What is the Christian take on self defense, war, civil war, fighting in general?

This is an area I'm not too familiar in so I wanted to get a few opinions on the Christian view in terms of fighting.

Let's the U.S. is in a civil War where it's the citizens against Big Bro. Or a foreign invasion of some sort. Do you fight? Do you turn the other cheek as Jesus taught?

What if your brothers/sisters, friends are being killed, tortured, etc. DO you still turn the other cheek?

Where's the fine line between "Doing" something about it, and "Letting it Go"?

reply to post by dominicus


I think it's honorable to fight evil and tyranny, and/or to protect the weak.

reply to post by dominicus

What if your brothers/sisters, friends are being killed, tortured, etc. DO you still turn the other cheek?

Well now, Jesus said to turn the other cheek.

I believe we are all well aware that we are all sinners, too. I would probably help the person being wronged, even if it meant that I was sinning.

As far as turning the other cheek goes, I don't remember a story in the Bible where Jesus watched a child being killed and said, 'Good, good. Do me next.' know what I mean?

reply to post by dominicus

Where's the fine line between "Doing" something about it, and "Letting it Go"?

The ultimate example is probably the execution of Christ. They did every sort of thing to him and he forgave them.

He submitted and in the end carried away from that experience that he did not become like them.

reply to post by butcherguy

As far as turning the other cheek goes, I don't remember a story in the Bible where Jesus watched a child being killed and said, 'Good, good. Do me next.' know what I mean?

He never killed anyone either.


Saving a life is different from taking a life.

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by butcherguy

 

As far as turning the other cheek goes, I don't remember a story in the Bible where Jesus watched a child being killed and said, 'Good, good. Do me next.' know what I mean?

He never killed anyone either.


Saving a life is different from taking a life.

With all due respect I took life to save lives
Does that make me a sinner ?

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by butcherguy

 

As far as turning the other cheek goes, I don't remember a story in the Bible where Jesus watched a child being killed and said, 'Good, good. Do me next.' know what I mean?

He never killed anyone either.


Saving a life is different from taking a life.

Depends on how much of the Bible you read:

7 ¶ Another time Jesus went forth into the street, and a boy running by, rushed upon his shoulder;
8 At which Jesus being angry, said to him, thou shalt go no farther.
9 And he instantly fell down dead:

Thomas's Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ

Fact is as a Christian one should not be getting themselves invovled in worldly political pursuits.

"They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world"-John 17-16

" No; but I say that the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want YOU to become sharers with the demons." - Corinthians 10:20

So from that you can get the idea that politics and nations do not share Gods views. So should one be willing to fight and kill for there ideals?

"Everyone who hates his brother is a manslayer, and YOU know that no manslayer has everlasting life remaining in him. 16 By this we have come to know love, because that one surrendered his soul for us; and we are under obligation to surrender [our] souls for [our] brothers." - 1 Corinthians 13:15

"The second is this, ‘You must love your neighbour as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these" Mark 12:31

And Isaiah 2-2-4 which is way to long to quote.

But fact is how can we love our brother if we are to go out and kill him?

As for self-defence I think it comes down to the individual but one does have the right to defend themselves and family if there is no other choice.

Noones posted this yet?

"But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. "

Not the version that sticks in my mind, but Jesus wasn't all about turning the other cheek.

In order to answer this question correctly, we first must know what Jesus meant by "turning the other cheek." When he explained this concept, it wasn't to meant to make Christians pacifists. In fact, that is not the style of Christ or the Apostles. To "turn the other cheek" means to not return insults with insults, to confront hate with love and patients.

It does not mean to be idle when a violent crime or military action is placed upon us. The Bible teaches that we have the right to self defense, Exodus 22:2: "If the thief is caught while breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there will be no blood guiltiness on his account." The Bible also tells us to protect the innocent, Deut. 19:10, "So innocent blood will not be shed in the midst of your land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance, and blood guiltiness be on you." So, as you can see, we are instructed to defend ourselves and others.

How about war?

War is a state of declared, open, and armed conflict between two or more nations. It is sometimes undertaken in self-defense such as when the U.S. entered WWII as a result of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor. Other times, however, nations unjustly go to war to take spoils from other countries. Murder, on the other hand, is an unlawful taking of life and is always wrong. When nations go to war, it is declared lawful by the countries going to war -- sometimes for moral reasons and other times for immoral reasons. Therefore, and immoral war could be considered a form of murder where a moral war could be in self defense. But not all war is wrong.

I would conclude that war is justifiable when it is in self defense and/or when it is to protect the innocent. Therefore, a Christian could rightfully engage in war given those conditions. War is an unfortunate reality in this world and it causes great destruction, misery, and loss of life. It should be avoided if possible and undertaken only as a last resort.

God sent people to war:
"Then the Lord spoke to Moses in the plains of Moab by the Jordan opposite Jericho, saying, 51 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, "When you cross over the Jordan into the land of Canaan, 52 then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their figured stones, and destroy all their molten images and demolish all their high places; 53 and you shall take possession of the land and live in it, for I have given the land to you to possess it," (Num. 33:50-53).

God uses war as a means of disciplining nations:
"I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me, declares the Lord," (Amos 4:10).

The Lord is called a warrior:
"The Lord is a warrior; The Lord is His name. 4"Pharaoh's chariots and his army He has cast into the sea; And the choicest of his officers are drowned in the Red Sea," (Exodus 15:3-4).

