Israel 'to stop using white phosphorus shells'

I thought this was interesting to come across, given recent discussions and the prospects of further conflict in the Middle East. It seems the Israeli Defense Force has decided to drop the use of W.P. munitions entirely, for alternatives that work just as well, without the controversy or frankly, human costs when it does hit people.

The Israeli military says it is to stop using artillery shells with white phosphorus to create smokescreens on the battlefield.

It says shells will be replaced with types based completely on gas, which will create the same effect.

I'd say this is generally good news. While I know not everyone is likely to take it at face value, I'd say any progress on removing things that can and do cause suffering beyond what war already brings is a good thing all around.

As a weapon, white phosphorus is used to mark enemy targets and to produce smoke for concealing troop movements. It can also be used as an incendiary device against enemy positions.

Its effects however can be extremely harmful. If burning white phosphorus lands on a person's skin, it can go through to the bone. Toxic phosphoric acid can also be released into wounds, risking phosphorus poisoning.

(Source)

It is, admittedly one of the more devastating things to be hit with during war. Either by design or by unintentional overlap from it's intended use. The person hit by it doesn't know or care the difference, I'm sure.

I dare not say war can be made kinder or gentler. Never has there been a more clear example of an oxymoron than 'gentler war'. At the same time, it would be perfectly fair to say that war can be made LESS horrific than it currently is, in many cases. So, whatever the motives and whatever the past, I'm happy to find this to share with everyone. It's a step in the right direction, whatever else has been said about it.

I know two Vietnam vets who where hit with this stuffs, one of them
does not have most of his face, one of his favorite things that messes
with people is to pull off his ear and play piano with it lol, a talented
pianist on a different subject. The other fellow i know, most of his upper
body was burned, the effects this type of weapon has on humans is
brutal and just plain wrong, all the controversy about isreal aside i am
glad they chose to do this.

So instead of dropping white poph their dropping gas.


surely the gas isnt going to be healthy for humans to breathe anyway..


ahhhh Israel! changing the laws of warfare since 1946!

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I thought that they had denied using white phosphorus, and indeed I was correct: news.bbc.co.uk...

How do you know that a government (any government) official is lying?
Their lips are moving.

Originally posted by creatives
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I thought that they had denied using white phosphorus, and indeed I was correct: news.bbc.co.uk...

How do you know that a government (any government) official is lying?
Their lips are moving.

Indeed... That is a disturbing article. All the more reason I'm quite happy to hear they are doing away with the use of these munitions entirely and not simply keeping them in inventory to argue later over how they were or were not used.

It means good news going forward, to my thinking. Perhaps, the issues of the past and that conflict in particular are what brought this about? I'm thinking the two probably are related, but that's guess work and secondary to the idea that it simply won't be there to use now. Mistakenly or otherwise.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by creatives
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I thought that they had denied using white phosphorus, and indeed I was correct: news.bbc.co.uk...

How do you know that a government (any government) official is lying?
Their lips are moving.

Indeed... That is a disturbing article. All the more reason I'm quite happy to hear they are doing away with the use of these munitions entirely and not simply keeping them in inventory to argue later over how they were or were not used.

It means good news going forward, to my thinking. Perhaps, the issues of the past and that conflict in particular are what brought this about? I'm thinking the two probably are related, but that's guess work and secondary to the idea that it simply won't be there to use now. Mistakenly or otherwise.

Man, you are REALLY gullible. When concrete evidence finally piles up to the point where Israel's deceit of the use of these CHEMICAL weapons, when those badly burned skeletons in the closet finally speak, instead of an apology or anything of the sort, Israel simply says "we are not using these anymore." Oh thanks, Israel, for telling us that you will no longer be using something you supposedly never had in the first place. -.- Seriously wrabbit, how do you expect these words to actually mean something in terms of actions? One could refute that Israel (based on past statements) has no white phosphorous to do away with, therefore no actions need to be taken. There's just so much deception with all this that it's sickening. Israel needs to get its ass kicked fast, theyre the biggest little bully in the world right now, aside from us of course...

reply to post by doesntmakesense


I agree. Another feeble attempt to whitewash war crimes. Everyone knew they were using it. The apologists on these forums tried their hardest to pigeonhole those pointing it out as antisemitic conspiracy theorists. Then they go and admit it, in a roundabout sort of way and what do we get? "Oh its in the past, move on". Well, that's exactly what we would expect some to say, the very same people who said i wasn't happening.

LOL next they will be telling us they will disband all those nukes they dont have.

It's a shame so many these days seem to really thrive on hate.

Even when the State of Israel does the right thing, it's the wrong thing. I think the response says far more about those it comes from than the nation it's made about, quite frankly. In that way, it does speak loudly though.

fands
Wrabbit

I think sometimes the "why" separate from the propaganda is important
I make this comment not just of Israel, but of any "Don't let a good crisis go to waste" mentality.

Lets say hypothetically Israel bought a gas bomb concern or a politically connected banker or "other" bought one and greased some palms...or the US just sent them a boat load ( remember Rummy and Saddam and their friends the Iranians...hi oil dollar sales there....on both sides ) of FREEBIES...

Then there is the propaganda value
A win win situation

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


It says shells will be replaced with types based completely on gas,


For a 'country' that is all too familiar with Gas, I hope they consider the ramifications of their actions...it's only a matter of time before ALL sympathy for that rogue state dries up.

reply to post by facelift


I think the irony will be somewhat lost on them considering the ghettos they force Palestinians to live in.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
It's a shame so many these days seem to really thrive on hate.

Even when the State of Israel does the right thing, it's the wrong thing. I think the response says far more about those it comes from than the nation it's made about, quite frankly. In that way, it does speak loudly though.

