New report questions Israel's claim of "divine right"

reply to post by pthena

Dear pthena,

Hooray!! I always love it when agreement is reached. We, at least on this subject, are of one mind. Full agreement! (I'm dancing in my chair, a very disturbing thing to witness)

Now the only thing left, to finish the entire discussion and shut down the thread, is to figure out what significance this opinion has in the world. I got the impression, and that's all it was, that the OP thought it was very important. I don't think it has much significance, if any, in affecting the situation in the Middle-East.

But that's a much smaller issue for me and doesn't slow down by chair dance at all.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by Iscool

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Anyone who does not pick and choose Torah verses only supportive of Divine Right, knows that the Abrahamic covenant's title to the land was lost by Divine Decision, based on the massive personal and national sins of both Israel and Judah. God considered Israel and Judah His wives, but divorced them and sent them packing, as is usually done in divorces. This divorcement has not yet been rescinded, and is still in force. Therefore, Palestine belongs to the Palestinians.

edit on 7-5-2013 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah

Sorry...The land belongs to God...Israel being on the property is fulfillment of phrophecy...No one will move them out of there from here on out...

Yes, the land belongs to God, and you have not refuted what I said. God kicked Judah and Benjamin out of their allotted lands on account of their sins, by the agency of the Babylonians. The tribes of Judah and Benjamin have NOT returned, as the "Israeli Jews" are Khazars, and the prophecy of return is only falsely fulfilled. They will be moved out or be destroyed, being the Jews that say they are Jews, but are not.

I just watched this video last night, it is rather long but I thought it was excellent, it explains a lot in case you do not really believe things as told or that have very hard to establish facts and true history.

it will take awhile to get to the portion that touches on zionism and things that have been set up to be fake.

www.youtube.com...

It is hard to imagine that one people were given land and then told it is theirs and all others are not equal to you, you are the chosen, which really would mean that the creator has levels of perfection and not total perfection, if there was total perfection there would be no sin and there would be no reason to appoint any one group of your creations as having a divine right... don't get me wrong but there are many questions I have always had about this situation of chosen people, vs. the non chosen.

reply to post by charles1952

Now the only thing left, to finish the entire discussion and shut down the thread, is to figure out what significance this opinion has in the world.

I seriously doubt that 100% agreement between us would resolve all of the side issues that others are discussing

This has significance to Palestinian Christians, especially those considering leaving their homes and going into exile. One of the horrible conditions of being under military occupation is living under unjust laws, such as if you leave, the Israeli government will never let you return, especially if you happen to live in East Jerusalem.

Significance for the World? Not so much.

Personally, I thought that a major part of Christian ethic was to help those who really need it, rather than bolstering the power of those who already sit in a position of power, especially when that power is abused. Hence , the meaning of the saying about balance in my signature.

If I approach a scale with my 2 cents and find 1 billion dollars on one side and 50 cents on the other I dont fool myself into thinking that I should put 1 cent on each side in order to gain balance no I put both of my cents on the lighter side.

reply to post by pthena

Dear pthena,

Thank you not at all for stopping my chair dance.

You're right, the side issues shouldn't be ignored, but I was hoping to tie this thread into a neat little bundle and put it into the out box.

I've seen reports recently that exile is becoming increasingly significant. The pace of driving Christians out of Egypt, Jordan and other countries in the area has increased. Churches, homes, small towns are being destroyed and Christians being killed. Would this qualify as "Ethnic Cleansing?"

It appears that the world is saying "Oh well." to this situation. I suspect they have issues to resolve which they think are bigger.

With respect,
Charles1952

All land is holy and all people were chosen.

I tend to look at this outside of the religious view. Let's say i'm sitting in the woods somewhere,an angel comes down to me and gives me a writ to the entirety of Wyoming (why the hell I would want Wyoming is beyond my scope of thought right now). God says "Hey, you can have it"!. Well, there are already people living there who have bought land. Is it moral for me to go kick them off their land? I'd say no. I think this should answer the question. I don't believe Israel should be disbanded/destroyed by any means, but I think it's time to stop using unproven religious arguments to create policy.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

The British worked against the Jewish settlers as hard as they could . The British set the Jews up to be crushed . By the way the Jews bought an awful lot of land up from the Arabs . Then on the day of celebration of their independence as a Nation the Arabs attacked them . The Israelites beat the hapless Arabs back and took a buffer zone to boot .

