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I realize this is popular among nondenominational Christianity but is not based on the Bible but on the writings of the Reformers like Luther and Calvin.
a gift declaration of righteousness to those who could never gain that declaration through performance.
No, since the idea of being saved, in the New Testament is based on a political concept of what being "saved" meant. It is safety that for example, a city or region would have as a result of someone like let's say an Emperor puts you under his protection, committing resources, military or otherwise, to insure the health and well being of the inhabitants.
Does that mean that once we are saved, we can just go out and do anything we want to do; live anyway we want to live and still be saved?
Neither.
Are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because of their lack of sin, or are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because he has joined them to his son?
First of all, you have yet to establish that the Bible ever talks about God giving anyone "righteousness".
God is not giving out his righteousness as a reward to those who are sorry for the past, and who promise to do their best in the future.
Originally posted by greatfriendbadfoe
so if everything is predestined, then there are some unfortunate individuals who will, because they were not predestined to get on the jesus wagon, end up having to spend eternity in hell. yep, that sounds about right. There is this all powerful, all knowing, all controling thing that will cause the eternal suffering of many beings. the more people try to show how great this concept of a great and powerful and gracious being, the more they show it to be a cold hearted, non caring bully
Originally posted by Cuervo
Originally posted by greatfriendbadfoe
so if everything is predestined, then there are some unfortunate individuals who will, because they were not predestined to get on the jesus wagon, end up having to spend eternity in hell. yep, that sounds about right. There is this all powerful, all knowing, all controling thing that will cause the eternal suffering of many beings. the more people try to show how great this concept of a great and powerful and gracious being, the more they show it to be a cold hearted, non caring bully
You can blame Paul for most of that. I've noticed that, if you throw out everything Paul wrote, the New Testament is actually pretty inclusive. Otherwise, you have to acknowledge that the Christian god will send every remote tribesman to hell just for being out of contact with Christians.
I wouldn't be surprised if Christian scholars someday work out that Paul was the anti-Christ.
Originally posted by greatfriendbadfoe
Originally posted by Cuervo
Originally posted by greatfriendbadfoe
so if everything is predestined, then there are some unfortunate individuals who will, because they were not predestined to get on the jesus wagon, end up having to spend eternity in hell. yep, that sounds about right. There is this all powerful, all knowing, all controling thing that will cause the eternal suffering of many beings. the more people try to show how great this concept of a great and powerful and gracious being, the more they show it to be a cold hearted, non caring bully
You can blame Paul for most of that. I've noticed that, if you throw out everything Paul wrote, the New Testament is actually pretty inclusive. Otherwise, you have to acknowledge that the Christian god will send every remote tribesman to hell just for being out of contact with Christians.
I wouldn't be surprised if Christian scholars someday work out that Paul was the anti-Christ.
And there inlies the problem. You now say throw out part of the bible because it doesn't fit your concept. Why not then be able to add some of the nostic writings (if that is the right term) and what will be the next bit that you disagree wih and therefore be thrown out?
Paul was an Apostle, by his own account.
I would say that a man who never met Jesus nor anybody who knew Jesus that decided to write 12 . . .
Originally posted by newnature
We cannot earn salvation, and we can never lose salvation, because salvation is based not upon what we do, or promise to do, but upon what Christ has already done for us! What an astounding truth to ponder and really come to understand; a gift declaration of righteousness to those who could never gain that declaration through performance. Does that mean that once we are saved, we can just go out and do anything we want to do; live anyway we want to live and still be saved? Self-sanctification is sitting at the core in a negative way in the mindset of the person who is posing that question. Paul proves that question to be just the opposite.
Grace is a much greater motivator. It is the love of God that constrains us, not fear that God is going to strike us dead, or allow us to be a part of the second death if we perform what we should not be performing, or do not measure up through our performance. Are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because of their lack of sin, or are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because he has joined them to his son? God has a purpose for those who believe, by placing the believer into his son. God did not predestinate us to believe, he predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his son, because he knew who would believe. We must understand that God has predetermined to glorify us. In fact, God has predestined us to that glorification. To predestinate simply means to decide and decree in advance the destiny of something.
