bridging the gap. God gives the faith.

Does an Atheist have faith in God?

Luke 12

42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

There is a place set aside for unbelievers.

2 Corinthians 6

14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”[c]
17 Therefore,

“Come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”

Here, the unbeliever is compared to an unclean thing. What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?

2 Corinthians 4

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.

FOR HIS SAKE! Their god keeps them blind. They cannot see the gospel.

The Pope is a false teacher, but only assuming these were his words quoted in the OP.

John 3:16

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

WHO? The good news is, as the fire approaches, few will be unyielding by the end. Belief will come in time. On this note, the Pope could be right that many Atheists will have reason to believe. Our approaching destruction is by fire. Water puts out fire and that water belongs to the one giving it. Faith is required.

reply to post by LeatherNLace


Of course! We need the Vatican to reinterpret what the Pope meant while he was interpreting for us what Jesus really meant!

reply to post by windword


Reading over the quote in the OP carefully, I believe he meant we will meet "doing good", not we will meet in heaven.

If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there."

Basically, we will come together in doing good deeds. We will have common ground, so to speak. And from there, we can move toward changing the atheists' minds. That's what I think he meant.

As far as his spokesman... who outranks whom?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by windword

 

He said meet us in goodness.

Hurray for Pope Francis to be the first Pope to declare the true Gospel message of the all-inclusive Christ.

Once again I'm forced to applaud this Pope for what he's doing and saying.

Thumbs up Francis.

Here is the news story from the NY Daily: LINK

reply to post by windword


His quote from 1981 is somewhat true: “All are redeemed and called to share in glory in Jesus Christ, without any distinction of language, race, nation or culture,” the Polish pontiff said back in 1981.

Christ redeemed all things unto himself, but it is clear that some enter the New Jerusalem and the Kingdom and some are left outside the city gates. We can view this symbolically or literally. It also speaks of casting some into outer darkness and a place prepared specifically for unbelievers. If we take Enoch seriously, he also speaks of this same place.

Deep are all Thy secrets and innumerable,
And Thy righteousness is beyond reckoning.
4 We have now learnt that we should glorify
And bless the Lord of kings and Him who is king over all kings.
5 And they shall say:

(THEY: Unbelievers)

Would that we had rest to glorify and give thanks
And confess our faith before His glory !
6 And now we long for a little rest but find it not:
We follow hard upon and obtain (it) not:
And light has vanished from before us,
And darkness is our dwelling−place for ever and ever:
7 For we have not believed before Him
Nor glorified the name of the Lord of Spirits, [nor glorified our Lord]
But our hope was in the sceptre of our kingdom,
And in our glory.
8 And in the day of our suffering and tribulation He saves us not,
And we find no respite for confession
That our Lord is true in all His works, and in His judgements and His justice,
And His judgements have no respect of persons.

---This was a description of thoughts in the Outer Darkness. Believers choose the light and see by it.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


But, how can we ignore this:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good

The Lord HAS (past tense) redeemed ALL OF US!

"Father, the atheists? Even the atheists!" Not, "Even the atheists, once they accept Jesus."

Everyone is commanded to do good, so those that "do good" are following the Lord's commandments. We all will meet while doing the Lord's work.

That's the way I read it. Unless, he didn't mean what he said.

reply to post by windword


If we all did good toward one another, this WOULD be paradise. No need to wait after this life because it can be achieved in this one, if only people tried.

Unfortunately, the bible and churches teach that works don't matter and that all you need is faith. We see where that has gotten us.

reply to post by windword


I didn't ask anyone to commit suicide for me. If I had been asked, I would've said no, and then placed that man in an institution for the insane.

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

Those cookies were delicious! I saved one to show my friends. (Well, my one, imaginary friend.) And excellent questions. (By "excellent," I mean "challenging.")

Let's start where you did, the bit about the watch.

At the start, in the Garden, we had souls, spiritual centers, universal cores, whatever you want to call them, which were pure and everything was going along quite nicely, thank you. Then we decided to take Satan up on his offer, pawn our souls for well, whatever he was offering. Life thereafter went to hell.

Jesus came and offered to get our souls out of hock. He paid Satan for them, and returned them to us, saying "Take care of these souls, I died so you could get them back, don't screw it up this time." (That's not a literal translation. )

Let me take another crack at this Garden of Eden stuff. I'm willing to accept that it's probably symbolic of something, but all we've got are symbols, so far now, I'll stick with it. Although, if you want to think of it as a good and holy life in general, I won't argue.

With Jesus' sacrifice, He told us that Heaven was now open to us. Not the Garden of Eden anymore, because that was a worldly garden, and we had botched that, but an eternal Garden with Him. Prior to that, we didn't really have a chance at Heaven, we all carried sin with us. Now Jesus gives us the Garden of Eden choice again. We can either set God up as the model we aspire to and follow His instructions, or use ourselves as the highest authority and sell ourselves back to the pawnshop. (I really don't like my writing in this paragraph. Right now I don't know how to fix it.)

Either choose Jesus or choose evil? Where is the door of Paradise? When did Adam and Eve ever stand at that door, and how did Jesus bring us backI

I was getting much too symbolic, sorry. The door of paradise is the decision point. The place where we choose what we're going to do about God. If we want to be with Him, it's possible to walk in. If we don't want to be with God for eternity, we can walk away. In the end, every place that isn't with God is Hell. Adam and Eve stood at that door when they listend to the serpent in the Garden. They could, and did, choose. We've been wandering lost ever since. Jesus brought us back to where we do have a second chance to choose, the door of paradise again.

Since I don't believe the story of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus to be true,

I think it's pretty well established that there was a Jesus and that he was killed by crucifixion. Where we go from there, though, is where the questions come in. He existed, but did He do miracles? Is he God? There won't be 100% proof in this world, but I think there's enough evidence to make belief in Him, as a miracle working God, very acceptable.

I can only compromise by accepting the story as mythical symbolism representing an ideal of redemption.

You more imaginative than I am. If I thought that was all there was to it, I'd chuck religion, too. But about your ideal of redemption. Do you think we redeem ourselves? Or do we need an outside "something?"

Whatever Jesus accomplished in the story, is accomplished with out the need of my personal acknowledgement. His success can't be based on whether or not people believe the biblical story, but on the integrity of his actions. If he succeeded, he did so regardless of what people think or believe.

Absolutely agreed, but if somebody pushes me out of the path of a speeding car, I think I owe him some gratitude even though he succeeded without my belief.

I mean the holistic spirit of mankind as a whole, and the idea that none are saved until all are saved. It's about humanity, not every man for himself.

As I understand you on this issue, I think I'll have to disagree.

Love of what and faith in what?

Remember the verses? Love God, and your neighbor as yourself?

Faith in God and Jesus as much as you can know Them. What's the sense in offering someone a rope in a rescue if they don't have faith that it will support their weight?

I'm really dissatisfied with my writing here for some reason. Let me know where I'm really off, and if you have the patience, let me try again.

With respect,
Charles1952

Mhmm, you folks thought you were off the hook huh!

reply to post by Nephalim


I'm a good boy. Every Christmas Santa gives me the best gifts of all the children because of how good I am. :p

reply to post by Lazarus Short


Don't worry about Hitler and what happened to him after death. What's the point?

People need to focus on themselves and work on being the best person that they can be. Everything at the end is what it is.

Francis just lost a superb amount of respect from me.

Such a shame. He was doing so good, up until he spouts of universalist nonsense. What will they be redeemed from exactly? Because it won't be Hell.