The narrow path

reply to post by jmdewey60


Who are these other gods? Would they look kind of like Jesus? Would they be on Earth or is there a "Jesus" for each planet? You have some very unique ideas. Are you sure you're a Christian?

reply to post by jmdewey60


If Jesus is worshiped as a king or god, that means he is part of an imperial cult. Your wiki link pretty much says that outright. So are you part of an imperial cult or not? I think that's what he meant with his question.

reply to post by jmdewey60

My opinion is that Jesus is a god, out of many such entities. "God" is generally undefined in the authentic New Testament (the part that is not forgeries), so I take the step of theorizing that God in the singular represents the 'order of the gods'.

I did a bit of reading in various wiki articles too. see apotheosis

It struck me that Roman Senate confirming that a deceased king or emperor was deified that his deification was not to a throne, but rather to a position of helper/protector of the state. Very similar to the current Roman(Vatican) practice of Canonization of saints.

Official (see the addition at end of Mark) Christianity, requires that Jesus sit on a throne. Why? A top god on a throne can't also be helping or comforting a poor severely depressed person in his home. Christianity has no place for Saint Jesus. I do. That's why I'm not a Christian.

An official Christian, seeing me do miracles would conclude that I was doing it through some Satanic means. But if, by some chance, it were through the power of Saint (Holy) Jesus, then isn't there some danger of blasphemy there? Either I am blaspheming or they are.

Is it possible that the Oneness Theologians, by saying Jesus is now the Holy Spirit, are closer to the truth than those who require Jesus be chained to some throne, and must send someone else as a comforter?

I find it rather interesting that when I showed appalling human weakness, that I didn't get any stars, not even from Afterinfinity who suggested that human weakness is strength.

If I were to have a creed, I think that it might just be: "There is no throne for Jesus to be chained to"

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

So we are all sons of god, not just Jesus?

Isn't that one of the main points of Christianity? That Jesus was the "only" begotten son? If we are all God's children, that means we are equal to Jesus.

Ontologicaly speaking we just may be equal to Jesus, same race, same substance, same spirit, etc.

But honor and worship (worthiness) is earned. That's individual to each character.

JMDewey somewhere mentioned Game of Thrones. I watched the first season and was fascinated enough so that I bought all the books. Many characters, many religions, many contenders for the Iron throne (sort of an imperial throne, since there are seven(?) kingdoms).

Spoiler Alert:
Which of the various religions (including the monotheistic one) seem good? They all pretty much suck, in my opinion. Which of the contenders for the throne seem fit? They are all severely flawed in one way or another. Which characters are the most easily sympathized with? The one who gets killed early in the story for being a man better than the position he occupied, and his daughter who ends up being an assassin.

All the characters are ontologicaly the same, but only a few deserve to be honored as heroic.

reply to post by pthena


I agree, but just because he earned respect doesn't mean he is any better than us. If we practice what he taught then we are equal to him, even if he was a better teacher than most.

I don't think he ever wanted to be worshiped nor did he ever require or even ask for it. It is those who killed him that required his worship and demanded it. And yes, Paul did demand it and I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of those who plotted to capture and kill Jesus.

reply to post by sacgamer25

I dont agree with pastors or churches the way they are run. I believe they are men who turned stones into bread.

I had to read that many times to understand it. I get it now

Thus they will never fully understand the gospel.
. . .
The pastor is paid to perform a job, thus he cannot be considered a servant. He has taken a seat alongside the Levites. He has not become a disciple of Christ.

But seriously. Individual pastors are individual people. And, individual congregations of Christians are individual congregations of Christians.

As a congregation member I paid pastors to be servants. This was not a bad thing. By being relieved of the duties of 9 to 5 world, he was enabled to visit the sick, perform weddings, funerals, and other necessary things that unpaid elders (such as myself) couldn't get time off of work to do. A servant does not become a non servant, by being paid.

As for not fully understanding the gospel, who does? The pastor seemed as able to grasp the gospel as any of the elders. Being a pastor did not disqualify him at all.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I agree, but just because he earned respect doesn't mean he is any better than us. If we practice what he taught then we are equal to him, even if he was a better teacher than most.

I don't think he ever wanted to be worshiped nor did he ever require or even ask for it.

When we think that we know the biography of Jesus, we delude ourselves. You like theories, how about this theory?

