A Disturbing Essay on Islamic Scientific Development

reply to post by mideast

Dear mideast,

Thank you, I appreciate your willingness to explain things to me.

I agree with you completely when you say that there are some things science cannot know. Things that can only be dealt with through Philosophy, Theology, Study of the Holy Book, etc. How the Universe came into being will never be known with certainty. What happens to the Soul after death is something else which will remain a mystery.

Still, I think that the idea that scientific discoveries or thinking must not conflict with the Holy Writings would be unacceptable to many scientists.

Concerning the question of the "fruitful relationship." I am certain that if asked, many, if not most, Muslims would say "The West has done terrible things to our country and our honor. We must destroy them." I can understand that position, it makes sense.

But how do we ever get to a "fruitful relationship" when the hatred is so strong and ingrained? I don't see it for many years. Would it help if Science and Freedom were more encouraged under Islam?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Explanation: Uhmmm?

Concerning the question of the "fruitful relationship." I am certain that if asked, many, if not most, Muslims would say "The West has done terrible things to our country and our honor. We must destroy them." I can understand that position, it makes sense.

The West??? :shk:

Nope ... even the devil is sent by Allah.

Destroy them?

Nobody but Allah can personally destroy them ... there is the day of resurrection!

Personal Disclosure: If they say that .. then I am sure they are not true followers of Allah who abide by the 5 faiths and the 5 pillars.

The instant they, aka any religious person, are afraid and show any fear ... directly tells one that they have no real faith.

reply to post by charles1952


Science has have also held or tried to held it's self back with absolutism people thought Einstein was to radical for some at the time or just like how Einstein figure out quantum mechanics and spent the rest of his career to disprove it . Same with string theory it also faces the same ridicule from the community even with evidence piling up.

With the energy harnessing technologies I think it is safe to say the world spend a fraction on new sources of energy , than we do with what many companies make in profit from drilling in to the ground for oil . Instead of progressing there have been creating stagnation . Tesla had many great ideas that could of progressed this world with energy technologies but greed took care of that.

reply to post by charles1952

But how do we ever get to a "fruitful relationship" when the hatred is so strong and ingrained?

As soon as US is going to show some interest. I mean , look at recent events.

Do you think they are Muslims ?

Even if they are Muslims, they are the same people who US govt is helping in Syria.

Would it help if Science and Freedom were more encouraged under Islam?

They are encouraged under Islam , but the solution is not to make new sects and help minority groups by west.

Read this thread and study for your self how west helped Saudi family to take over Arabia and start Wahhabism

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by OmegaLogos

Dear OmegaLogos,

Thank you for bringing me to rethink my words. I believe I've made a mistake and I'm grateful you've pointed it out. I really can't say that most Muslims feel that "the Great Satan" must be destroyed or conquered. I also shouldn't have confused the West with the United States.

But there is still an unresolved question or two. Perhaps people who say those things are false Muslims. Are there enough of them, and are they "devoted" enough to cause real problems in the world? I suspect the answer is yes.

Second, if they are false Muslims, how are they to be detected and kept from harming others? I would think this task would fall first to the Islamic governments of their countries. I don't hear of significant efforts in that direction. I would be very said to learn that the false Muslims are allowed to prosper in order to achieve goals that the true Muslims might have in mind. (But I know very little about what those goals might be.)

The instant they, aka any religious person, are afraid and show any fear ... directly tells one that they have no real faith.

I realize that some will call suicide bombers false Muslims, but are they told that if they have real faith they will not be afraid?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by freedomSlave

Dear freedomSlave,

You have told me how religion holds back Science, and how Science holds itself back. I'm surprised we have any science left at all.

Do you think Science is handled differently under Islam than under other religions? If it is, do you think Islam is helping science or hindering it?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


I think science will always punch threw eventually .

Every Muslim I have met in Canada just want to be like us their countries are ran by religious extremist . Many have moved here to get away from that stuff . They want to have freedom and peace they want education and for their children . In the west they finally marked make up for women that contains no animal by products and they keep clearing the shelves with every shipment . To me they want to be like us but they have to do it on their own terms

They are in every work field as we do from cleaning a toilet to cutting edge science . We are free here they are not over there because of fanatic extremist are in power in many places there .

this would be a different thread if the west boro was running the western world . The article or essay left me with the impression of an bias study while failing to factor numerous things .

