Where Are We Now? Post Feminism and the Modern World

Originally posted by smyleegrl

1. How would you define feminism?

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

1. I define it as women (sometimes men) who generally fight for women's rights, ideally for equality between the sexes but sometimes unfairly just for the interest of empowering women.

2. No, I do not. I think we are getting there, but slowly. (I'll discuss that further below.)

3. I've heard how women get favored over men in court over divorce (especially when it comes to the kids and home,) and I've heard (and seen) how men get promoted over women (even if the woman was more experienced and more competent.) There seems to be a lot of double standard action in motion.

4. The only society in history that had true equality between my sexes to my knowledge was the ancient Celts. Many people do not know this, but in their tribes, by law, women had the right to do anything the men could do. They could even fight as warriors alongside the men. Half of all their druids were women! I've been druids depicted in film but they're always depicted as men with long beards! And druids were not just priests, they were also the artists, poets, teachers, philosophers and leaders of their societies. They elected the tribe's ruler. There were strict laws in place and it worked, to such an extent that I can think of no other comparison.


Just how much sexism exists in the modern world is a very difficult thing to estimate, even for me (a heterosexual male who’s hung out with many other heterosexual males of various ages when no women were around.) A lot of men sound sexist to me in talking with them, but it’s difficult to say how much of this is just trying to sound cool to the other guys.

I have had a number of young guys (in their early-to-mid 20’s) actually complain to me solely about how their girlfriend or fiancée won’t give them head or anal sex. Meanwhile I’ve known couples were couldn’t even have sex because one of them was dying, suffering through cancer or other health crises. I felt like saying something snide, but I admit, I’ll usually just feign sympathy...as uncomfortable as I feel doing it. As the older one, I feel that I should let them know how wrong this pig-headed thinking is, but, you know social politics. I’ve lost a number of friends in the past for being honest.

As for actual misogyny (hatred of women,) it’s really hard to say. A lot of young guys regard women (partially) as a means to prove their manhood and feel better about themselves, and some never really grow out of this. I don’t know how many middle-aged men I’ve seen leave their wives for someone younger (but vice-versa happens too.) But I've known married men who seemed gentlemanly to casually discuss their elicit affairs as if they were discussing TV shows.

I think that there is something hateful about pornography because it diminishes women into tools for men’s sexual gratification. I’m not sure how graphic ATS will allow me to get here, but we should all understand what porn is about. The docu “After Porn Ends” explains it pretty well (it’s on Netflix.) A lot of kids see these films with such Internet access, now even on cell phones. They have ease of access to all manner of smut and their minds are being polluted by this filth at too young of an age and this will only make things worse in my opinion. It makes young guys expect their girlfriends to be like whores (porn stars) in private and yet like ladies in public. I’ve even heard young women complain about exactly this.

As for real hatred of women, I’d think you’d have to look to websites devoted to Marquis de Sade, etc. I honestly think it’s pretty rare. For the most part, it’s just sexist attitudes driven from the crazy sex drive guys have and the expectations being fed to them by ease-of-access smut which many young guys are watching daily, for free.

I believe in freedom of speech, etc., but since I was a teenager myself I’ve been saying that kids should not have unmonitored access to the Internet. And I’m not talking about one adult in the room, I mean a number of them, to watch all screens. Emails are a private thing, but the videos, photos and some of the web content is absolutely not appropriate for kids, in my opinion.

I should also add that even discussing sexism seems to be taboo these days, as if it no longer exists, even though it does. On YouTube, if ever someone posts a video about sexism I know before going to it that there will be thumbs down (even if that person rarely gets them) just for discussing the topic. A lot of guys have a really bitter attitude about it even being brought up, which I find interesting.

Originally posted by theMediator
It's only natural some will try to have more than others.

If power shifts too much, we will surely have masculinity movements and I will gladly join if I feel something must be done to bring back equality in rights.

Perhaps you may want to realize how the real world works.

Those who have won power will never freely relinquishes their power without bloodshed. Time and time, this human nature had proven true. Every means would be mobilized against you, by hook or by crook, to ensure their power remains and you the loser every which you turn, and when talking becomes impossible, violence becomes inevitable, and by then, and even then, would you take up arms against women?

Thus the need to seriously discuss and debate over this issue while talking is still possible.

