Evidence of Ancient Advanced Civilizations...Would We Find It?

reply to post by stormcell


The antiythera mechanism is only a couple thousand years old and has already decomposed to a great extent. Without all those statues around the antikythera mechanism it likely would have never been discovered as well.. and the large statues were decomposing as well. This was also a very calm area as well because it essentially a protected inlet.

I agree that things of that age and in a protected environment could last a few thousand years... but any longer than that and with catastrophes after words I don't see it being discovered unless it is megalithic stone and at a high elevation.

The antikythera mechanism is proof positive that an advanced civilization likely has been kept from the public AND it shows that history can be lost.. It was lost for thousands of years! And we still don't know the full story.

To me it shows how people who are skeptics will NEVER change their minds when they ignore the significance of the Antihythera mechanism...

Maybe not. If they were ecologically conscious like us, they would have had recycling: so no metal and plastic to find. If they lived in harmony with nature, they might not have large cities like us. They might have had Tesla's wireless electricity method, so no power lines to find. If they had antigravity craft, there might not be roads to find. If they went digital like us, no books, magazines, or photos' to find. The more advanced we become, the more our footprint in history can disappear!

Originally posted by smyleegrl
Can you explain why you find the show Life After People disingenuous?

Because it's Extreme Case Archaeology (pseudoarchaeology) and assumes everything will fall apart at some rate that they've calculated.

So let me explain better: materials decay at different rates depending on where they end up. You get very slow loss of information if they're in a desert (for instance) and are buried (example: dinosaur eggs. We have some that are over 80 million years old, and an egg is a pretty fragile thing.) Cities and towns do get buried, and they decay at much different rates.... Pompeii, for instance, has much of its material still intact. If we hadn't dug it up, it would be there, perfectly preserved, a million years from now.

Materials in landfills will degrade at different rates depending on the burial technique.

But comparative forensics doesn't make for a dramatic and exciting show that plays into the modern themes of apocalyptic decay of civilization. Drama makes for ratings, so it's easy (and lazy) to assume a decay that leads to a Mad Max scenery or the end of the "Planet of the Apes" kind of scenery.

Your argument about civilizations forming over time makes sense. I wonder, though, if in the past a civilization could have made it to stage 4, abandoned Earth...and the whole process started over again.

But they didn't just fall out of the trees (or crawl out of the ocean) in full-blown stage 4 technology. In order to have electricity, for instance, you have to have good smelting processes (relatively pure wire) and you have to be able to make wire, braid or twist wire, make insulation, and then make all the pieces that you need for electricity (which requires a lot of power, whether water power or some other kind of power.) Things that provide that power have to be able to withstand more pressure, tension, and/or torque than wood and reeds and grass and fur (and many rocks.) That requires learning to make chemical compounds, which requires precise measurement, and industrial scale production methods. Those things require a lot of food, a large work force, use of resources which are probably not local, transportation of the resources, and large bunches of people living near each other. And THAT requires some sort of food supply, medical system, childcare system (parents or other) which means a high population density which means a need for sewer systems and so forth.

And so on and so forth back through time. Every new technology requires some older tech to bring it about. We can't build transistors with stone knives and bearskins.

reply to post by TheKeyMaster

To me it shows how people who are skeptics will NEVER change their minds

To change ones mind is essentially to give up who one once was. We all base our beliefs off of the information that is provided to us at the time. It is up to us, to you, to provide the evidence to sway them to one side or another.

I for one feel it's highly likely that advanced society's have come and gone before us...

[story]
A cataclysm sets in, a meteor strikes, sea levels rise. Small pockets of humanity band together to survive. Our only thoughts are of immediate survival. We have to teach each other to hunt again, to make clothes, to live off the land. No one is trying to charge up their cell phone, they're trying to make sure the children survive. After a year has gone by, your not teaching 12 year olds algebra your teaching them to make spears and bows...

A generation or two later and your finally getting to a point of sustaining a localized group with hunting and farming. Who is left that knows how to work metal and harvest ore? Everything must be re-learned from day one, when Prometheus gives fire to Man. Meanwhile, everything we knew or had is wiped away; earthquakes, volcanoes, an ice age(?) grinds our previous civilization back to dust.

