Obedience

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Charity is my devotion.

God is Charity and my critical thinking skills come in second to God. Like a common man I give the unshaped lump of clay that is my heart to the Master Potter.

That way my heart may be a vessel which is filled with love so that it may be poured out upon others, and it will always be refilled.

reply to post by backcase

Charity is my devotion.

"God" is only charitable when it's not really charity. His favors are bribes, but only he can see what the bribe is paying for.

God is Charity and my critical thinking skills come in second to God. Like a common man I give the unshaped lump of clay that is my heart to the Master Potter.

And my faith comes in second to my critical thinking skills. You can see what a difference it's made between us. I choose to determine the shape my heart will take by determining how I react to what happens to me, and what I take from the experiences I go through. If you need someone to make that decision for you, then your will is comparable to a wet noodle. Why give you free will at all? You obviously have no inclination to make your own decisions or choose your own destiny. You don't need a personality at all.

That way my heart may be a vessel which is filled with love so that it may be poured out upon others, and it will always be refilled.

Yep, like an empty cup designed to be used again and again by those who give not a second thought to its existence or loss thereof. There's always more where that cup came from, and none of them has any more purpose than to please those who possess them.

I can see how your life has so much meaning now.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


the cup fulfills its purpose.

I use my free will to admire the will of God.

And if I delight in charity then I am filled with God, and others who receive my charity receive God and they may choose charity.

Charity is the foundation of all virtues, try looking for it in them, it's there you will see it.

reply to post by backcase

the cup fulfills its purpose.

I use my free will to admire the will of God.

And if I delight in charity then I am filled with God, and others who receive my charity receive God and they may choose charity.

Charity is the foundation of all virtues, try looking for it in them, it's there you will see it.

But I've already explained that "God" isn't charitable, he's just clever. Everything he has ever done was done with the understanding that he wanted something in return, and if he didn't get it, then there would be terrible consequences. As a cup, you are an implement, a pawn, and nothing more. So you spend your whole life as a human striving to be anything but human. That's...wow. I don't even know what to say about that. I guess that's just sad.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


"But I've already explained that "God" isn't charitable, he's just clever."

I disagree. God is Charity.

"As a cup, you are an implement, a pawn, and nothing more. So you spend your whole life as a human striving to be anything but human."

Maybe I did not explain the analogy correctly. If use my human life to practice superhuman virtue I inspire it in others, but of myself I can do nothing, with God all things are possible. I am happy to live in Him as He lives in me.

Call it sad, but you are judging what you do not know.

I think it's sad that you think by judging everyone so complexly that you confuse them, you think that you are right, better, or even good at all.

Like it or not, I am a part of you, I am the part that screams beneath your dullness and depraved sense of wonderment.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

reply to post by backcase

"But I've already explained that "God" isn't charitable, he's just clever."

I disagree. God is Charity.

Prove it.

"As a cup, you are an implement, a pawn, and nothing more. So you spend your whole life as a human striving to be anything but human."

Maybe I did not explain the analogy correctly. If use my human life to practice superhuman virtue I inspire it in others, but of myself I can do nothing, with God all things are possible. I am happy to live in Him as He lives in me.

How do you know what is superhuman when you don't yet understand what it means to be human? You still believe imperfection to be a handicap, a curse to teach us the price of being mortal and ignorant. When you understand the true nature of imperfection, you will begin to comprehend the consequences and possibilities of being superhuman. When you have come to terms with, and embraced, the darkness inherent in all of existence, you will be better equipped for seeking light.

Call it sad, but you are judging what you do not know.

I think it's sad that you think by judging everyone so complexly that you confuse them, you think that you are right, better, or even good at all.

I do not judge people, I analyze their actions according to the bigger picture. The conclusions I have shared with you are conclusions derived from acknowledging and accepting that there is a purpose to everything, and that denying one side of a penny does not make the other side worth more.

Like it or not, I am a part of you, I am the part that screams beneath your dullness and depraved sense of wonderment.

I'm dull and depraved? Who is judging who now?


reply to post by backcase

Birds born in a pet shop will believe captivity to be freedom.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


we can argue this way all day, man, but it will not change what is. God is.

you see the love of God as slavery, I see it how I see it.