I do not condone men dominating women, nor women dominating men. That was not what the fight for women's right was for. It was meant for BOTH men and women fairly to share our world in peace, complimenting each other and contributing to the evolution of our race.

I do not condone men dominating women, nor women dominating men. That was not what the fight for women's right was for. It was meant for BOTH men and women fairly to share our world in peace, complimenting each other and contributing to the evolution of our race.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


Very well said.

I'm somewhat surprised that, so far, everyone is sociologically/culturally speaking, without including the very influential primordial/evolutionary mammilian hardwiring in each gender, which feminism ignores.

Originally posted by specialcategory
I'm somewhat surprised that, so far, everyone is sociologically/culturally speaking, without including the very influential primordial/evolutionary mammilian hardwiring in each gender, which feminism ignores.

Can you explain this further?

reply to post by smyleegrl


I think the user is mentioning that each gender does have their differences because of evolution. Like say for instances men are considerably stronger. I'm just trying to clear up the comment.

reply to post by Phoenix267


I think that's what they meant, too, but the wording is pretty darn confusing.

I don't think feminism ignores that. Some people may ignore that, however. I don't know how anyone could ignore that women and men are different... I consider myself a pretty strong feminist and I recognize that there are, generally speaking, physical differences as well as differences in mental abilities, as illustrated by our various strengths and weaknesses. But I don't think the fact that someone has a certain genitalia should EVER be the deciding factor and prohibit someone from doing something.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Phoenix267

 

I think that's what they meant, too, but the wording is pretty darn confusing.

I don't think feminism ignores that. Some people may ignore that, however. I don't know how anyone could ignore that women and men are different... I consider myself a pretty strong feminist and I recognize that there are, generally speaking, physical differences as well as differences in mental abilities, as illustrated by our various strengths and weaknesses. But I don't think the fact that someone has a certain genitalia should EVER be the deciding factor and prohibit someone from doing something.

Agree completely.

We are different, yes....but that difference doesn't give one sex the right to subjugate the other.

well this may only apply toi people i have met in my life. but i have noticed a complete lack of skills from females.
i am 29. all my male friends can cook/bake, clean (yes it shouldnt even be considered a skill but apparently it is), garden, and sew repairs or hem clothing.
while every female my age'ish lacks all knowledge of such things.

not to say men are picking up "woman jobs" or anything. but isnt this about equality? both genders should be able to do all of these things in at least the basic levels. yet woman my age dont seem to be skilled in anything.

"guy" skills like car maintenance is still a guy thing i guess. and anything that slightly requires a knowledgeable computer user, would have to be male as well. and i wasnt even aware computers were a boy thing. but i guess time has shown it is...

my point is. if i wasnt such a pig and want hetero sex; would i even WANT a household in the future with a girl? its like shes going to be my burden 9/10 of females i may meet.

excuse the grammar please. i am stuck in rush hour and on my phone here. (yes and i can drive and txt without hitting people) (/joke)

The first thing that comes to mind when I hear, "feminism" is "butch". I dont really think there is that much inequality. But gender roles are real. The more women try to do man stuff, the more masculine they are. And im not cool with that. I mean you dont see many women in the ufc, but if you do, shes probably a feminist. I think its sick though. Feminists all seem to lack one very important thing. Femininity.

i think the fall of marriage success was due to gender roles disappearing, or the over-equality.
not that any specific jobs/errands/responsibilities need to be done by a specific gender. but that the couple shouldnt be sharing it all. its like you need to create the dependance for each other in one way or another.

because love is not all you need... marriage needs to serve a purpose. and if the american dream has died, you need to to still find that purpose.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Feminists all seem to lack one very important thing. Femininity.

Damn, bro you need to get out more. All the women I know won't put up with male macho BS but
they have no problem expressing their sexuality in the most alluring ways.

I find that the stereotypical attitudes breaking down in regard to male/female relationships to be very exciting and long over due.

reply to post by smyleegrl


1. How would you define feminism?

A movement of obnoxiousness. I agree that the challenge of being civilized is to conquer that animal within....the constant stress of behaving unnaturally can have a severely negative impact.

Perhaps my viewpoint is tainted by my nature. While I am a typical male that is prone to some objectification, I typically view all humans the same and base that view completely on merits of behavior and action. To demand that I give subjective "respect" to any group just because they were born into that group is obnoxious.