Slowly the human race starts to rise again. Cities grow, trade increases between different nations. Eventually, legends are traveled between lands. Legends of a far away land or a better time. Where people lived in harmony and ease. A time when flying steeds would fly people across the land in moments or silver chariots could cross great leagues of distance in short time. The tales of new heroes would be sung at campfire. The heroes who survived the catastrophe and taught their grand fathers', grand father how to survive. Tales will arise from our collective subconcious, tales of a man greater than the rest, a man that could travel to any part of the world in seconds, who had a greater strength than all other men combined,who could not be harmed, and could shoot fire from his eyes. And the first Gods will be born... [/story]

its only a matter of time

Originally posted by Hazon
reply to post by TheKeyMaster

 

To me it shows how people who are skeptics will NEVER change their minds

To change ones mind is essentially to give up who one once was. We all base our beliefs off of the information that is provided to us at the time. It is up to us, to you, to provide the evidence to sway them to one side or another.

Great post... I agree with you about how civilizations could be lost.

I see what you are saying about people being entrenched in their ideas... but I think the problem comes from people being too set though... it's very common in our society for people to be set in their views for some reason. It doesn't have to be this way and shouldn't be this way. I think it's by design... especially with our schooling systems. I think we are taught to think this way because they don't want us to think.

I have always been the opposite... and paid dearly for it going through the school system. The funny thing is though as open minded as I am there are many things even I was convinced were impossible.. but I couldn't imagine how immense the entire control structure was.

reply to post by smyleegrl


Most of the humanity does not care about the past. I live where civilization has existed for a very long time. Ancient constructions and artifacts are everywhere. However Government does not care much beyond lip service. Poor people dig up ancient walls for bricks and stones to construct their houses. Gold and silver unearthed is melted down for metal rather than getting into museums.

If current civilization is totally destroyed and a new one tales its place, I doubt that people will know much about us a million years from now.

History is not an exact science. People change historical records as per their political and religious beliefs. Finding true history is not easy.

reply to post by GargIndia


Exactly.. we can't even find truth in our own era... how can we figure out what was going on in other periods? Life is very strange.

reply to post by TheKeyMaster


Determining age of artifacts is also a serious challenge.

The artifacts that survive the longest time are metal objects made from precious metals like gold.

However it is impossible to determine if a gold coin is made 5000 years before or a billion years.

Please refer to an interesting website: hallofthegods.org...

Bodies of animals and plants do not live long after death - bodies decompose into chemicals and gases and disappear within decades. Fossilization is a rare event. Getting history primarily from fossils for a planet that is billions of years old is a futile exercise.

We read in Ramayan of devices like radar, guns, aeroplanes etc. Buildings in Ayodhya are described as seven storeys tall. The Ayodhya city is described as a square city 64 km by 24 km with wide roads, a number of fortified palaces, gardens etc. The sages of India has put the time of Ramayan 18.1 million years before today. So somebody wrote a Sanskrit book 18.1 million years ago about a very advanced civilization. If you consider that, you realize what you know about history of this planet.

I'll start by saying I haven't read all the replies in this post, so if this has been said; Apologies in advance;

But, what about "space junk"? Objects left on the Moon, or indeed, Mars.

If indeed "past civilisations" were as advanced as us now, or even moreso; Would there not be traces still in Space?

.... or is there! :-)

Originally posted by CrikeyMate
I'll start by saying I haven't read all the replies in this post, so if this has been said; Apologies in advance;

But, what about "space junk"? Objects left on the Moon, or indeed, Mars.

If indeed "past civilisations" were as advanced as us now, or even moreso; Would there not be traces still in Space?

.... or is there! :-)

Excellent question -- but there's only a very tiny zone where it would be in stable orbit... and then it's still likely to be affected by space weather. If it gets pushed away even a little bit, it'll start drifting away (like the Moon, which is drifting away from Earth very slightly and will someday be out of our gravitational field) or will hit the upper atmosphere and fall to Earth.

reply to post by CrikeyMate


Powerful people have always tried to destroy evidence that does not fit their belief systems.

