Everyone's talking about God in one way or another.

"and he's a super high profile artist with the best songs you've ever heard" said the guy walking down the street talking with his friends.. (just outside now, out on the street near where I'm staying)

I hear this kind of thing all the time everywhere I go, even when they've COMPLAINING they're talking from and about the same fundamental need and desire, the same regret, the same frustrations and desire for acceptance, absolute love and understanding, knowing instinctively that they "we" are due something more, something most of us can't find of course but are nevertheless seeking diligently and more often than not, in spite of appearance and the nature of our most fundamental complaints, with everything we've got.

And I'm not talking here about some sort of pareidolia or a self-reinforcing attention bias in favor of certain metaphors, because it's ALL METAPHORS! The human language as symbol is rife with them and they''re everywhere, from the most exalted and profound to the most mundane to the most manipulative in the form of advertising and mainstream media (which is growing less and less "mainstream" every day). .

Yes it's a type of listening that a person could get a little carried away with I realize (by listening FOR metaphors and allegories), and sometimes the mundane is just the mundane and nothing more where we needn't be reading into everything a greater meaning which does not exist and was never intended, but as we all know they just slip out in the form of some sort of exaltation of a certain form of creative expression (like a good song), or the deep regret or sorrow and concern in relation to our deepest fears and anguishes.

But what it life IS story, and metaphor the very stuff of life itself?

Modern quantum science suggests this is just so. In other words that meaning and context embedded in language as symbol is decisive.

If so, then it's true really that was are all talking about God in one way or another, where God is the all-in-all and the very living manifestation of this thing we keep on talking about and can't stop talking about either.

When we consider it this way, the fundamental question and the whole frame of reference changes, and our practice of listening and our own self expression in relation to others is altered where we might stop and consider the premise of what we really talking about before engaging in mindless banter.

The only problem with this of course is then putting up with everyone else's nonsense, so it forces you to re-examine your own capacity to really listen to someone else and share their burdens no matter how pathetic and small-mindled and selfish they may be - there's the cross we must carry, in an ocean of misinterpreted and misunderstood societal memes and all manner of social conditioning including the very worldview we hold as being the REAL WORLD. We talk up all this nonsense and call it REAL but more often than not we're really talking about something else altogether, whether we realize it, or not.

If you can approach it (the conversation) in the right way, utterly giving up the need to be right and allowing them ALL to be right each in their own way, then we becomes the presence of the listening of none other than God who is simultaneously the most humorous being in the universe and the most long-suffering for the sake of righteousness i.e.: it's very sad but also very funny.

The "rock" (of knowing equanimity) we then sit on (without concern or in acceptance) becomes a source of great humor and charm as we open up to the deeper meaning and significance of the ongoing "conversation" everywhere and nowhere in particular and allow it, at times and as appropriate, to take the form of a conversation although seemingly mundane at one level, that is nevertheless expressing very fervently desires hopes, dreams and disappointments of the very farthest reaching proportions! (that's funny)

So the "this or that" [place conversation about whatever here], the "blah blah blah" - on listening, really listening, contains something embedded within it an allegory and a meaning of very deep and profound concern, at the REAL heart of the matter, when all is said and done, it's what it's really pointing to, and that's the whole person including their subconscious mind at work in their communication to us (if we REALLY listen well and are fully present to them). .

THE CONVERSATION - it's like the chatter of children excited in one way or another about this that or the other people places and things, you know, the particulars, but in such a way that these particulars become the very stuff of life itself, and we know it, that the story, the conversation is the lfie, which is why we all still take it all so seriously, even though we don't have but the first clue as to what we're really talking about or what's really going on. It's something to talk about, even if that something is nothing at all, either of the greatest or, the least concern. We just can't shut up I know I can't look at me now...

The metaphors and the allegories of the stories of life are life itself.

I have an ear for it you might say, and while it used to freak me out (like unending synchronicity - I'm sure more than a few of you have had that experience or apparent experience), now that I know what's happening and why, overheard conversations take the form of what I can only describe as a conversation about God in one form or another, but it's all the same conversation, at core, and that IS funny when you really think about it.

So from "the rock" we invite people to laugh right along with us at our own absurdity and the wonderful predicament that is life, about which the conversation could seemingly go on for an eternity!

It's all part of the creation process, this conversation and it's evolution.. - me I'm just waiting for the Omega Point of the Eschaton to bring about the Cosmogenesis of the Noosphere. Why?

