A.T.S and the Military what is the deal?

reply to post by yourmaker

The "trend" referred to by the OP is hardly limited to the military. People often base their post on the title alone, even I've done it.

But I'd have to agree.

I do hold soldiers personally accountable. They have a right and a duty to disobey orders which are illegal or immoral.

Lets stop denying the facts. The US has a foreign policy based on the pursuit and control of natural resources and strategically important geography.

The Nuremberg Trials set the precedence that the "I'm just following orders" defense/excuse is not a valid justification.

Of-course the Bush administration stated that the US is no longer bound by the Geneva Convention, rules which were enacted to prevent Nazi type war crimes.

First, to the members of the military I say Thank you. It is because you are willing to fight for my freedom that I am able to log onto ATS and give my opinion.

I am trying to think of a way to say things without upsetting anyone. OK, honestly I think this is part of the problem. I saw another poster mention (sorry I don't remeber who) that we are so worried about being politically correct that its insane. The first thing that people need to realize is that there are too many people in this world to make everyone happy. And this goes beyond military, this is everyday life. No more Merry Christmas, because I might hurt your feelings, no more Halloween because it might offend, try-outs for sports teams? nope someone might get their feelings hurt. I think that as children they are coddled too much and have no idea how the real world operates. OK, sorry, wondering a bit.....I am awful for calling people "Hug A Thugs" because they honestly think that everyone can be "saved". There are BAD people out there, period. A hippie, treehugging, *whatever other names were used* needs to understand that they have the right to be who they are because of the military. I commend anyone willing to join. I knew I was not cut out for that life, so I didn't join. But I also know that they have given me the life I have (don't think so? Ask North Korea how they like deciding what they want to do when they grow up). You don't have to agree, but at least respect. We no longer have that.

Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. Ronald Reagan

To the OP...

I don't want to get in to your choices...they are yours...but...

I am a disabled combat veteran, I don't blindly fallow orders, nor do I support every thing my government does

Perhaps you think that way...but since you got hurt...most probably in one of the newer wars (Iraq, Afganistan...or somewhere middle east...wherever you guys go)...you did so by blindly following orders...going in to a war you did not need to be in.

You must understand...that choosing a career of a soldier (whatever your motives were...) actually means you relinquish your free will and your thinking...and let others do that for you. The military depends on such an obedience. It depends on hierarchy. It depends on the fact that you...a lowly soldier...an expendable...take up arms and fight for the fat cats...they will tell you where and how. If you enlist...they own your ass...and that includes following orders blindly.

And how do you not support what your government does? By thinking about it? or by going to war ?

Anyway...this is not a bashing military post...I just want you to think about it...

reply to post by Martin75

First, to the members of the military I say Thank you. It is because you are willing to fight for my freedom that I am able to log onto ATS and give my opinion.

I'm still not sure if this was some sort of concealed sarcasm.

Originally posted by ausername
Peace activists, liberals, hippies, Occupiers, progressives, or whatever they call it now..

They are programmed to always have contempt for the military, soldiers, law enforcement and of course people who have been successful in life.

It's so well implanted in the minds of the afflicted that their responses and reactions are incredibly predictable, it is a herd mentality, a leftover from cold war era psychological operations.

former ranger here... and this is absolutely correct.

Actually I could say more but it would be WAY against the T&Cs, above and beyond any political correctness or anything rated below M.

Of course even I am sometimes against some behaviors. Hell I questioned direct orders I'm not a machine, I even directly disobeyed them, some with greater consequences then others and thats why I was so against that bs that happened in Boston. But there will always be bad apples and "blind followers" - those who dont question and simply follow orders.

That said still I feel that especially the new generations are taught to have no respect for authority - its not "taught to question it" or to "defy it", they are taught to have no respect at all - its like any figure of authority either its the army, the police, their boss, its simply the enemy - "the man", and its almost a KOS. Its like we're the cause for everything bad on this planet for every freaking butterfly loving idiot.

At least teach them respect for what these men and women are willing to do for you to be able to be free enough to hate them.

Theres a quote I once heard on a movie and got stuck in my head for obvious reasons...

"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.



our motto: That the many for we being few we shall not fear

The rest I think we can share... "Rangers lead the way!"

reply to post by Reaper2137


Why is being anti military not denying ignorance. Why should you show a member that is military or x military any more respect than anyone else..