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

I think we have to understand the differentiation between "equal" and "different". On the whole, yes....there is equality. Obviously there are pockets where this is not true. But we see women have permeated just about any sector that they desire, despite the burdensome gift of childbirth as a factor.

I have done well for myself, despite many challenges (education, etc). I am the first to say that were it not for my wife, I would be nothing but a running litany of excuses. I think that when you examine the dynamics of the male/female relationship, it is obvious that there is a wonderful potential for synergy.

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

Absolutely. Both are expected to live up to their individual stereotypes. For example, the working mom cannot skip a beat in either arena.

How often does the dad get custody of the kids? How about abortions....does the father have any input?

And speaking from a strictly cultural role....who is expected to provide? How about nurture?

My wife and I asked ourselves these questions quite awhile back. Thus, it is our common roles that I cook and clean the kitchen each night. I read stories to the kids on most nights (mom doing it was kind of like a treat). We made sure that we weren't comfortable in roles that were only gender based. We did it instead based on our personal strengths.

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

Let each individual observe their own strengths and weaknesses. Find a mate that matches their own abilities. In my home, it works best when the wife and I do things equally. We discuss quite a bit. We yield to each others areas of expertise without ego. It just works, and it works seamlessly. Even when we team up to do kitchen duty.

Always personal freedom. Always.

In our society all people are equal, some more, some less.

reply to post by smyleegrl

1. How would you define feminism?

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

1. Womenz refusing to make sammiches.
2. No, women have dummied us into a bottom position and hold us by the balls, reaping "equality" perks and dumping inequality handicaps.
3. Yes. I do not have a sammich in my hand.
4. I would think it ought be a lot better if the whole lot of you shut your pie holes and just acted your roles. Whether that be a butch woman, or a nancy man, we don't need any of you bitching about "inequality".

1. How would you define feminism?

Feminism is the attempt to achieve equality in respect and value as a human being. When you have that, equal rights naturally fall in to place because it would never be considered that women wouldn't have the same rights as men.
Any form of feminism that tries to put themselves above men or bring me down, is no longer feminism but something dangerous and harmful, not only to men but women as well.

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

No. We are closing the gap in some area but widening it in others.


3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

Absolutely! We are still stuck in the prescribed gender role mindset. Both men and women have it easier in some areas and more difficult in others due to their sex. I see many areas were women are still seen as less capable as men, but if you take a look at college scholarships you will see women have an advantage as to what is available.
I see many different areas where men and women are awarded different levels of respect for performing the same job or living a certain lifestyle.


4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

I would like to see society base everything solely on the individual and not on sex, race, income level, sexual orientation or anything else that doesn't change who a person.

reply to post by Bisman


You complain about women not being able to do skills that are commonly associated with females, but I say this goes both way. I see a lot of men unable to do things that used to be considered skills associated with men.

As far as computers go I would highly disagree. More men may be going into computers for careers but that as women, no matter what our knowledge level is, we get treated as if we are clueless. Any time I go into a computer store to purchase parts the employees always talk to me as if I couldn't possibly know what I am doing even though I built 4 out of the 5 currently working computers in this house.
I know plenty of other female gamers like my self who have built their own computers.

1. How would you define feminism?

Not being up on the current state of feminism, I tend to hear the term in reference to the movement as it was in the seventies; when I was a child and my mother was an acitivist. It brings to mind bra burning protests, abortion clinics that touted their late pregnancy abortions and uterus-vacuum process that could allow a woman to avoid having periods for just a ten minute process each month..... group masturbation classes and moms vibrator always on the coffee table..... the mantra my mother repeated constantly to me "Never ever be a housewife- it is slavery." ; "always be independant" also, which always seemed more geared towards preserving the mothers freedom from maternal responsibilities than any sort of benefit to us, her children.

It represents the women who strove to prove themselves as capable of being just like men, and successful in the ways men desire to be, and in doing so, de-valuing the skills, capabilities, and successful fulfillment that a person can have in maternal, nurturing feminine roles.

I have a negative reaction to the term, and feel that the feminist movement of that time hurt women and bashed my own appreciation of being woman.

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

I think there is some variation within western society, according to different nationalities and their particular cultures. But in a general way, I feel that yes. In more subtle ways, there is sexism that goes on and is not recognized as such. But that goes for both sexes, and is probably impossible to do away with entirely.