Because it's an entirely NEW conversation about something actually better than what went before where the definition of insanity is to keep on doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result in this case a talking that is the doing or the present moment action, whether of some ailment, or of healing...

Did you know that the tongue is pretty much the first organ to form in the gestation of a human fetus? It's powerful, by far moreso than we know or realize I'm sure.

Looking back, from the space of true listening, we must have sufficient mercy and compassion though to never cause our humor to bring insult to our fellow man, and there's the beauty of putting up with all the endless talk.

So picking up our cross in this case is picking up and lending our ears to what on the one hand is utter nonsense, and on the other is speaking of the desire for union with God as love, fulfillment and everlasting satisfaction and enjoyment, even the possibility of creative play (as the recovered child within).

Maybe I've already started the "new conversation" right here hey anything's possible.

Listening with unconcerned yet with deep heartfelt compassion and love.

Best Regards,

NAM

P.S. Don't be afraid to say SOMETHING, anything at all..

Tell us a story!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Dear NewAgeMan,

I thought that was a really good OP. Some very interesting possibilities. In a way, we are all talking about God. I see it as a search for meaning and understanding of our conscious experience. The most basic questions is life start with, what am I and how did I get here. What am I supposed to do while I am here and is there something beyond what I see and hear. F&S.

reply to post by AQuestion


Here - I'll share first, to give you and everyone reading an idea of the kind of thing I'm thinking about here with this thread re: personal stories as the very stuff of life, and this little one of mine turns out to be self-referential in the most funny and interesting way imaginable, as you'll see..

It's something I posted earlier today in the thread New Trend Surfacing - It's Politically Incorrect to Say the "J" Word Now.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Speaking of Jesus...

When I was in nursery school as a 4 year old toddler (in fact this is the first memory that I've retained as a human being, in this life anyway), I once said the word Jesus in vain (I guess I'd heard an adult do so and maybe I hit my thumb or something) and a little girl told the teacher "he said Jesus!" in response to which I was mildly scolded. The same little girl then came back to me and asked me what I said, assuring me that she would not tell the teacher, so I told her "Jesus" to which she immediately cried out "He did it AGAIN, he said Jesus!" and I was thoroughly and properly scolded that time and given a warning. And so again, you guessed it, up to me comes the same little girl now in hushed, conspiratorial whispers, swearing and promising up and down that she would not tell if I told her what I'd said, just once more, so I whispered it "Jesus" and you guessed it, this time SHOUTING - "Teacher teacher he said it AGAIN, he said Jesus!" the result of which I was made to wear a dunce cap and stand facing the corner for the rest of the "school" day. (I'm serious).

Carl Jung is quoted as saying "what you resist only persists", so as fate would have it, both of my parents later became ordained ministers of the church so I had Jesus on both sides of me (cornered), and to this day, in spite of my rebellious atheist years in pursuit of the meaning of life anywhere else BUT the church, lo and behold I have become a Christian philosopher now brazenly throwing off the dunce cap in the name of Jesus and exiting the corner to face the world against any and all opposition to prove that Jesus Christ really was/is and remains the son of the living God (see my avatar for more).

God works in mysterious ways..

Oh God that still makes me LOL!

Sometimes you almost wonder if such things were MEANT to happen as if there's an intentionality of fate in the unfolding journey of a person's story - those are the most interesting and intriguing anecdotes.

But it could be anything, from the most ridiculous to the most mundane or absurd. Could be the time you did or experienced something unusual, something that really stuck with you throughout your life, a formative story of some kind or another.

Tell it - you'll be amazed at what's underneath it.

This is true Jungian Psychology.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Dear NewAgeMan,

An interesting story to be sure. You must be my age or older to have worn a dunce cap (I am 53). When I was in college, I was an agnostic. The school offered a class on "Comparative Religion". At the time I was researching the different religions to see if any of them rang true. I took the class and found it was not about examining religions, turned out the professor was an Atheist and he was attempting to discredit all religions. He made many false and biased statements and I found myself defending Christianity, much to my surprise. The fact that he made false claims led me to question my agnosticism even more.