With this said, "turning the other cheek" is different than self defense and protecting the innocent. It is a means to be slow to anger, insult, and feud. Killing is allowed by God for a Christian. But, under the circumstances in which I stated. Anything beyond that would be considered murder.

Jesus himself told his diciples the following.

Luke 22:35-38, Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered. He said to them, “But now if you have a purse take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell our cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied.

Because as Christians they must go out amount the "transgressors" self defense is permitted, IN fact peter struck a guard coming to get Jesus with a Sword infront of Jesus.

The reason Jesus stopped him was because it was what was meant to happen, NOT because self defense is bad.

As a Christian, with allegiance to Christ .....how does one then view being an American Citizen, with Allegiance to the Constitution and everything the Founding Fathers instilled when this country was stolen from the Natives, and made as their own.

That's the question. There is schism between being a Citizen and being a Christian.

What comes to mind is the recent National Guard manual, putting Christians in the same light as Al-CIAda, and a bunch of other shady terror-based groups.

I know the Bible predicts that in the last Christians will be hunted down and beheaded and what not.

That's why I ask, when does one fight, and when does one let go.

Originally posted by dominicus
This is an area I'm not too familiar in so I wanted to get a few opinions on the Christian view in terms of fighting.

Let's the U.S. is in a civil War where it's the citizens against Big Bro. Or a foreign invasion of some sort. Do you fight? Do you turn the other cheek as Jesus taught?

What if your brothers/sisters, friends are being killed, tortured, etc. DO you still turn the other cheek?

Where's the fine line between "Doing" something about it, and "Letting it Go"?

It is a matter of faith. If you believe that all things happen to you by God’s will and that you believe it is his will that you pursue love, regardless of the trials you face, than you can always “turn the other cheek”.

Jesus said no one can harm me if not for the will of the father. The choice you make is already known to the father, as is the outcome. Use your free will to love and you know the outcome is from the father. If the outcome is persecution you must understand that the lesson being taught is the one who is against love. Let God be the judge of that man.

With that being said, I believe that I have a right to protect my family in the face of danger. I don’t believe that God would present me with the situation where this was necessary and not forgive any action I take. Even in human terms we can relate to temporary insanity.

But war is pre meditated, those who go to war, no matter how noble the cause, never return the same.

Again we must even believe that war has a purpose and that all authority was put in place by God. And thus other than choosing love over war we only have one task. To get up and say something. If we know that love is the right way but sit around indifferent to those in charge who would lead us to war than the blood is on our hands as well.

As a Christian we are always instructed to love. If my brother strikes me I will always turn the other cheek. If my brother strikes my daughter, may God help him.

Originally posted by dominicus


That's why I ask, when does one fight, and when does one let go.

If it to fight for a political agenda then no. If it is to fight to protect your ownself and/or Family lifes then ok IF there is no other option.

Example if a Civil war eurpts a christian should keep out and not declare allegiance to either side. If either army comes round asking for food/place to stay and you have no choose then submit. If they insist on rapeing your wife/Children and killing you then resist.

As a Christian, I am a stranger in a strange land.

1 Pet. 2:11-12, "Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. 12Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us."

I can not change the past, but can change the future one person at a time. If someone is curious about my faith, I will answer as best I can. I am in the world, but not of the world. Meaning, because there are many sinful things in this world I need to rest, as best I can, the temptations of my own flesh. In trying to live a Christlike life, I glorify God. It is only through my faith in God which I can do this; inspite of my sins.

What comes to mind is the recent National Guard manual, putting Christians in the same light as Al-CIAda, and a bunch of other shady terror-based groups.

Check out my response in another thread here

That's why I ask, when does one fight, and when does one let go.

That is indeed a good question. I suppose I will have to follow the Holy Ghost when the time comes. It's a question which everyone will have to decide on when the time comes. My hope is we never have to make that decision. In the end, I will defend myself and others from harm to the best of my ability.

Seems there's a hidden question. Should government war policies be governed by the Church's rules? All sorts of interesting discussions out of that.

But in direct answer, you can find the "Christian take" in detail by studying Just War Theory.

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

there must be serious prospects of success;

the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

www.catholic.com...

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by dominicus

 

I think it's honorable to fight evil and tyranny, and/or to protect the weak.

Whuh? Wasn't it Jesus who said, "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword"?

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by dominicus

 

I think it's honorable to fight evil and tyranny, and/or to protect the weak.

Whuh? Wasn't it Jesus who said, "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword"?

Another good point.

And its a pretty relevant as those who are first to result to violence will normally die a violent death themselves eventually.

reply to post by jiggerj

Whuh? Wasn't it Jesus who said, "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword"?

Yes indded, they're called soldiers. In a technical view, you can add law enforcement to that as well.

As far as civillians go, I hardly believe that defending one's self or an innocent is "living by the sword." What's the atheist view on protecting the innocent from evil? Do atheists have an intellectual or moral stance on that? On what basis do they form those morals on?

Nothing personal Jiggerj, I just find it fascinating you would use a text you find irronious to defend your position. lol. Ironic.

reply to post by dominicus


Render unto Caesar that which is Caesear's
render unto God that which is God's.

Physical body is the house for the spiritual soul.
While both are joined together you follow the above rule.

Turn the other cheek is a baiting technique.
Jesus Christ himself said sell your coat and buy a sword.