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

I find this difficult to answer, because though i see american culture in particular strives to find a standard which isn't "double", I do not agree that that is desireable. I think that seeks to deny inherent differences in the sexes.
For example, in trying to limit physical aggression , (that women tend to feel repulsed by, and are more vulnerable to physically) we repress the instinctive draw (and benefit) for males towards that sort of expression amongst themselves. A double standard seems appropriate in such cases.

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

I kind of answered in the above paragraph- I like to have a bit of gender roles, in order to protect and acknowledge differences in the sexes, but ideally that would be balanced with a cultural acknowledgement of us each having a feminine and masculine side to us, that we can choose to express and manifest at will (so that a man can choose to play a feminine role, and vice versa, if they desire).

But in the other hand, what I like about this world is the diversity- that there are all kinds of cultures and societies to choose from, that an individual can go to, live in, and experience. So I have no wish that ALL human societies were as I personally prefer.

Originally posted by smyleegrl


1. How would you define feminism?

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

1) I define Feminism as a female supremacist hate movement; and view individual feminists to be bigoted trash(I don't pity human shield[naive feminists that "aren't like that"]).

www.youtube.com...
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This is real feminist's:

www.youtube.com...
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Those protestors where in response to a conference on boy's and young men.

2) No, we are not even close to gender equality. At best men are second class citizens at worst males are treated as sub-life forms. As prior to the last 3 years, on average, women would go to jail longer for killing a dog then a male(boy's, young man, man or old man). Added to the fact that for the last half decade feminists have been pushing for higher wages for women on the basis of gender(back in 06-07 feminists began pushing the thought that women should make more because they are women, and then feminists began the huge propaganda campaign about women being "shortchanged", as a psycho emotional mechanism so they can justify women making more because of their gender in the same way discrimination against males in education is justified as "payback" for the mythical patriarchy).

This has caused a huge imbalance in Gen Y earnings with women on average making $1.25 more per hour then Gen Y men; and in part time(single male) the discrepancy is even more discriminatory. Coupled with both the institutional bigotry that exists in favor of women, and the social bigotry women enable throughout the educational system and society as a whole, makes it difficult for males not born to affluent families to have access to a decent education.

The cultural bigotry most women enable, is that they look the other way when other women engage in wanton bigotry. Case in point: first semester of this college I was attending in a class, two young women in the back of the class started chanting (I HATE MEN!!!, I HATE MEN!!). There was only two men out of a class of 15 or so people including myself. All the women(older and younger), went silent and acted like nothing was going on and afterwards acted chummy chummy with the bigots. No iota of reprimand or anything. And yet when a male student showed slight revulsion at homosexuality a few were quick to be hyper critical of such passive behavior.

It shows that women hold other women beyond reproach, but hold that men can be criticized and held to task for any slight "offense". It is an incredibly supremacist attitude that I found many feminists personally encouraged. Our society encourages hyper-criticism to be directed at men by women while the opposite is totally taboo.

www.youtube.com...


3) Women have reproductive rights while men have reproductive responsibilities. Heck the entire healthcare industry(and insurance for that matter) is a double standard. When one man does something bad the entire male gender is at fault. When one woman does something bad the entire male gender is at fault( or in the rare case the individual is held to task). If one woman does something good, it is projected onto all women, and when a man does something good it is either projected as being an individual doing good or humanity as a whole doing good. One of the big double standards is that it is "OK" for a woman to kill a man for "emotional abuse", but a man cannot as much push a woman who is trying to assault, beat, or stab the man.

As a society women's violence, no matter how destructive is viewed as "funny" or acceptable, while male violence is demonized(even Dove in a recent commercial for their Dove men's products suggested that it is acceptable to physically abuse men).

If men's pants are dragging a bit they/we can be kicked off of a bus or in some areas ticketed. If a man is mugged, shot or killed he can be blamed for causing the misfortune that happened to him. If a woman is criticized for her clothing choice or if a woman is blamed for her own misfortune, it is pretty much career over for the person doing the criticizing(unless it is another woman).

4) Common sense and basic human decency would be nice, I think society should strive for a certain degree of efficiency. Gender roles, from my vantage point, is much like how I view the economy; it is a mostly fictional role-playing game/ritual to encourage the continuance of society, of people.

In the end though, it is just a role-playing game.