To this day I am still fascinated by the visceral reaction people have to the mere idea that there may be a God. While there are many who were beaten over the head with bad theology, others reject the idea because it would mean that we are responsible for what we do in this life. I have three grown children, one a fundamentalist to the extreme, one very liberal and the other undecided. The third child believes there is a God; but, isn't sure what to do with her belief. She told me once that she had spent years hating God. She saw him as a limitation on doing whatever she wanted. Yes, she was the wild one. I know many people who believe in God; but, are unwilling to be forgiving of others. For them there true God is their hate of whatever happened to them in their past.

The God concept is not about whether or not we believe the earth is old or young, it is not about whether we believe in total immersion versus sprinkling for baptism. It is not even really about the nature of God or how he likes us to kneel when praying. It is the very scary idea that someone knows the evil little things inside us, that there is someone that we cannot hide from, someone that we cannot lie to and that one day we will have to face him and deal with who we are. Peace.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


What would be your response if God (it has a name and God is not it) knocked on your front door (this a metaphor mind you). You would wonder why someone hadnt called you first to arrange a meeting and suspect a saleman or a Religious type group bible in hand. You pretend you are not home. It happens again a week later even though you have placed 'no trespassing' signs on all 4 sides of your property. To avoid any further intrusions that may have disturbed lunch you open the door. What you are greeted with is the Universe presenting/wielding a two by four by eight upside the head home/mind invasion. Everything changes, what you thought you knew, you did not. You are a captive audience, and by the evidence shown to you forcefully you relent and in between sighs breathe the words "it would have taken nothing less to open my heart to the possibility there is a caring Creator that loves me".

"...and it's in the city, and it's bull# - the Artform.." (I think he meant something corrupt in some way standing in the way of "the artform") heard from outside the local tavern as I passed by just now returning to my rather humble abode with a sub sandwich from Subway Sub, now heating in the microwave for ravenous consumption - I tell you anything and everything could be taken metaphorically or allegorically, and it also tends to reflect back your own consciousness in strange serendipitously synchronistic ways, but I've learned not to get carried away with it, with this type of listening, or freak out in any way, it's more of a hobby now than anything, but it's intriguing how the conversation, the running conversation changes and reflects different facets of what's really going on in the life-story of humanity. If I'm not mistaken (taking off my dunce cap) it really is an evolving conversation, however slow and agonizing the process may appear to be, so there's hope that we'll start talking about and joking over ever more significant and meaningful things as time goes on, whereby as we know meaning and context IS decisive.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

Perfect. In this case, nothing more needs to be said. Thanks for that. Beautiful! Finally, you've made a post that I understand perfectly, as if you are no LONGER speaking in incomprehensible metaphors although I'm sure you yet will as the thread progresses we'll see (try to make them intelligible). Thanks again vethumanbeing, and remember to treat the cats with the utmost respect they deserve.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Metaphors? You want metaphors? I've got your metaphors right here. Not as good as vethumanbeing's, but i try to accomodate all requests.

I was in a Dollar Store, aimlessly strolling the aisles, looking for something worthwhile. A boy about 8 years old was directly in front of me, looking at toys on a rack. His mother was about ten feet ahead.

As the boy played, he knocked a toy to to the ground. His mother, alerted by the noise, came back to see what happened. The boy said "It just fell." I said, "No it didn't, you knocked it down."

The mother turned on me. Violence was barely avoided, but my vocabulary was increased substantially.

reply to post by AQuestion

Brilliant, but it's very funny from a certain perspective, and the degree to which we underestimate God's capacity for forgiveness and love in so hiding and running away.

If what I've come to now believe is true, while we ARE responsible, at the same time somehow and some way God WILL get us through. This is and can in no way be taken as a permissive framework to sin mind you, but it's an invitation into a type of communion capable of transcending our sins, and thus offering an irresistible invitation.

We fear change, transformation and what God has in store for sure, and barricade ourselves and hedge ourselves in on all sides to avoid at all cost an all knowing and all loving God, but from the POV of absolute forgiveness and love, looking in at the box we'd created for ourselves, it's hilarious! Utterly absurd. God can show us this, this joke at the expense of our own prior ignorance, folly and foibles, and where we simply must as my mother once said, and she was an ordained minister and therapist and spiritual director, and she was very gifted and powerful, in helping others (she's the best part of me really truth be told) - "sin with courage". There's playful humor there, and it doesn't really mean what you think it does, what a recommendation! Way to go mom!