Theory in quotes to indicate that this is a theory, not a creed:

Jesus was living in Rome. Jesus knew Saul of Tarsus in Rome. They were co-conspiritors to usher in the Judaic Messianic reign, which would overthrow Rome and establish the New World Order, of Jewish Messiah ruling from Jerusalem.

Due to the Messianic agitation, Jesus was expelled from Rome along with many other Jews in about 26 AD. He made his way to Galilee (possibly his birthplace) got a bunch of followers to support him as Messiah, made his way to Jerusalem, and started to change his mind.

He was torn between doing the Messiah thing, and actually helping people. When the crisis came, he chose helping people. On the night that he was betrayed, he took bread ...

His followers killed him, because he failed to live up to "the plan"

Saul of Tarsus finally made it to Jerusalem, too late, Jesus was dead and his body disposed of. He made inquiries at the temple, where the plot had some allies. Upon learning that his own disciples had killed him, Saul set out to get his revenge upon any and all who had been his followers.

Jesus himself stopped Saul from his path of revenge. Jesus himself, told Saul about his decision to forgive, and the words he spoke on that night.

******* Thus ends the theory *********

If I were Paul, given such a scenario, I would not only worship Jesus, but try to teach others to also.

But I'm not Paul. I'm not a Jew(Benjaminite). I'm not a monotheist. I don't have all the Judaic brainwashing that Paul had. I don't have to spend the rest of my life getting over that brainwashing. I can admire Jesus without fitting him into any sinless mold like Christians are forced to adopt.

reply to post by pthena


Interesting theory, is that your own?
One problem with this is that Paul never claims to have met Jesus before his supposed vision. Why would he fail to mention that if he really had? Also, why did he completely change Jesus' message in his letters? Why would Jesus teach works not faith while alive then tell Paul to teach faith not works after he died?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

If Jesus is worshiped as a king or god, that means he is part of an imperial cult. Your wiki link pretty much says that outright. So are you part of an imperial cult or not? I think that's what he meant with his question.

It's difficult to understand from that article unless you know about it already from other sources.
The point I was making by linking to that article is that this thing which amounts to being "Son of God" was conferred automatically to all the Roman Emperors since Augustus.
The question I was trying to answer was if Jesus on a throne is somehow 'too much'.
I wasn't saying that Jesus was a Roman Emperor. That was what was offered by Satan or whoever in the temptation.

If you recall the story in the Gospels, Jesus turned it down.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Who are these other gods? Would they look kind of like Jesus? Would they be on Earth or is there a "Jesus" for each planet? You have some very unique ideas. Are you sure you're a Christian?

Angels are gods delivering messages.
There are other types, that do other things besides deliver messages.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Interesting theory, is that your own?

I suspect that one line was given to me gratis:
"Saul of Tarsus finally made it to Jerusalem, too late, Jesus was dead ..."

Paul never claims to have met Jesus before his supposed vision.

And Peter doesn't mention that he killed Jesus. There are layers and layers of myth in the story. The killers put the blame on the temple and the Romans. Note that the temple was in favor of keeping peace with Rome. "Holy" Messianic Zionist Jews therefore despised the temple priests.

why did he completely change Jesus' message in his letters? Why would Jesus teach works not faith while alive then tell Paul to teach faith not works after he died?

I think that jmdewey somewhere explains that "faith" in Paul is not merely an intellectual assent to a creed, but rather a lifetime commitment. There is really no conflict between faith and works.

Jesus told his disciples to go to James, in Gospel of Thomas. James, brother of Jesus, was not a follower of Jesus when Jesus was on his Messianic campaign. James only became a believer in Jesus after he was somehow confronted by the somehow alive Jesus.

James then made sure that he took over the devastated people whose hopes had died. Paul and James complemented one another. Both of them had a real problem with Peter, who made up stories of physical body Resurrection and such other nonsense to cover his own guilt.

The message of Jesus of forgiveness constrained Paul and James both from killing Peter. Peter did disappear somehow. Maybe James one day was throwing a rant about why it was so painful to see Peter, and some less than forgiving person overheard. Such things have been known to happen.

The letter called 1Peter is not by Peter but probably has some James influence. If you read 1Peter, you also see that there is much of Paul's teaching on not fighting Rome. Between Paul and James there was enough to prevent any Messianic rebellion from reaching the level of bringing a full on Roman suppression. Thus Jerusalem was saved until James was killed and Paul disappeared.

