Arctic Ice Melt "has the momentum of a runaway train."

Originally posted by spyder550
This is obviously a false alarm -- I looked up the crack pot who is pointing this out -- I can't believe the governments are believing this guy -- and he is a foreigner to boot.

www.uwa.edu.au...

crackpot?????.....your very own link shows this man is NOT a crackpot. I guess the people that are employed by oil companies are the truthers

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by spyder550
This is obviously a false alarm -- I looked up the crack pot who is pointing this out -- I can't believe the governments are believing this guy -- and he is a foreigner to boot.

www.uwa.edu.au...

crackpot?????.....your very own link shows this man is NOT a crackpot. I guess the people that are employed by oil companies are the truthers

You might want to revisit the word -- facetious

Originally posted by Britguy
reply to post by spyder550

 

Melting permafrost, methane locked at the bottom of the oceans, that's a strange one. Surface temperature just doesn't cut it here, it's almost as if the it's a sub-surface temperature change driving this from below rather than the air or water temperatures above. Warm water will remain at the upper levels of the oceans, not sink to the depths, the same way that warm air will rise, not sit at the surface and melt permafrost.
Given the record frigid temperatures we have had over the last couple of years in many of the places where the permafrost exists, you's think the ground would remain frozen to a good depth keeping the methane locked in. If it is continuing to melt though then the sub-surface ground must be warming from beneath.

The problem with the ice melting is that it allows the sunlight to warm more water. The ice causes an effect (albedo) that reflects the sunlight back into the atmosphere and insulates the underlying water. If the ice isn't there and the water drops to - 1 degree centigrade (metlting point of methane hydrate) the methane is released. The methane hydrate the is concentrated in the shallows off Siberia is in particular jeopardy. As the methane is released the warming problem increases and causes more methane to be released. Rinse wash repeat. This methane has not been a problem for millions of years because it has been trapped - til now.

The observation is that the process has started. The downside there is not a practical way of stopping it.

You are right about the dividing line between warm and cold water. It is the hydrotherm I have been a diver since 1964 - at that division you can put one hand in warm water and one in cold. If the shelf is above that division the water will be warm and be warmed by the sun.

That is my understanding -- you can fact check me -- I am old but still get old school science.

I have to admit, I did not have time to read all of the responses. I had to say though, yes we had storms in February that may have broken up some ice, but we are also experiencing the COLDEST spring on record in Alaska! They are forecasting that it will melt even faster this year, when it hasn't really started melting in the first place for the season. I live near the southern coast, so we don't have much ice left here, but there is still some in the water, in May! This is crazy, I should be planting my gardens in 3 days, and where the snow has bothered to start melting, the soil is still frozen solid. We are so out of whack up here this year it is ridiculous, and it's not because it is warming.

Originally posted by fleabit
People are such fools.. we are going to laugh our way into extinction.


Why is it so hard to believe it IS actions by humans that caused this? Even very small unnatural transgressions against nature often have very noticeable and negative results. And we are not doing anything small on a global scale. Methane is where it has never been before.. and will go higher still. And you folks would like everyone to believe it's just a "cycle." That we are just coincidentally hitting it NOW, during a few hundred hears of huge industrial growth, in the span of 10s of thousands of years.

Just because you don't understand why doesn't mean it's not happening. Just because it MIGHT not be humans doesn't mean it's a good idea to bury our collective heads in the sand and just "hope for the best."

So...what was the cause of the previous millions of climate changes from the history of our planet? Can't blame those on humans.

Pure hubris...if we caused these conditions then we can stop them as well. Fact is, we cannot. The earth is such a large entity that there is virtually nothing we can do to affect weather in a positive way.

The carbon credits idea is a sham. Limiting greenhouse gasses are a joke, unless we go ahead and reduce the human population (as well as domesticated animals) to levels common with those of 2-4 thousand years ago. At the same time we would either need to develop an energy source that is completely green and contributes nothing negative to the environment or we would need to pretty much eliminate virtually all of our vehicles and factories and technologies. No more air conditioning, no more heating...not even wood fires. Can you imagine 7 billion people warming themselves with wood fires? lol

The earth has it's own balancing mechanisms and will employ these whether we are around or not. They may not be favorable to humans, but somehow I do not think Mother Nature really cares about that.