ATS is an international forum. A military that might be loved in one country could be hated in another.. War is organised murder.. How many died in Afghanistan and Iraq and for what. I have nothing personal against military people but I do not hold them in any esteem either...

support the troops no matter who they murdering today ... Baaaaaa!

reply to post by Martin75

First, to the members of the military I say Thank you. It is because you are willing to fight for my freedom that I am able to log onto ATS and give my opinion

What was the last war that US military members died fighting for the freedom of the civilians.. The wars I am thinking of.. The soldiers died to make rich people richer..

reply to post by purplemer


I wonder if they are blind enough to think they are doing good or if that's their coping mechanism to justify their actions.

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

That said still I feel that especially the new generations are taught to have no respect for authority - its not "taught to question it" or to "defy it", they are taught to have no respect at all - its like any figure of authority either its the army, the police, their boss, its simply the enemy - "the man", and its almost a KOS. Its like we're the cause for everything bad on this planet for every freaking butterfly loving idiot.

I have to agree with you there...people really don't have respect for the authority.

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives.

That's a quote from "Few good men" with Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise. If I remember correctly...the quote you're referring to got Nicholson relieved from his duty...(honorably)...it got most of the squad members to lie and conceal the murder of their team member.

So you wanna go by that quote to explain to us how it's an honorable duty? Maybe not the best choice.

reply to post by Reaper2137


I might be considered as anti-military in many ways.

I respect people, who have served in the military, although I do not have much trust in the military itself.

Historically there have so many wrongdoings, so many deaths, because of wrongly used military. Often patriotism is used as a button to be pushed somebody into believing into the rightfulness of the war. Soldiers fight believing they are doing it for their country, while actually they are just serving their leaders, risking their lives for somebody, who just wants resources and power. There is not much choice for most peopleserved in the military, when it comes to war - it is decided in the top (at least round here).

I consider myself a pacifist. In some cases war might be necessary for defense, although most wars that have ever been have been because of the choices of the people in the top. Strong military can be very dangerous, if the people in the top are corrupt, which often happens, unfortunately.

I respect soldiers - the discipline, skillset, physical condition. Although you must agree that in certain situations it is not possible to disobey, even though the thing might seem wrong for you. There is a common saying about soldiers, which comes directly from the obligatory military service here: "Soldier does not think, soldier does what he is told to".

I do not say all soldiers blindly follow orders, although often there is no time to question the authorities, especially in a situation of a war and after all that is how the military is supposed to work - highly organized military can no questionwhat they have to do and that is what most soldiers are taught.

I remember the story of S. Brian Willson, an anti-war activist,who had both legs severed below the knees when a Navy armaments train failed to stop even though he and two others were lying across the tracks. The civilian crewmen on the train would not disobey orders from their superiors to keep going. Willson, a veteran of 4 years in Vietnam was philosophical about their failure to disobey authority: "They were just doing what I did in 'Nam. They were following orders that are part of an insane policy. They're the fall guys." Fall guys, maybe: the crewmen went on to sue Willson for causing them mental anguish and physical stress.

If I might ever come harsh in any of my posts, I apologise. It was not meant personally against any soldiers.

Ex squaddie here. Whatever I think now at the time I felt I was doing my duty, giving back if you like.

My involvement with counter-insurgency left many scars and a bitter taste. As others have pointed out it's the political direction we are pointed in that is the root of the problem. However the idea you can make do without some form of armed services is naive.

Once again one does see the apparently irreconcilable views of some glorifying and some disparaging, I've just commented on a political thread with a similar set of thoughts. If you think the military is out of order then get a grip of the politicians. It is very difficult to spot an illegal order when mayhem seems to be the political will of the day, from all sides.

Originally posted by mykingdomforthetruth
support the troops no matter who they murdering today ... Baaaaaa!

I know, it boggles the mind doesn't it

Someone else already pointed out that the "I was just following orders" excuse does not give a killer immunity for their crimes (well it shouldn't anyways). If a gang member is told to kill a rival gang member by their supperior it is considered a crime, but if you illegally invade a country based on lies and murder a whole village based on bad intel, it's considered collateral damage.

There was a great thread about the "Military Cult" which is present on ATS and society in general but I cannot find it. I will make sure to add it to this thread if I come across it as I believe it corrects a lot of the misconceptions that have been voiced in this thread so far.