Very almost cynical theory I've got here, but hey! That's how things happen in the real World.

reply to post by pthena

If I were to have a creed, I think that it might just be: "There is no throne for Jesus to be chained to"

Thrones are symbolic and can represent serving a particular functional capacity.
Thrones, plural, are what are visualized as awaiting the faithful in heaven, by Revelation.

I don't know about "Your Own Personal Jesus".

I see Jesus' role mainly as being 'the accepted by God', who represents us if we act like him, or as best that we can.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Paul did demand it and I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of those who plotted to capture and kill Jesus.

What are you talking about? How does Paul demand worship of Jesus.
Philippians 2 says all will bend the knee, but it is God demanding it, and then in a figurative way relating to a (hypothetical?) "final judgment".
Paul says to carefully consider Christ as to how you act toward others.
Paul of Tarsus, think about what that means.
Paul did not live in or know anyone who lived in judea or Galilee.
You need to stop reading Acts as if it is history, it's not.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Isn't Paul the one who said that everyone would bend their knee? Yeah, so he pretty much demanded it.

reply to post by pthena

Very almost cynical theory I've got here, but hey! That's how things happen in the real World.

It reminds me of The Last Temptation of Christ, the movie, I never read the book.
The book, The Razor's Edge, has some similar lines to it.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Just so you know, in my previous post I'm not denying physical resurrection in general, I'm denying that Jesus physically resurrected. I'm not denying that there may possibly be a general resurrection some day, but I don't know anything about it, and refrain from talking about it.

I don't know about "Your Own Personal Jesus".

I don't know if I used that exact phrase or not, but yeah, the Jesus that makes sense to me. There's no claim of ownership, at least not some exclusive ownership. The day may come, when everyone's personal version of Jesus gets compared to the original. Some versions get the nod for being "not bad", other versions get tossed in the fire with such words as "I don't know you".

Thrones are symbolic and can represent serving a particular functional capacity.

Function maybe, I don't care for the imagery of it.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Isn't Paul the one who said that everyone would bend their knee? Yeah, so he pretty much demanded it.

That's what I was just talking about.
I would recommend reading a book, A Hymn of Christ: Philippians 2:5-11 in Recent Interpretation & in the Setting of Early Christian Worship, by Ralph Martin.
I have the Google Play version which was cheaper than I could find a used hard copy book.
This was a hymn, like the Psalms in the Old Testament, where they explain things in a hyperbolic way but not to be taken literally.
We don't go around 'bending the knee' to Jesus, though I suppose they do that in Catholic churches, with obligatory kneeling.

reply to post by pthena

I don't know if I used that exact phrase or not . . .

You didn't.
That's a song and it makes me think of a late night religious infomercial where a preacher is saying if you donate, you can have your own personal Jesus, and they mail you a little statue.

there may possibly be a general resurrection some day, but I don't know anything about it, and refrain from talking about it.

I think we are supposed to worry about how we live today, and all the scary future stuff is for bad people to worry about.
Paul says knowing is not as important as being known, by God.
I think people are meant to have bodies and are happy when they have them.
I was watching a documentary on H P Lovecraft this morning on Crackle. Kind of weird, but he wrote about a character who was into 'reanimating' corpses.

reply to post by jmdewey60

they mail you a little statue.

Cool Hand Luke?
"I don't care if it rains or freezes,
'long as I've got my plastic Jesus,
riding on the dash board
of my car."

I used to hang out with some seminarians who would break out singing that in trio.

reply to post by pthena


So why did Paul persecute Jesus' followers if he believed in him? He admits that he persecuted them in his epistles. He admitted to a conversion in Damascus, he held the coats of those who stoned Stephen.

While I think your theory is interesting, I personally don't see how it lines up with the rest of the story. It doesn't make sense when you consider his persecution of Christians. Plus, he taught about stuff that Jesus never even hinted at during his ministry.

You'd think that if Paul's message was so important and integral to Jesus' gospel, that Jesus would have said them while he was alive. I don't see any reason why he would wait after his death to let someone else tell that part for him.

I personally don't think Paul complimented Jesus at all, mainly for the reasons above. To each his own I guess.