You will not change the way I see, the only way I will change is if I see differently. So far, I have not.

I feel like you have seen the right way, but deliberately chose the wrong way.

reply to post by backcase

you see the love of God as slavery, I see it how I see it.

I see your chosen deity as the murderer of over 20 million people. I see your deity as the erector of doctrines and the violator of the same. I see your deity as a being who demands respect while giving none, and who cannot grant a favor without expecting a favor in return. I see your deity as an Orwellian being of contradictory nature whose very behavior belies the principles he seeks to instill in his world.

In short, I see your deity as one of the worst mythical beings ever to enter the minds of men, and I will be glad to see his throne overturned and his reign ended when a new age dawns. You see it how you see it because you don't care to see it any other way. It's much easy to stick to an old understanding than to form a new one, and my understanding simply is not worth the effort in your opinion. It gives you nothing because you must make something for yourself instead of expecting it to be granted in return for obeisance and subjugation. That is not love, it is oppression.

Oh, and you have still failed to prove that your god is a god of charity rather than one of political favors.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I am done replying to you in this thread. we disagree.

Sometimes it's better to agree that we disagree just for the sake of peace.

but when I make a thread concerning a certain thought which you have provoked in my mind, I will shoot you a message and let you know.

Oh and living is enough evidence to see that God is Charity.

reply to post by backcase

Oh and living is enough evidence to see that God is Charity.

"God" didn't give me life or charity. Alcohol and hormones gave me life, and people with compassion and empathy give me charity sometimes. The rest I do for myself because I don't rely on a deity to make my life better or show me what to do. I like to rely on myself and a sparce circle of close friends - that way, no matter what kind of bind I get into, I always have someone I can turn to.

Even if it's me.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Dear AfterInfinity,

My belief is that God doesn't send people to Hell, they choose it for themselves. Heaven is considered to be face to face with God and seeing beauty, love, and goodness. Hell is considered to be a situation where one is completely separated from God with no hope of ever seeing His face.

There are some people who say "I hate God, He is a monster, I don't want anything to do with Him, I'll rely on myself." After death God simply (and terrifyingly) says "Ok, I respect your free choice and decision. You can go some place where there will never be even a hint of Me."

You have free choice, AfterInfinity. Why not give it a thought when you have the time?

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Dear AfterInfinity,

My belief is that God doesn't send people to Hell, they choose it for themselves. Heaven is considered to be face to face with God and seeing beauty, love, and goodness. Hell is considered to be a situation where one is completely separated from God with no hope of ever seeing His face.

There are some people who say "I hate God, He is a monster, I don't want anything to do with Him, I'll rely on myself." After death God simply (and terrifyingly) says "Ok, I respect your free choice and decision. You can go some place where there will never be even a hint of Me."

You have free choice, AfterInfinity. Why not give it a thought when you have the time?

With respect,
Charles1952

IF one knew of the existence of "hell" to be a fact... wouldn't said person do anything they could to avoid such a place?

up to and including... everything the "religious establishments" told them to do?

Ironically the same "establishment" which made up the myth in the first place?

reply to post by charles1952

Dear AfterInfinity,

My belief is that God doesn't send people to Hell, they choose it for themselves. Heaven is considered to be face to face with God and seeing beauty, love, and goodness. Hell is considered to be a situation where one is completely separated from God with no hope of ever seeing His face.

My belief is that there is no such thing as a god. "God" is just a crude label we use to designate something we are aware of as an idea but don't yet have the capacity to explore with any significant results. Ergo, everything else you just mentioned falls under subcategories of that nature.

There are some people who say "I hate God, He is a monster, I don't want anything to do with Him, I'll rely on myself." After death God simply (and terrifyingly) says "Ok, I respect your free choice and decision. You can go some place where there will never be even a hint of Me."

That's not how it is described. That sounds like a personal interpretation.

You have free choice, AfterInfinity. Why not give it a thought when you have the time?