I am pretty sure there was a 'Marshall Plan' that supported the resettlement of the Jews...
...but this was not extended to the Palestinians and in hindsight should have been.

No one on this planet has "divine right". If the Jews have such right like some claim mostly the Zionist then wouldn't the statement Jews are above everyone appear in all the holy books? And as far as the land belonging to someone because God gave to them is a laugh because when did God become a real estate agent and where's the deed?

reply to post by buster2010


Have you never questioned what is so important about that desolate forbidding chunk of land . The Jews are well able to live anywhere they want and for the most part do. Look at Israel on Google earth closely and you will see it rivals the Bad Lands of Texas . But you will find that the Temple Mount exists there and so will Israel . The later days prophecy will play out there . Even the Koran says the Jews will inhabit the land forever by decree from ALLAH .
The problems in the Middle East will not go away . The Bible is specific where Israel will be when Christ comes back . And it also tells how this next war will end up and how much Israel will lose .
We are about to enter the Great Tribulation from what I see . We are about to have a world economic collapse that will throw us into a struggle just to survive. The NWO will offer a new solution to start the world economic conveyors shipping and supplying food and other necessary items . This way of life is about over .

Originally posted by SimonPeter
Look at Israel on Google earth closely and you will see it rivals the Bad Lands of Texas.

Actually areas of Israel are now beautiful, much nicer then even what we have here in the US. Of course the US is giving them a bunch of money that we cannot even afford to spend on our own crumbling infrastructure in order to build up theirs.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
But you will find that the Temple Mount exists there and so will Israel . The later days prophecy will play out there .

Again, only if you follow Jesuit Futurism. That is Roman Catholic Dogma that even the Roman Catholics who created it reject. Roman Catholics today follow Preterism, which is a much closer interpretation to Historicism.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
We are about to enter the Great Tribulation from what I see .

We have been in the Great Tribulation since 70AD with the beginning of the “Age of the Church”. Revelation encompasses all the “Age of the Church” starting with the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem and continuing until the return of Christ.

Even if they did have diving rights to the land, the way they stole and are still stealing the land to the Palestinians sure isn't holy or divine.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by charles1952

Now the only thing left, to finish the entire discussion and shut down the thread, is to figure out what significance this opinion has in the world.

I seriously doubt that 100% agreement between us would resolve all of the side issues that others are discussing

This has significance to Palestinian Christians, especially those considering leaving their homes and going into exile. One of the horrible conditions of being under military occupation is living under unjust laws, such as if you leave, the Israeli government will never let you return, especially if you happen to live in East Jerusalem.

Significance for the World? Not so much.

Personally, I thought that a major part of Christian ethic was to help those who really need it, rather than bolstering the power of those who already sit in a position of power, especially when that power is abused. Hence , the meaning of the saying about balance in my signature.

If I approach a scale with my 2 cents and find 1 billion dollars on one side and 50 cents on the other I dont fool myself into thinking that I should put 1 cent on each side in order to gain balance no I put both of my cents on the lighter side.

edit on 8-5-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)

Rules for Radicals(Psychopaths) on display here at it's finest. Personally, between me and you, one should speak about their own ethics instead of trying to emotionally abuse and manipulate others.

Originally posted by theMediator
Even if they did have diving rights to the land, the way they stole and are still stealing the land to the Palestinians sure isn't holy or divine.

Not really, most Palestinians or at-least a good chunk, are immigrants who immigrated to Israel because of the economic boom created by the first few waves of Jewish settlers.

I hate to quote wiki:
en.wikipedia.org...

But go to that link and scroll to Jewish and Arab(as well as Christian) population demographics.

From 1914 onward the Jewish population increases rapidly due to immigration to the region, and the muslim population increases even more radically, also due to immigration.