ETA:

I cannot find the thread

Either the thread got trashed or the search engine hates me...mabye both?

I think the military is going to come under a lot more criticism now that legal instruments permit the use of the military to bring the force of law down on "terrorists". The situation in Boston is an example. I don't know if the government used the military to hunt down "Billy the Kid" but they sure did to arrest "Dzhokhar the Kid".

National Guard troops have been exempted from the Posse Comitatus Act since 1981. The Wikipedia article on the Act is worth reading and there are links to articles on other relevant pieces of legislation.

en.wikipedia.org...

The military is an instrument of power. The military's reputation will suffer "collateral damage" in cases where the government is using its instrument of power in questionable ways or for questionable ends.

I just have to ask, what kind of world do some of you live in?

In the real world, the military in America is wholly controlled by the civillian government.

The military has one purpose, and as such, that is what they train for and prepare soldiers to do.

Killing is apart of this world, always was, always will be.

Militaries exist, because if they didn't, others would use theirs to take what they want.

If you are so anti military you can't see the need of killing others, under any situation, your lying to yourselves, and living in a delusion.

The world is much like a giant organism, where there are those things like viruses, and bacteria, that in order to survive and reproduce, will even kill their host in their pursuit of reources and territories for their offspring.

The hosts only recourse is to also field and to weild another killer system to repel if possible, and destroy if it gets a foot hold.

Only the strong survive, it is a real part of this world we inhabit.

There are sheep and wolves, it is a fact, wolves eat sheep, sheep are defenseless against them, so a sheep dog is necessary to defend them.

Who do you complain about? The sheep for being to weak to defend themselves? The sheep dog for being capable of and fulfilling a necessary violent role? The wolf for being hungry enough to kill a sheep in the first place? The herdman for having the sheep in the first place, which causes the entire situation? Or maybe god for not making all life herbavores, or even god for causing hunger in the first place?

I can't tell you where the blame originated, I can only tell you the facts of the way things are, soldiers are necessary, as most are simply sheep, and can't or won't defend their person or their offspring, either out of idiocy, or fear, I couldn't tell you why they won't do it themselves, I am one of those that has no problems doing it myself.

So this idiotic view of death and killing not being essential is quite off to me, it pervades all aspects of the life of every single living thing on this planet, denying it as reality is just stupid to me, it is like denying the sun exists, or water is wet, or the sky is up from the ground.

Like it or not, this is reality, this is the way the world is, learn to deal with it, denying its existance won't stop it from existing, it only proves how idiotic some people can be, by the very act of denying their is such as thing as fire, while it is burning their backs.

reply to post by inverslyproportional


Reasonable people in this thread aren't opposing the existence or purpose of the military. We are opposing the wholesale slaughter being carried out in the name of liberty.

reply to post by Reaper2137


Hey Reaper great post SnF~ You are absolutely correct on your observations. Look at my join date. I have observed this in a very short period of time, no years necessary just being aware and reading of posts led me to the same conclusion as your OP. I have however, noticed a major influx of new members joining as of lately. Now I'm not sure of the Age bracket's these new members are bringing, however from some of the posts I have read I would assume (I hate that word.... The first 3 letters get you everytime) that they are of a younger generation than even me. Being 30yrs old I felt my generation was the last one before the "Entitlement" generation came into play. Kids who feel there facathta doesn't stink and don't take the time to see a different perspective. As frustrating as this is, it's up to us as ATSer's to do exactly what you stated~

We are here to learn, teach, debate and grow as humans. Its up to us to lead the way, and show others, on lesser boards why we are the best community on the internet.

Even when you read those posts and want to metaphysically punch the threader through the internet, as you learned and I have myself. When a thread get's you emotionally it's sometimes better to sit back and wait and observe. I have had to learn how to do this on ATS. Prior to what I would call "Good Behavior" on my part. I was fast to lash back and break all sorts of T&C. It's all a learning process. New members aren't as saavy as members who have been here for years. We have a learning curve. A "Huge" learning curve. I'm not defending them. I'm just putting out some of my observations at the same time.

I totally agree with your Post, I feel it even goes deeper than what you typed in your OP. If any of this was already stated, my apologies~ I just wanted to respond to you Reaper and not the other threaders at this time.

Great post. Hope your having a great day~

sulaw