I find everyday people of the Islam faith I have met are the most genuine helpful people I have ever met . of all the religions out there Islam I actually do have the most respect for . I am just a white guy from a multicultural city .

ETA
Am I wrong mideast in my conclusion or am I sounding like an ass


also eta . no i dont think science would handled any different that under any religion

reply to post by freedomSlave


Muslims have many problems in their countries.

Some stay and try to build , some run away and try to mind their own business.

I think that those who stay and build are more useful people and more faithful to their believes.

Because in west they are not respected much and their are labeled. But they can act like none-muslims as they will and come back to Muslims and say "we are Muslims"

I don't generalize but I think that those who want Islam , should be in Muslims countries , practicing Islamic laws and building the society.

Brilliant thread and a very cool discussion, so far, haven't finished reading it yet. I was doing some reading about mecca the other night.

A question I wanted to ask a long time ago and didn't, might sound silly, but what 'way' do they rotate/walk/surge around their stone? clockwise or anti clockwise?

Like I said might be a silly question, but one I don't know the answer to...so thanks in advance.

Some people should first learn what is considered mainstream before giving credit to fringe theories or research. And that goes for the thread's subject but also for any other subject. I say that because some here have said some things that make me think that they are not well familiarized with the subject. I am not saying that mainstream is always right, no, but mainstream can give a starting point. Otherwise it's like someone willing to discover some new laws of physics without first learning about mainstream physics.

Concerning the subject of this thread : I rarely trust people who are absolutist in what they say, because nothing is all "bad" or all "good", and you still have to define good and bad form you cultural point of view.

Well, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that religion in general has shown itself to be a scientific and technology limiting factor in societies throughout the world and history.

Maybe some more than others, or maybe some more at different points in it's history
(there were times when Christianity was more powerful, and much more restrictive also).

What calls my attention is the assumed judgement here, that scientific and technological progress is always "good",and any influence which slows or hinders it is "bad".

A truly American value and ambition, as I've found that even in some other non-Muslim cultures, it is considered valuable to not rush forward, but to cling to some tradition, to value past and elders, and remain distrusting of change to an extent.
(which begs the question of whether the agenda here is actually propaganda of the conflict between the US and Islam.....)


I'd like to look closer, zooming in on this assumption made... Are the most technologically advanced societies filled with happier people? Perhaps we need to establish what we mean by happy. Some might call it physical comfort, some might call it an inner emotional fulfillment. Some might be physically comfortable, and trying to stuff an inner emptiness that is emotional based consumption, instead of physical need.

I am not so sure anymore that we are correct in the assumption. When I see people living in squalor in third world countries, and yet they grin, they laugh, they gather together and sing and support each other.

I think of the time we had a major catastrophy where I live- a huge flood, which destroyed homes around us and isolated us from the rest of the world and any emergency aid, and the most amazingly pleasurable way we all helped each other- people I didn't know, who had been living next to me, I was bringing into my home, or shoveling mud with. That day I realized the deep draw humans have to the Doom porn- a part of us knows that away from the comfort of modern scoiety we find our human connections again, and they are essential to our happiness.


I used to take part in all female get togethers at night, on full moons, when mostly Muslim women of all ages would come, grandmothers, mothers, little girls.... we'd all bring foods, and we would eat and dance all night. That was my first glance at the interesting life that occurs under that repression..... a bonding between women that I have NEVER seen in western women! It was awesome.

Through the years, I have come to see the world as a constant friction/creativity emerging from opposing forces, and that which we might call "obstacle", "challenge", "problem" or just plain "bad" is often instead a grounding force, an anchoring, a distillation process, that has it's necessity and value as well as that which is it's opposite.

Just my opinion. Islam might be a religion which slows technological progress, just as many other religons are.
But people do not turn to religions for that kind of fulfilment anyway.

Originally posted by Bybyots
I think that it is best not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Personally, I am grateful to elements of Muslim cultures from throughout history. I am lately especially grateful that they held on to the Plato long enough for the western dark age to pass.

I also think that it has to do with where a culture places its emphasis, and the things that are often emphasized in Islam of Muslim culture are shockingly not what we emphasize.

I wish that we would get out of their hair and just let them 'make business' and express themselves any way that they please, but, "if wishes were fishes", and all.

So, what's with the list, Charles?

edit on 20-4-2013 by Bybyots because:

I think we overcook this notion that Europe at a certain time was "dark"< while the Islamic world was a beacon of light- far from that straightforward

reply to post by freedomSlave


Enslave a man with steel chains, and he will fight to the death to free himself.