Originally posted by BlueMule
Not enough time for technology to save us, unless there are super-advances hidden from the public.

Only woo-woo can save us now...

Superman Al Gore had plenty of cash. Maybe he can save us?

And Nero keeps fiddling ..... This a perfect example of mixing partisan politics with science -- the science gets ignored and the my side says science is bad shouts it from the roof tops. Tick Tock

Originally posted by catswithbigpaws
When Arctic sea ice melts, the sea levels actually get lower because the ice displaces a higher volume of water than its liquid form. Continental ice is the problem because it adds water to the ocean that hasn't been there. Greenland is an example of this.

You're right about continental ice melting, everyone gets that right, but nobody seems to get the effect of sea ice melting right. Most people seem to think it has no effect and you have it backwards thinking it causes a decrease.

Melting sea ice actually causes an increase too, but it's a very small increase relative to melting continental ice:

Melting of Floating Ice Will Raise Sea Level

I don't really argue with people who say it melting sea ice won't change sea levels because the change is pretty small, but in your case I had to disagree since you claimed a decrease. How small is the increase? It could add up to 4 centimeters in total according to Dr. Peter Noerdlinger:

Noerdlinger demonstrates that melt water from sea ice and floating ice shelves could add 2.6% more water to the ocean than the water displaced by the ice, or the equivalent of approximately 4 centimeters (1.57 inches) of sea-level rise.

There's even a small demonstration at that link showing the increase from floating ice melting.

To give you a good visual of just how fast the Arctic ice has retreated since 1979, check out my friend Andy's video that has started to go viral on YouTube. He is a programmer and made a program using PIOMAS records to develop this animation. It got passed on to the White House for viewing after they watched "Chasing Ice". I would love to be a fly on the wall for their emergency meeting.

Video of Arctic Sea Ice Loss from 1979-2012
dorsi.hubpages.com...

Originally posted by spyder550
And Nero keeps fiddling ..... This a perfect example of mixing partisan politics with science -- the science gets ignored and the my side says science is bad shouts it from the roof tops. Tick Tock

All the phony science and falsified data presented a few years ago in support of global warming probably set the whole movement back by years.

Some people think that the ends justify the means, specially if I know better than you what is right.

Originally posted by bbracken677

Originally posted by spyder550
And Nero keeps fiddling ..... This a perfect example of mixing partisan politics with science -- the science gets ignored and the my side says science is bad shouts it from the roof tops. Tick Tock

All the phony science and falsified data presented a few years ago in support of global warming probably set the whole movement back by years.

Some people think that the ends justify the means, specially if I know better than you what is right.

Just because some folks to a shortcut (junk science) to try to prove Global Warming does not mean it is not happening..... Many scientists are funded via studies, studies often paid for by one side or the other. When this happens they scientists often find results favoring their provider of paychecks.

One can't deny the visual evidence.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


When are you to wake up to what lies and propaganda you are spreading to deny Global Warming, spread by the oil companies and the bankers to keep on conducting business as usual.

The is NO money in climate science. All the big money is being spent to deny global warming.

Fact, Global Warming is happening, that ships are crossing the Arctic Ocean in summer time is proof of that.

Fact, CO2 and Mehane cause global warming and their levels has increased dramatically over the last 100 years as the planet has heated up.

Fact, The solar system is not heating heating up because of the sun, solar activity has been lower than normal the last few decades. This has been debunked on numerous forums. You claim we don't have the ability to monitor warming on our own planet, and then turn around and claim we have proven the whole solar system has heated up. This is pure drivel.

Fact - The solar system is supposed to enter an area of space with higher energy, but it hasn't happened yet. Your own quotes state this.

Fact - volcanos have been erupting in the ocean forever. There is no evidence what so ever that the rate of volcanic eruptions has increased, and your links provide none. Just more wild speculation.

