Why should Immoral people change?

reply to post by Akragon


But he DID place the OP in the Religion/Faith forum...so, I'm guessing that's the angle from which he wants to approach it.

Maybe he should've put it in Philosophy forum?
I don't know. We'll just have to wait and see. I suppose I could type out what he's told me as I understand it, but that seems unfair.

As far as I can tell, he thinks that theocracy is the best idea, because leaders who fear God's wrath and judgment have more reasons to not act tyrannical than secular leaders do.
I hope he hurries up! *drums fingers on desk - decides to go buy new supply of smokes while waiting*
.....

reply to post by wildtimes


Hey! Smoking is bad for you.

*lights cigarette* Mind if I join you?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Not at all!
Did you know there's a special "room" in hell just for smokers? Frealz, someone said that. Some girl who says she had a "vision" or a "revelation" of some sort.


But, that could also fit into the OP - is smoking "immoral"? Not in my thinking. But in many others' minds, it is.

*looks around* Where the hell is he??

Okay, just to keep things moving along...
here is his last post that prompted the thread:

I had said my premise is that Religion does not create morality. Forced religion is not a good thing.
He answered:

yes what you say is correct, more precisely half correct.
Religion does not create morality. God has created morality and has given freedom to be immoral.
Immorality can be prevented/reversed by belief in a religion/God.

You have not given a satisfactory answer to why immoral non-religious/atheist people should change? what motivator?

Forced anything is not good, i am not in favour of forced religion but you are assuming that a religious state will force its religion.
Its the same as secular state can force non-religion. Look at the burkha/niqab ban in France.

EDIT: I am starting a thread about the question, why should immoral people change?

*opens a beer, adds a wedge of lime* It's Cinco de Mayo, amigos!

reply to post by wildtimes


If I'm going to hell for smoking, at least I'll never have to worry about losing my lighter.

reply to post by wildtimes

I had said my premise is that Religion does not create morality.

Well... if you consider the OT to be a history book, then the religion that spawned from the incarnation of Jesus created a higher bar for "morality"....

Though afterwards it took a turn for the worse...

Just in case anyone wants to read more of his posts regarding the subject in the discussion with me,
here is the thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just do a "posts in thread" from the pull-down under his avatar to read through them.

I hope he doesn't think I'm "cheating" - I just thought it might save him some time if his other musings were available while we wait for him to get here (I sent him a u2u that the party is awaiting the arrival of the host... )

via u2u, He says "I'm here, couldn't decide what to wear."

Just had to share.....sorry, log7....

reply to post by Witness123


i agree with what you said and what you hinted but din't say.

Originally posted by Hecate666
What are you on about OP?

We are humans and not programmable robots. What is immoral for one is quite acceptable to the other. I have a sneaky feeling you find certain stuff immoral that I would not, just a gut feeling...

i am on something that you may not agree to,
we are not programmable robots but we have a sense of right and wrong that rises above region and cultures.

reply to post by wildtimes

Does it work both ways, though? Some might think that "an eye for an eye" is justice using that same rule - "Well, you acted this way to me, so I'm going to act that way to you." In other words "act like a jerk, get treated like a jerk." I don't think it works properly in the negative that way.

yes, it doesn't work in negative way. Except while making criminal law, and the law should be there as a deterent.
If criminal law is made on forgiveness then its injustice to victims who got victimised due to lenient punishments which were incapable of scaring a potential criminal.

reply to post by logical7


So why do you believe a god is needed in order for us to know right from wrong? The Piraha tribe of the Amazon have no concept of god, yet they still know right from wrong.

reply to post by logical7

If criminal law is made on forgiveness then its injustice to victims who got victimised due to lenient punishments which were incapable of scaring a potential criminal.

Okay.....
so...you want stricter punishments? Under criminal (or civil) law?
I don't get the "if criminal law is made on forgiveness" part. All we have on Earth is innocents, criminals and laws. Oh, and books. And judicial punishment (people judging other people).


Who ever said that criminal law is made on "forgiveness", anyway?
I know you're getting caught up with the posts in the thread...but, still would like an answer.

Originally posted by sparrowstail
Many folks who want to make a moral change often find comfort in selfless service to others. I think this is one of the higher expressions of humankind; that and love, kindness, generosity, compassion and forgiveness of self and others.

yes, but selfless service doing people are not enough.
"for evil to take over its enough that good people do nothing"

in a philosophical sense evil is just absence of good.

It is very essential that a wrong is called as wrong and stopped by action or atleast words.

reply to post by logical7

yes, but selfless service doing people are not enough.
"for evil to take over its enough that good people do nothing"

How do you determine that "selfless service-doing people are not enough"??

They are the only ones doing anything to help just for the sake of helping. Because it's the right thing to do.
Whether or not they follow a certain "God" or "religion" or none at all - it's "enough"....
Why does FEAR need to be involved?
???????????

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I really don't think anything will motivate them. Immoral behavior has been around since Cain murdered Abel. We're humans who have been affected by the nature to sin and do evil things to one another for any variety of reasons.

i think fear motivates them to remain in check, if not fear of God then fear of moral people who will not tolerate immorality, ofcourse moral people should be a majority for that.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
The natural, immoral man cannot change for the better, unless God puts it into him to do so.

i too believe that.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by logical7

 

What will motivate immoral people to want to change towards better?
What can be a counter force to selfishness, greed, lust etc that works?

An immoral person who keeps getting things his way will see no reason to change. Immorality becomes a way of life. He will not take the time to self reflect and question his ways.

If he feels its rewarding to be selfishness and greedy and lustful... then he will continue to do so.

yes, you pointed a very important reason as to why it continues.

Immorality is rewarded by material gains rather than punished with some loss.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Actually, without knowing specifically what you mean by immorality, it's hard to answer your question. Wars are immoral to me. They cause damage, death and destruction. The fact that 1% of the people own 99% of the wealth in our country is immoral to me. That causes social wrongs and an economic crisis. Polluting the air is immoral to me. That causes environmental changes. Are these the moral actions and circumstances you're talking about? If not, can you be more specific about what immoral acts you're talking about?

i meant exactly what you said. However immorality is not limited to the above.
Its a long list. Exploitation, abuse etc
but you pointed the major things.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I really don't think anything will motivate them. Immoral behavior has been around since Cain murdered Abel. We're humans who have been affected by the nature to sin and do evil things to one another for any variety of reasons.

i think fear motivates them to remain in check, if not fear of God then fear of moral people who will not tolerate immorality, ofcourse moral people should be a majority for that.

Well, I was speaking on the macro-level. If you want to know what changes a person on the micro, or individual level then people need to abandon selfishness, abandon greed. People need to be motivated to serve others, to care more about their wellbeing and needs more than one's own. They need to have a desire to see their fellow man prosper and have a better life than they desire for themselves.