Why should be we so hopeful that we shall be told the truth?

Originally posted by Byrd

And so on and so forth back through time. Every new technology requires some older tech to bring it about. We can't build transistors with stone knives and bearskins.

But Mr. Spock did it!



Just kidding. Agree with your post fully, but could not resist the Spock comment!

The Department of energy builds warning tablets out of Granite to designate burial sites containing radioactive waste, granite will last thousands - tens of thousand of years. Granite is highly stable material, which is why inspection plates are made of Granite as well. Finding signs of ancient technology will be easier to find in stone, as its is readily available. But, there are many signs if we know what to look for.

We know so little of Germanic cultures that lived alongside the Roman empire, because Germans built their cities out of wood and did not record their history, while Rome built and recorded theirs in stone. We are learning more about these Germanic people, which were quite sophisticated. The same with culture we call Vikings, who led extraordinary lives and mastered many technologies.
Moche indians in Peru utilized highly advanced principals of Hydrodynamics that modern society would not rediscover for another 3,000 years, while the people that built Machu Pichu utilize engineering and construction technology we are adapting in construction today. The real wonder of Machu Pichu exists in the subterranean engineering that extends deep underground, creating a stable foundation for the city above.

The reason stone blocks are odd sizes that interlock together in many ancient sites is they will last longer. If the same size stones are used, they will tend to erode and weather faster, and far less resistant to earthquakes. Using interlocking dis-similar sizes creates a far stronger foundation that lasts many thousands of years even in strong quake zones. This method of engineering is now starting to filter to construction projects.

There are many signs of ancient advanced civilizations in our past, we just need to know what to look for. Its not always in the physical structure, but the engineering and math required to build them.

reply to post by Byrd


Thank you for explaining.

This makes sense to me.

A big thank you to everyone who participated in this thread. You clarified many things I was unsure of, and I really enjoyed reading the different perspectives. I'll continue to keep an open mind to the possibility of ancient advanced civilizations, but I now see the logical problems inherent in such a theory, and have a better idea of what to look for in the future.

Thanks again, everyone.

smylee

I certainly believe that there is evidence supporting the theory that there indeed have been a, or several advanced and/or sophisticated civilizations here on Earth long before the rise of our current one.
Perhaps, if one bear an open mind about the subject; there may even be evidence supporting the idea that we may have been visited by non-terrestrial intelligences in the past, but, that is pure speculation until further testing have been performed on the various objects involved in this area.

Considering that our standard paradigm includes that Mankind, in this shape and form that we currently embody appeared about 200,000 years ago and that we have barely changed, if at all, since then; it is worth considering if previous establishments of societies may have held a more sound and reasonable approach to life and science than we do today.
For example; let us imagine that we were to create a civilization, that would prosper in peace and longevity, based upon the knowledge that we have available today.
Which material would we use to construct our buildings? Metall erode, glass shatter and plastic decay over the course of time, and the latter definitely has an impact on the ecological system in the long-run, and it is negative, so it should be avoided if possible.
Stone would be a good alternative, particularly granite which is a very durable material and its proportions remain the same throughout time.
I haven't done much research into limestone yet, but it commonly consists of calcite, which appear to have some rather interesting properties to it and I would guess that the ancients used limestone specifically for one, or various reasons in construction, which we may or may not have figured out yet.

If we were to create a civilization with ecology in mind, a good idea would also be to base our nutritional intake on vegetable foods, such as vegetables, fruit, nuts, berries and herbs which can provide all the nutrition that the human body needs in order to function properly.
In other words; one could question whether or not we are actually more intelligent in our approach to life now than the ancients were in regards to this point specifically.
If I am not mistaken, it wasn't until about 6,000 years ago that the first domisticated animals and genetically "altetered" plants appeared and we incorporated them into our way of life. Perhaps, if there existed a more advanced and sophisticated civilization before that, they had already realized that the Earth provides all the nutrition we need and have been from the very beginning.
Agriculture does not only include grains.

This is becoming a wall of text. I will try to keep this short.