Why do the people so vehnemeny hate the the scientist who are providing research on our planet?

Why do people support the position of big oil and corporate bankers? Are you hoping for a position in the new world empire or something?

Guess what, the ICBs are laughing at you.

I find it very interesting that I have been told my whole life (I am thirty now) that global warming is caused by co2. and now I am being told that methane (A greenhouse gas about 100x more powerful than c02) is the real issue. Yay! I feel like I am being lied to or misled, by who I do not know, Just feels like I am.

reply to post by poet1b


Good luck trying to change a deniers mind poet. They are like the Birthers........ No amount of truth or proof will work for them.

Originally posted by Squirtmcgirt
I find it very interesting that I have been told my whole life (I am thirty now) that global warming is caused by co2. and now I am being told that methane (A greenhouse gas about 100x more powerful than c02) is the real issue. Yay! I feel like I am being lied to or misled, by who I do not know, Just feels like I am.

Your whole life scientists have been trying to tell you the truth. CO2 is a greenhouse gas METHANE is a green house gas. Methane is a many times more effective greenhouse gas way worse than CO2. CO2 has warmed things enough that massive amounts of an even more effective greenhouse gas may be released. Millions of years worth of green house gas.

Think of the Methane as the sword of Damocles the CO2 is a candle placed near the straining horsehair. You are sitting on the throne.

What is referred to as junk science is wrong - it was just science. Science works toward an answer, it changes and evolves. If this plays out like it looks that it may, you will live in "interesting times"

Originally posted by spyder550

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by spyder550
This is obviously a false alarm -- I looked up the crack pot who is pointing this out -- I can't believe the governments are believing this guy -- and he is a foreigner to boot.

www.uwa.edu.au...

crackpot?????.....your very own link shows this man is NOT a crackpot. I guess the people that are employed by oil companies are the truthers

You might want to revisit the word -- facetious

oops, ok... I sometimes get a little too serious...I 100% agree with you....too many people think that if it's not getting hotter every moth, every year, there is no such thing as global warming...and like you, said the methane release is going to be the killer

The guys cred is pretty good and he isn't a US scientist that is all tied up with special interests or grants or beholden to all kinds evil special plots to make the environment better.

Me i dont believe co2 emissions is increasing global temperature i think its the removing the rain forest, which means less plants and higher concentrations of co2 want to stop global warming save the rainforests from devastation. I think were looking at the wrong cause of rising co2. If you let the earth take care of it she will by producing more plants if we don't destroy them. I also think its insane to try to stop countries from using fosil fuels instead its time we find cheap alternatives no one wants to freeze in the winter or go back to riding horses and do you think no matter how hard developing countries try to cut back on co2 its going to even make a dent when 3rd world countries are increasing there use? China is close to 25 percent of the worlds emissions now and increasing they have a billion people there so unless where willing to kill off people i suggest we find an effective way to remove co2 from the atmosphere or as i said find a cheap alternative and stop cutting down all the trees for gods sake.

reply to post by dragonridr


Where is your science??

Originally posted by Mamatus

Originally posted by bbracken677

Originally posted by spyder550
And Nero keeps fiddling ..... This a perfect example of mixing partisan politics with science -- the science gets ignored and the my side says science is bad shouts it from the roof tops. Tick Tock

All the phony science and falsified data presented a few years ago in support of global warming probably set the whole movement back by years.

Some people think that the ends justify the means, specially if I know better than you what is right.

Just because some folks to a shortcut (junk science) to try to prove Global Warming does not mean it is not happening..... Many scientists are funded via studies, studies often paid for by one side or the other. When this happens they scientists often find results favoring their provider of paychecks.

One can't deny the visual evidence.

I wasnt suggesting that there is no climate change. I was suggesting that jerks using psuedo-science and falsified data hurt more than helped the cause.

I know there is climate change happening, and indeed would be surprised if it weren't. As a former geologist this period we are currently in has been unusual in it's mild weather/climate. Historically earth has been very different and will most assuredly be very different again. To expect the mild climate of the last couple of hundred years to continue without change is naive at best.