If arabs didn't immigrate to Israel because of the economic boom created by Jewish settlers(who at first tried to co-exist), Jewish Settlers would of outnumbered native arabs within 50 years. The arabs in the West bank and Gaza strip are by a large majority just, vandals. Predatory immigrants who wanted the Jewish settlers money and then wanted to kill them, as a good chunk if not all, of the native arabs are Israeli arab's.

reply to post by SimonPeter

Have you never questioned what is so important about that desolate forbidding chunk of land .

No if you look back through the history of Palestine it is famous for one thing. All the prophets of God has come from there.

Originally posted by korathin

Originally posted by theMediator
Even if they did have diving rights to the land, the way they stole and are still stealing the land to the Palestinians sure isn't holy or divine.

Not really, most Palestinians or at-least a good chunk, are immigrants who immigrated to Israel because of the economic boom created by the first few waves of Jewish settlers.

I hate to quote wiki:
en.wikipedia.org...

But go to that link and scroll to Jewish and Arab(as well as Christian) population demographics.

From 1914 onward the Jewish population increases rapidly due to immigration to the region, and the muslim population increases even more radically, also due to immigration.

If arabs didn't immigrate to Israel because of the economic boom created by Jewish settlers(who at first tried to co-exist), Jewish Settlers would of outnumbered native arabs within 50 years. The arabs in the West bank and Gaza strip are by a large majority just, vandals. Predatory immigrants who wanted the Jewish settlers money and then wanted to kill them, as a good chunk if not all, of the native arabs are Israeli arab's.

edit on 9-5-2013 by korathin because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-5-2013 by korathin because: (no reason given)

All the sources that was used in this wiki page are of Jewish origin so I doubt it is accurate.

reply to post by korathin

Rules for Radicals(Psychopaths) on display here at it's finest. Personally, between me and you, one should speak about their own ethics instead of trying to emotionally abuse and manipulate others.

At the risk of straying off topic, I must ask: are you also reading the book The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success? I'm not reading it myself but a relative of mine is and he fills me in on some of the details.

I'm not quite sad to report that I fail to meet the criteria. I'm not part of any group that stands to gain anything but a little recognition of basic human rights, and a little self-respect.

On topic though, this thread is about a Christian Church making a statement in support of a Christian statement. I am well aware of concepts of Christian ethics (of the sort not tainted by a sociopathic craving to bring about end of the World scenarios). My ethics are in complete harmony with those concepts of Christian ethics I have mentioned.

On second thought, after reading a full description of the book, maybe I do fit in that continuum somewhere. I guess I'll have to read it and see.

Allow me to ask you an empathy testing question.

Who do you feel fits into American society more easily: An American born Jew who decides not to make aliyah, or a Palestinian born exile who cannot return to Palestine?

Palestine has been the territory of Israel since they entered Canaan. They continued to occupy this territory because they were (more or less) Godly people.

Eventually God had enough and Israel was split in two, one part going into captivity by the Assyrians, never to be seen again, the other part into Babylonian captivity.

Now they are back on the land. If it was divine right, then they would occupy all their ancient land, not just what they currently hold. Why is this not the case? You hit the nail on the head. Israel can not claim their divine right because they are not holding up their end of the deal. There are responsibilities that go with the right, and Israel's responsibility is to live in full covenant with their God. Until they do this, they will continue to lose land to their neighbours.

I personally believe that if Israel continues to conduct themselves in the way they are currently, then God will only step in when their very existence is about to be extinguished. Until then, they're on their own.

reply to post by grimghost


Nobody, no human of any race has any divine right.

Anybody who thinks so is delusional and working towards self-destruction.

Creation's laws are very clear that all souls are equal and every soul has to suffer results of its actions.

So do not worry if some jews or some christians or some muslims think they are special in God's eyes. They are inviting their own destruction by such thinking.

reply to post by buster2010


Absolutely , God placed the importance on that land . And it is where the Temple must be rebuilt to accommodate the AC trying to claim the throne of God as well as the last battle of Armageddon .

reply to post by GargIndia


Jesus is the only way to God . The divine right to such a barren land is not a glorious thing except that God gave it to them and Jesus will come back there .