Enslave a man with religion, and he will fight to the death to enslave you with him.

Religion.... it's for suckers.

reply to post by mideast


So.. what is the point of citing riddles?

It's like reading the instruction pamphlet to the VCR. When it is written in Chinese-English.

Your gods are crazy, and cannot write in coherent language so that their words cannot be used to cause war.

Your gods are sadists. your gods deprive humans of life itself.

Originally posted by Bybyots
Live and let live, I say.

If only now we could get religious people to agree. This, in the crux of it, is the real problem.

Originally posted by winofiend

Originally posted by Bybyots
Live and let live, I say.

If only now we could get religious people to agree. This, in the crux of it, is the real problem.

what, all several billion of em?

reply to post by charles1952


Why does Muslim culture have to achieve anything by our standards.. Does it make them something less than us if they dont, I saw a thread up on Africa recently in which the OP stated that Africa has done nothing for the world. I guess if you look at the world through our eyes you can judge most other cultures do not live up to our mark. What have the aborigines for example done for western science.

Maybe it would put it in prospective if you turn the question around. What has the Western world done for the Muslims. Well right now we are using our scientific achievements to bomb half the middle east back into the stone age...

reply to post by charles1952


While I believe religion today is for non-intellectuals, I disagree with this article. I would understand this way of thinking if we were talking about radical Islam, but you can say the same for radical christianity. I mean how much does the catholic church have possession of regarding art, knowledge, history. How much did the crusades burn, and destroy from history. Regarding your title, if it were to read "A Disturbing Essay on Religious Scientific Development" I would understand, agree, and it should be obvious to all. Unless this article is aimed to target Islam to make it look bad, why not just condemn the root of all human advancement, religious dogma. Knowing scientifically how the universe expanded, then accreted into form, or knowing genetically we didn’t evolve from one man and one woman, or understanding the weather is dictated predominantly by Sol, why in 2013 do people still believe in these religious fallacies. Come to think of it, its sheer stupidity (not ignorance) that is destroying society. We are no longer tribes and small kingdoms of societies, we are a globally connected society now, and unfortunately the majority of the people on earth have no desire to wake up, use critical thought, logic, or contribute to mankind. Mass amounts of genetically inferior intellect are now pulling down our global society with it. Regardless of any of my previous statements, you all do know that there are muslims who have contributed to society and science right? I mean not all muslims are predisposed to ruin scientific development. With a caveat, I loathe all religion, but I have read the Koran, and it does not read how it is depicted in the media, as all members are barbaric in nature, with a desire of a 'physical jihad'. If the western world were to start terrorizing states dominated by other religions, I’m quite sure they would turn into so-called 'terrorists' as well. So why don’t we just start thinking logically and break the damn cycle.

reply to post by charles1952

Keeping Plato is a wonderful thing. I'd like some help though, I thought the texts were preserved in monasteries by the Church. Please, fill me in on my history.

It is true that the Church preserved the some teachings of ancient Greece in the medieval period - although it was mainly Aristotle rather than Plato. (Plato was more a Renaissance rediscovery by humanists such as Erasmus, Thomas More etc). However, a significant amount this ancient learning was received by scholastics via Islamic translations and interpretations.

If you read Thomas Aquinas you will see him mention ‘the philosopher’ (always Aristotle not Plato) and ‘the commentator” respectfully and often. The commentator is Ibn Sina (latinised to Avicenna), an Islamic scholar famous both for his writings on philosophy and theology (they weren’t really separate) and also medicine. Much of this was sourced from ancient Greece and then further developed and elaborated - in particular Aristotle, Galen and Hippocrates with some Plato, although indirectly.

It may seem strange, but if you read Aquinas and then you read Avicenna you will find they have a great deal in common, even around theological questions about the nature of God. Thomas Aquinas, expands and modifies ideas that are clearly informed by those developed by Avicenna, a Muslim, who in turn built on Aristotle, a pagan. Christendom and Islam both built on knowledge from the past and from other cultures - Islam is hardly unique in this.

In this day and age everyone that is non muslim will try to throw some sort of bs story and try to draw people away from it, which will never ever happen, why are people so threatened by Islam? This is what makes it truly the right religion, because the world is against us. Allah akbar!

Peace.

p.s - This is not "Disturbing" at all, it's just silly