If one is interested in such topics as ancient, perhaps lost civilizations, I would recommend that one do some research, specifically surrounding the myths, legends and recorded history of the following sites:

• The Giza Plateau, Egypt
• Puma Punku, Bolivia
• Tiahuanaco, Bolivia
• Machu Piccu, Peru
• Sacsayhuamán, Peru
• Angkor Wat, Cambodia
• Chichen Itza, Mexico
• Teotihuacán, Mexico
• Göbekli Tepe, Turkey
• Hampi, India
• Khajuraho, India
• City of Petra, Jordan
• Easter Island
• Athens, Greece
• Rome, Italy
• Tikal, Guatemala
• Copan, Honduras
• Tazumal, El Salvador
• Xunantunich, Belize
• Lost continent of Lemuria
• Lost continent of Atlantis

---

In short; yes, I firmly believe that people would find certain remains of our civilization, and previous ones just as we have, if our world would face the end of its time.
Perhaps not skyscrapers, cars and houses, depending on how much time would have gone by, but certainly stone monuments at least. If they were not swallowed by the sea that is.

Also, in regards to what history and knowledge of ours that they would have potentially discovered depends completely on how we choose to preserve it now and in the future.
Books will be destroyed and buried by the sands of time, computers, cellphones and other devices cannot reveal anything unless they are intact upon discovery and there is a power source, and oral traditions suffer the effects of the "whisper game" but may remain partially or mostly correct if handled carefully and without any selfish agendas from power greedy individuals interfering along the way.

So, my answer is; yes, remains of our civilization could survive and be uncovered and discovered after thousands, perhaps even millions of years, almost regardless of what catastrophe we would face.

Good thread, as always! S+F!

Originally posted by GargIndia
However it is impossible to determine if a gold coin is made 5000 years before or a billion years.

Not if it has Nebuchadnezzar's name on it it's not.

Originally posted by GargIndiaPlease refer to an interesting website: hallofthegods.org...

From your site:

Found in California, a rock was cracked open in search of fossils. But instead of a fossil, out fell a very strange object. The rock came from a formation that had been dated at around half a million years old. In the picture below on the right is an x-ray of the object. It is composed of a ceramic material and metal. In some respects it resembles a modern spark plug.

That's because it is, in fact a spark plug. A "Champion" brand sparkplug. It was identified as such a decade ago. It was encased in a concretion that formed from the rusting metal in it:

An investigation carried out by Pierre Stromberg and Paul Heinrich, with the help of members of the Spark Plug Collectors of America, suggested that the artifact is a 1920s Champion spark plug. Chad Windham, President of the Spark Plug Collectors of America, identified the Coso artifact as a 1920s-era Champion spark plug, which was widely used in the Ford Model T and Model A engines. Other spark plug collectors concurred with his assessment.[1]

Stromberg and Heinrich's report[1] indicates the spark plug became encased in a concretion composed of iron derived from the rusting spark plug. It is typical of iron and steel artifacts to rapidly form iron oxide concretions around them as they rust in the ground.[4]

Wiki
Next:

Thousands of spiral, screw-like objects have been unearthed over the past 20 years by gold miners in the Ural Mountains in Russia. These metal items have been found at depths from 3 to 40 feet. The layer which contains the spiral shaped objects consists of gravel deposits which have been dated at up to 100,000 years of age. These are obviously manmade objects manufactured to a high degree of sophistication.

Found in beds of river gravel, just dowenstream from an industrial site.
Depth of an object in loose gravel in and beside a river is no way to judge age.

Next:

small steel cube was found in a block of coal in Austria in 1885. ... in 1891, a woman in Illinois reportedly discovered a gold chain in a chunk of coal. An iron pot was found in coal in Oklahoma in 1912...

More objects that are claimed to have been in coal, that are no longer even partially encased in coal, and that have no coal on them.
Just words, IOW.

Next:

An iron nail was found in rock in a Peruvian mine by Spanish conquistadores (in 1572). An iron nail was discovered in a Cretaceous block of stone from the Mesozoic era (mid-1800s). A gold thread was found in stone in England (in 1844). An iron nail was found in quartz in California (in 1851). A silver vessel was extracted from solid rock in Massachusetts (in 1851). An intricately carved and inlaid metal bowl was found in a piece of stone (in 1852).