Should we just go out and sin all the more now that we know that God’s grace is given to us as a gift simply when we believe his son died for our sins, and put those sins off the table of God’s justice. The natural man has his mind tuned in only to the channel of his own human perspective; satisfying the lust of his flesh; the lust of his eyes; and the pride of life. If something is not logical to the natural man’s way of thinking, he refuses to believe it, whether God said it or not, he wants to remain in his comfort zone. God is not giving out his righteousness as a reward to those who are sorry for the past, and who promise to do their best in the future. At the point of our belief in what Christ accomplished where our sins are concerned, we are as closely associated with Christ as anyone could be, we are joined to him. What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person, therefore what is Christ’s is ours! It is a gift, a declaration of rightness with God, and this comes totally apart from that unrighteous person’s production.
Originally posted by Wonders
Originally posted by newnature
We cannot earn salvation, and we can never lose salvation, because salvation is based not upon what we do, or promise to do, but upon what Christ has already done for us! What an astounding truth to ponder and really come to understand; a gift declaration of righteousness to those who could never gain that declaration through performance. Does that mean that once we are saved, we can just go out and do anything we want to do; live anyway we want to live and still be saved? Self-sanctification is sitting at the core in a negative way in the mindset of the person who is posing that question. Paul proves that question to be just the opposite.
Grace is a much greater motivator. It is the love of God that constrains us, not fear that God is going to strike us dead, or allow us to be a part of the second death if we perform what we should not be performing, or do not measure up through our performance. Are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because of their lack of sin, or are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because he has joined them to his son? God has a purpose for those who believe, by placing the believer into his son. God did not predestinate us to believe, he predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his son, because he knew who would believe. We must understand that God has predetermined to glorify us. In fact, God has predestined us to that glorification. To predestinate simply means to decide and decree in advance the destiny of something.
Should we just go out and sin all the more now that we know that God’s grace is given to us as a gift simply when we believe his son died for our sins, and put those sins off the table of God’s justice. The natural man has his mind tuned in only to the channel of his own human perspective; satisfying the lust of his flesh; the lust of his eyes; and the pride of life. If something is not logical to the natural man’s way of thinking, he refuses to believe it, whether God said it or not, he wants to remain in his comfort zone. God is not giving out his righteousness as a reward to those who are sorry for the past, and who promise to do their best in the future. At the point of our belief in what Christ accomplished where our sins are concerned, we are as closely associated with Christ as anyone could be, we are joined to him. What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person, therefore what is Christ’s is ours! It is a gift, a declaration of rightness with God, and this comes totally apart from that unrighteous person’s production.
I quoted your post because I really do have quite a bit I'd like to say, BUT my hope for you and everyone who thinks like you is very thin indeed. So, I've decided to share this to the readers:
READ THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELVES!!! DON'T PUT YOUR TRUST IN KOOKS LIKE THIS NEWNATURE IMPOSTOR. Good day, to all those who actually do care about the truth.
Edit to add: Okay, so maybe "go to the source" wasn't enough for some of you folks, so, for those who are less motivated to discern the truth for themselves, I shall help a little.
You know what, nevermind, if you can't be bothered to read the bible for yourself then I suggest you don't bother with me either. Willfull ignorance is the only way that people in this day and age could be so blind and deaf.edit on 10/01/11 by Wonders because: I am grateful to some of you for speaking the truth about this horrible abberation that calls it'self Christianity.
DON'T PUT YOUR TRUST IN KOOKS LIKE THIS . . .
Originally posted by Wonders
I quoted your post because I really do have quite a bit I'd like to say, BUT my hope for you and everyone who thinks like you is very thin indeed. So, I've decided to share this to the readers:
READ THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELVES!!! DON'T PUT YOUR TRUST IN KOOKS LIKE THIS NEWNATURE IMPOSTOR. Good day, to all those who actually do care about the truth.
Edit to add: Okay, so maybe "go to the source" wasn't enough for some of you folks, so, for those who are less motivated to discern the truth for themselves, I shall help a little.
You know what, nevermind, if you can't be bothered to read the bible for yourself then I suggest you don't bother with me either. Willfull ignorance is the only way that people in this day and age could be so blind and deaf.edit on 10/01/11 by Wonders because: I am grateful to some of you for speaking the truth about this horrible abberation that calls it'self Christianity.
if you throw out everything Paul wrote, the New Testament is actually pretty inclusive.
Don't be (sorry).
I'm sorry for what I wrote, I would be willing to share scripture with anyone willing to listen, please ask, and if I don't know the answer, we can learn together. God loves us.