My feelings in the matter would change considerably if, under the condition that any gods do exist, one were to approach me in the flesh and have a lengthy conversation with me. Should such an event occur, and I am shown such respect and equality and sincerity, my feelings would likely change. How so, I cannot say.

reply to post by Akragon

Dear Akragon,

This is indeed a pleasure, talking with the great one again.

IF one knew of the existence of "hell" to be a fact... wouldn't said person do anything they could to avoid such a place?

But, as you well know, we have no scientific proof of anything supernatural. Of course, if it was an absolute guarantee, then almost all would choose to avoid Hell. But consider the dozens of risky things we do, and sometimes die from, based on the belief that there is no guarantee that we'll be hurt by using a trampoline when we're falling down drunk, for example.

We're always willing to take risks. But there is another group of people, which I suspect is quite large, and I hope doesn't include AfterInfinity, about whom Milton wrote in Paradise Lost:

Here at least
we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
to reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

To which God says, "Be it as you wish."

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by backcase

Obedience

You mean Love and Care and Respect and Understanding of the Human phenomena.

That is Obedience to beyond Human condition...hard to understand I know.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Akragon

 

Dear Akragon,

This is indeed a pleasure, talking with the great one again.

IF one knew of the existence of "hell" to be a fact... wouldn't said person do anything they could to avoid such a place?

But, as you well know, we have no scientific proof of anything supernatural. Of course, if it was an absolute guarantee, then almost all would choose to avoid Hell. But consider the dozens of risky things we do, and sometimes die from, based on the belief that there is no guarantee that we'll be hurt by using a trampoline when we're falling down drunk, for example.

We're always willing to take risks. But there is another group of people, which I suspect is quite large, and I hope doesn't include AfterInfinity, about whom Milton wrote in Paradise Lost:

Here at least
we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
to reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

To which God says, "Be it as you wish."

With respect,
Charles1952

The great one lol...

im just a slick kitty... Nothing too great honestly

You see... taking risks is to truly live... What kind of life would it be if we never took risks? Risk is the spice of life... yet are we really talking about life here?

We're talking about what happens after this life... and although it hasn't been proven... Its obvious that there is life beyond this "incarnation"... This is where the church or "religious establishments" play on our innate fear of the unknown... In the case of "hell" the traditional idea came from a story written in the 1300's... and embellished from there...

Before that time there wasn't a belief in a firey pit... For example... Jesus said certain people are "in danger of Hell fire"... He did not mean a lake of fire... or some mythical place where demons torture people.

Along the same lines of thought... he also said "i came to bring fire to the earth"

Do you recall him tossing fireballs around or anything of the sort?

The idea of "Hell" is used as a control method and a conversion tactic over the populous...

It completely negates the idea that the Father is a loving merciful creator... even onto the so called "evil" people of the world...

reply to post by Akragon


A question I've often asked is: if emulating the principles of Jesus were to guarantee a Christian a seat in Hell, would the Christian still emulate the principles of Jesus? If damnation were our definitive reward for compassion and kindness, how many would still make a point to exercise such virtues?

That, I think, is the true test of the precise extent our survival influences our virtues. I'd be intensely interested to observe the results of that experiment. Because if obedience to any deity is more a survival mechanism than we are encouraged to believe, that belies the morally obligatory aspect of it.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Akragon

 

A question I've often asked is: if emulating the principles of Jesus were to guarantee a Christian a seat in Hell, would the Christian still emulate the principles of Jesus? If damnation were our definitive reward for compassion and kindness, how many would still make a point to exercise such virtues?

That, I think, is the true test of the precise extent our survival influences our virtues. I'd be intensely interested to observe the results of that experiment. Because if obedience to any deity is more a survival mechanism than we are encouraged to believe, that belies the morally obligatory aspect of it.

edit on 10-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

That's an interesting question actually...

So hypothetically what would this "hell" be like?

If compassion, charity, and a loving nature lands one in "hell"... would the place be all lovey dovey? Like sitting around singing cumbaya... and playing patty cake?

That would be hellish to me honestly...

Almost more so then any lake of fire

reply to post by Akragon

That's an interesting question actually...

So hypothetically what would this "hell" be like?

Exactly the same hell we hear about in churches today. Otherwise, there's no point to the question.