In June 1851 Scientific American reprinted a report from the Boston Transcript about a metallic vase, found in two parts, that was dynamited out of solid rock, about 15 feet below the surface in Dorchester, Massachusetts. The bell-shaped vase, made from a zinc and silver alloy, was 6 inches high. On the sides were figures of flowers in bouquet arrangements, inlaid with pure silver. The estimated age of the rock out of which it came was 100,000 years.

Same as the coal, only rock. And we don't even have the artifacts.

Just more words, again.

Next:

In 1869, in the December 17 issue of The Los Angeles News it was reported that a smooth slate wall covered with strange alphabetic writing had been discovered in a coalmine. The letters were raised and well defined. When chiselled away, the coal that had covered the wall bore their distinct impression, which confirmed that the wall dated to a time when the coal was formed.

More words. Where's the "wall?"

You should check out Rockwall, Texas, where an underground "wall" runs for a mile or two (Or more - I can't remember.)
It's a natural formation.

Conclusion:

With the destruction of the ancient libraries of Alexandria and China, the only remaining records of the very ancient past are to be found in India and Tibet.

Not even true. There are libraries all around the Middle East that are older than the one that was in Alexandria that were found with recoverable texts. Check out this list:
link

There's good reason to be skeptical when thousands of websites like the one you mentioned simply ignore what is known to be true and pretend that the world is something it's not.

Harte

reply to post by TheKeyMaster

Without all those statues around the antikythera mechanism it likely would have never been discovered

What statues? The Antikythera Mechanism was found in a shipwreck. It is in such a poor state of preservation because it's been under water, rusting and filling up with drifting gunk.

The antikythera mechanism is proof positive that an advanced civilization likely has been kept from the public.

It's a piece of clockwork, for heaven's sake. And it's less than two thousand years old.

To me it shows how people who are skeptics will NEVER change their minds when they ignore the significance of the Antihythera mechanism.

I think you've got that backwards. The people you call sceptics base their opinions on the best available facts, so if the facts change they are obliged, however unwillingly, to change their opinions. It's the wannabelievers, the eager swallowers of tall stories mostly dreamed up to increase media revenues, who never change their minds. For them, the truth is always 'out there'—in more ways than one.

reply to post by Astyanax


The Antiythera mechanism was on a ship loaded with statues when it sank. They are on display with the mechanism in a museum.

If not for the statues the diver likely would have never discovered the wreck.

I mm not saying the Antikythera mechanism was held by an advanced civilization.. but the mechanism couldn't have been built without occult knowledge FROM that civilization and it wouldn't have been kept secret if not for knowledge being withheld.

And you can always say "that's just a clock" about any kind of technology that has become outdated. In the future people will say "antigravity is just electrogravitics.. DUH..."

reply to post by TheKeyMaster

There were statues in the wreck—fine, I didn't know that. The explanation for the ruinous state of the mechanism remains the same nonetheless, and tells us nothing about artefacts preserved in other ways.

but the mechanism couldn't have been built without occult knowledge FROM that civilization and it wouldn't have been kept secret if not for knowledge being withheld.

A Renaissance jeweller could have built the thing. It requires no machine tools, no advanced processes, no complicated mathematics. What kind of 'occult knowledge' are you thinking of?

And you can always say "that's just a clock" about any kind of technology that has become outdated. In the future people will say "antigravity is just electrogravitics.. DUH..."

I didn't say a clock, I said clockwork. And it isn't even that really; just a bunch of wheels and cogs without proper gears or an escapement—you have to turn the damn' thing by hand.

I like your sauce, telling people who use their brains that their minds are closed to new ideas. You want to believe in Twilight Zone fables, so you cling to the nonsense that the Antikythera Mechanism is some piece of magically advanced technology. No matter how many times the facts are explained, you will cling to this fiction because you have identified with it. These fantasies belong to the Victorian era. Wake up and stop being so gullible.