It's like punching someone in the face then calling yourself a good Samaritan because you call them an ambulance. So ridiculous a position to take that it beggars belief, yet it doesn't seem to stop you. I think quite a few are astounded by this level of ignorance.

reply to post by threewisemonkeys

That is one way to put it. I see it as finding the worst to focus on and the hate to grab onto, no matter what the story, no matter what the topic, no matter what the details. Israel could do everything...every last thing some people here demand. They would still be condemned and cursed by those same people for either doing it too slowly, or not doing it quite to those people's satisfaction.

It's called obsession. It's called a level of darkness in seeing events, people and in this case, a whole nation, that borders on mental illness.

I think, as I said, it's a pathetic statement on those saying it....not the nation it's being said about. This story is about as positive a one as has come on the general topic ....and people use it to compare them to using "gas" like the holocaust. That's not simply ignorance. That's illness. It's hate to the point of outright illness.

.....and it's a sad thing to see. It's simply a self destructive and self defeating emotion. You know the sad thing? Israel doesn't care how much you or anyone else hates it. It goes on without a second thought or care either way. Only those hating ...care, and that's the only one the damage is done to. What a dark place to live.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Incidentally ... For the warped thinking that read this story and saw the 'gas' reference as a new way to make Holocaust jokes (WOW...some people need counseling), that is a reference to the ways to generate smoke to obscure the field of battle. W.P., in the context Israel has used it, officially anyway, has been for that purpose. The replacements, being "gas" based, refer to the OTHER globally accepted technology to generate the same effect and the same tactical advantage on the battlefield. A simple smoke grenade, outside the toy variety found in a fireworks stand or novelty shop, is based, often, on what is described that way.

I'm rather shocked that people would or could draw the mental comparison to Zyklon-B, as has clearly been done here.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
You know the sad thing? Israel doesn't care how much you or anyone else hates it. It goes on without a second thought or care either way. Only those hating ...care, and that's the only one the damage is done to. What a dark place to live.

Most people are well aware of the arrogance of Israel, and it is why it they are ever increasingly hated as a nation. Statements like 'we're going to stop using white phosphorus shells' are an absurdity when they denied ever using them. You say this is people pointing out the negative, what they are actually doing is pointing out this absurdity for what it is.

The mantra of the apologist is "Israel can do no wrong". Even when they admit to doing wrong, it's a good thing according to you. It really is laughable.

Not exactly sure why this has to be solely a subject to relate to Israel. I mean, I understand that hating the Jewish nation is trendy and popular right now... and we all have to march to the beat of the same drum. But, Israel is not the only nation to use this weapon.

I spent a number of years on a 155mm SP Howitzer when in the service and we regularly practiced with 'Willy Pete' rounds. besides being a smoke screen (which is rather silly), WP is an excellent anti-personnel weapon for an enemy that is either well entrenched or distributed in heavily wooded areas. And yes, it is not a friendly weapon and can burn through clothing and skin. But, then again, what combat weapon is 'nice'?

I'm sure getting shot or having a leg blown off is not something that stands out as being very pleasant. That's what makes war something we should work to eliminate altogether. Simply taking away one or two uglies here and there really doesn't change much... except make us think we did something good when, in fact, we didn't.

So we should praise them for making this "good" decision, for a kind of warfare that has been banned ages ago?. Tell that to all those victims, hey look man i'm sorry you last half your face, but look on the bright side, we stopped using them. Now lets go play with aa dreidel.

*shrugs*

reply to post by threewisemonkeys


They never denied using them. That misreading of their statements, intentional or not, is what makes it hard to take the points which follow, however well spoken, seriously. It speaks to the agenda the whole statement is made from.

What Israel has denied, officially, is using this ordinance in the way and for the purposes it's been accused. I don't defend what they've done and I recall the UN food warehouse they burned part way to the ground during a recent incursion. I say it that way because I'm well aware it's been another installment in an ongoing Saga.

There too though, some would portray them as an evil little empire, oppressing the poor victims of a lost people, simply striving for a homeland. That would ignore the scores of rockets, mortars and other forms of attack out of the Gaza Strip into the residential neighborhoods of Southern Israel.

This is probably the largest point of contention I have with the "Hate Israel first, last and always" crowd. I don't see Israel as the good guys, but nor do I see them as heinous monsters.


For every W.P. artillery round they fired with far less than diligent concerns (at best) for where it landed, there is a suicide bombing at a pizza joint that murdered innocents. For every rocket Israel has fired into a Hamas vehicle to kill it's leadership ...and killed Palestinian civilians in the "collateral damage", there is a Katyusha rocket into a civilian neighborhood, north of the line, which kills or comes very near killing people who did nothing to die for.

This is a two sided conflict ...and it's a cold fact, some hate so much as a routine course of business in life, they willfully fail to acknowledge. That is what I have a problem with and it's a big one.

This story is the most extreme solution Israel and the Israeli Defense Force could have come to on this matter. It isn't simply a promise to never use them in the way they've been accused of ...which IS what they've denied, but to NEVER USE them for anything, anywhere, ever again. Not even stock the munition type in their inventory.

What more could possibly be asked, going forward? Yet, it's still not even enough to aknowledge as an effort....which IS both sad and pathetic.


For what it's worth, as little respect as I have for the scumbag terrorists of the Hamas leadership in Gaza? I'd give THEM just bit of respect and acknowledgement as well...if they'd do a simple thing like remove the language that says nothing short of the total destruction of Israel and everyone IN IT is their only acceptable goal and end point for conflict. Two sided......VERY two sided. Nothing over there is half as simple as some would like to make it sound.

Originally posted by creatives
I thought that they had denied using white phosphorus, and indeed I was correct:

No you were not, they never said they didn't use WP, which also is not illegal for smoke screen producing.