Why should Immoral people change?

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Well, I was speaking on the macro- level. If you want to know what changes a person on the micro, or individual level then people need to abandon selfishness, abandon greed. People need to be motivated to serve others, to care more about their wellbeing and needs more than one's own. They need to have a desire to see their fellow man prosper and have a better life than they desire for themselves.

yes, but why would anyone do that?
I think a God concious person would naturally do it.
What about the others?

"Why would anyone do that?"?? BECAUSE it's the RIGHT THING to do. God has nothing to do with it!

reply to post by logical7


But god is the one who set society up.

What do you think those conquests of the Hebrews were for? To expand "god's" territory and to force his societal ideals on others. Religion is what controls society and is a main factor in it's construction. What do you think the Law was for? To shape society in a certain way.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Who ever said that criminal law is made on "forgiveness",

the whole abolishing of capital punishment thing.

Only atheist can think that a criminal who did not value another life should be allowed to live as their is nothing after death and the one who died is already dead so lets not worry about the victim.

And why do you think atheists reject your god? Because they know the crimes that Yahweh committed in the OT, they are against killing, which is exactly why they do not believe in your god.

Apparently atheists are more against murder than you are because you condone all the genocides that your god committed.

Well I do believe - that there are some crimes - so reprehensible - that it warrants a direct ticket back to the source. Whether there is something waiting in death or nothing. Serial killers come to mind.

But I do believe every one knows right from wrong. Regardless of religion, culture, or whatever belief. The problem comes about when people us the concept of god to justify wrong doing.

Don't do that. It's wrong.

Cirque

Interesting thread. I dig ATS for this. Intelligent conversations with bright folks (mostly

Here is a clinic in morality.

reply to post by logical7


There are two basic theories about morals:

1. They are objective, absolute, universal laws.
2. They are subjective, relative, societal preferences.

It is impossible to discuss morals with persons who subscribe to #2.

The morals described in #1 are laws similar to math, science and logic.
The amorality described in #2 are societal preferences which change from century to century.

There are objective absolute universal laws in the world:
MATH: 1+1=2
SCIENCE: O + H2 = H2O (water)
LOGIC: If A=B + B=C then A=C.
Morals are the same station of objective absolute universal LAWS.

For instance:
It is immoral anywhere in the world to mutilate and kill your neighbors two year old female daughter.
It is immoral anywhere in the world to steal to satisfy greed. as opposed to hunger.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Well, I was speaking on the macro- level. If you want to know what changes a person on the micro, or individual level then people need to abandon selfishness, abandon greed. People need to be motivated to serve others, to care more about their wellbeing and needs more than one's own. They need to have a desire to see their fellow man prosper and have a better life than they desire for themselves.

yes, but why would anyone do that?
I think a God concious person would naturally do it.
What about the others?

According to the Christian position I would say that all people are born with God's laws naturally programmed into their consciousness. And to act on love, being unselfish, and wanting the best for one's fellow man IS natural behavior, even if the person doesn't acknowledge the God who created that person to behave in such a way.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


basic human nature in the
abrahamic religions is evil
and deprived.

reply to post by slugger9787

basic human nature in the
abrahamic religions is evil
and deprived.

Do you mean "deprived", or "depraved"?

And yes......they do say that 'basic human nature' is "Evil."
I totally do NOT believe in "original sin" stuff.
That belief is what causes "perpetual shame" and "fear" in people.

Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

basic human nature in the
abrahamic religions is evil
and deprived.

No, basic human nature is the way God created man, in the image of Himself which is to love. Sin corrupts that.

reply to post by wildtimes


Yep, you hit the nail on the head.

What original sin basically is is those who wrote the bible and who put it together passing the blame onto other people. We are not born sinners.

When we finally see a baby commit murder or lie, then maybe I would think about considering it, but until then I will consider it a load of bull####.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

God is not needed to instill moral values on people, it comes naturally with growth. If that were the case, atheists would be the main reason for violence in the world, but in most cases it is the religious that commit immoral acts in the name of their god. All those militant Muslims? They worship the same god as you.

God has already instilled morals in each by birth, some forget and need the fear to come back to the right morals.
What makes you think atheists having morals is a virtue they earned somehow?

I am not talking about moral people. I am talking about immoral ones among theists and atheists.

The militant muslims need to have more knowledge of God and fear speculations that they make to justify killing innocents because God knows the heart, excuses don't work with God.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

i am not looking for a particular answer, i have an answer and looking for it to be refuted.

Perhaps you might share with us.......What is your answer? That would get the discussion really going.....
rather than us "pussy-footing" around it trying to figure it out.
Get to the point, man!

my answer is a bit lengthy. In short i'l say that give the immoral people a reason to fear the consequences. It can easily work on religious people who are doing it due to ignorance just thinking they are right. So better knowledge will be good for them.

For bad atheist, well they will change only if they want to till then the good people in the society keep them in check.

reply to post by logical7


Doesn't the bible say that there is no fear in love? Doesn't it also say that god is love? So why does a god of love require fear to be moral? If he requires fear, he is not love because there is no fear in love.

Here's the verse:

1 John 4
18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

How do you reconcile this with your beliefs?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

Well, some science shows that nicotine actually has lots of benefits. But yeah, that's another thread (already in progress), and its not mine.

What about beer?

ya nicotine is fine, its the other chemicals that are carcinogenic. i hope you use one with a good filter.

Beer!
i heard that having it makes girls appear more pretty!
I don't know any other benefits.

I do know that a lot can lead to immoral acts. So its Haram(forbidden) in Islam

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
When we finally see a baby commit murder or lie, then maybe I would think about considering it, but until then I will consider it a load of bull####.

where did you get the idea that
lying or murder was immoral and wrong?