When she was dying of cancer and the nurses would come in once or twice a day to help her out (I was living at home at the time - moved back adult you know the story) one nurse, hard as a ROCK meaning stonefaced, came to the door. I ushered her into my moms room and closed the door. That same lady came out of the room, a hardened nurse with HUGE defenses set in place over YEARS (it was engraved right into her face) - crying, weeping in fact, broken, and out she went, all composure lost, but it wasn't because she was brought to tears over my mother's plight, oh no. No my mom did "therapy" on her when she was working to help my mom out, because she saw in this lady the same thing I did, and went to work on it. 15-20 minutes max was all it took.

So I went into my mom's room and asked her - "what did you DO to her?" to which my mother, Kay calmly and sweetly said "oh she just had some mourning to do over the loss of her husband that she'd been putting off for a number of years" like it was NOTHING or no big deal, but you see this same lady was ICE when she entered our house!

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Metaphors? You want metaphors? I've got your metaphors right here. Not as good as vethumanbeing's, but i try to accomodate all requests.

I was in a Dollar Store, aimlessly strolling the aisles, looking for something worthwhile. A boy about 8 years old was directly in front of me, looking at toys on a rack. His mother was about ten feet ahead.

As the boy played, he knocked a toy to to the ground. His mother, alerted by the noise, came back to see what happened. The boy said "It just fell." I said, "No it didn't, you knocked it down."

The mother turned on me. Violence was barely avoided, but my vocabulary was increased substantially.

Ok, now what do you think it means or signifies..?

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Metaphors? You want metaphors? I've got your metaphors right here. Not as good as vethumanbeing's, but i try to accomodate all requests.

I was in a Dollar Store, aimlessly strolling the aisles, looking for something worthwhile. A boy about 8 years old was directly in front of me, looking at toys on a rack. His mother was about ten feet ahead.
As the boy played, he knocked a toy to to the ground. His mother, alerted by the noise, came back to see what happened. The boy said "It just fell." I said, "No it didn't, you knocked it down."
The mother turned on me. Violence was barely avoided, but my vocabulary was increased substantially.

The toy falling was a sign, you should have told the mother "the toy had attitude and fell for your boy its a wonder his hands missed the designated drop point" or you could have called the fate and destiny card, (then) you say "it is your duty MOM to purchase it and if you dont I WILL because obviously the Boy is meant to have it" (its a dollar store unless you were a cent short plus tax) afterwhich you slap the kid, blame the mother call authorities and beat it out of there dropping intended purchases at checkout.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Dear NewAgeMan,

What!? I have to interpret, too?

Perhaps I've missed your purpose, if so, I apologize for wasting your time.

Dollar Store. Surrounded by material goods, aimless, lost.

Boy: Curious youth, exploring the world, following his own desires.

Falling Toy: Consequences of our actions, our mistakes.

My Correction: Judgment

Mother: Protecting boy from harm, mother love to extreme.

To me? Don't poke a bear's cub. To the others? Who knows?

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Dear NewAgeMan,

What!? I have to interpret, too?

Perhaps I've missed your purpose, if so, I apologize for wasting your time.
Dollar Store. Surrounded by material goods, aimless, lost.
Boy: Curious youth, exploring the world, following his own desires.
Falling Toy: Consequences of our actions, our mistakes.
My Correction: Judgment
Mother: Protecting boy from harm, mother love to extreme.
To me? Don't poke a bear's cub. To the others? Who knows?

I have the same problem charles; nam requires a lot of patience and I have to destroy my best work when having to explain it (there goes all of the fun).

reply to post by charles1952

Very good. I got some hints..

We're all wrestling over God also in the midst of all the role playing I forgot to add that part.

It's better though I think for us all that God is invisible and apparently absent - makes for the possibility of a lot of comedy though that's for sure!

reply to post by vethumanbeing


The boy was 8.

So you see, I'm not always as dumb as I come across (concerned about dunce cap feeling cornered now). .

This is a fun thread - I do hope others choose to wade in or to enter the fray as dangerous as it might appear at first glance.

Tell us a story, anything, stream of consciousness even it doesn't matter - let's put the theory presented in the OP to the test and learn how to read these things from a new perspective, one filled with the capacity for great humor!

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Dollar Store. Surrounded by material goods, aimless, lost.

Boy: Curious youth, exploring the world, following his own desires.

Falling Toy: Consequences of our actions, our mistakes.

My Correction: Judgment

Mother: Protecting boy from harm, mother love to extreme.

To me? Don't poke a bear's cub. To the others? Who knows?

You never know, might have been their "come to Jesus" moment (I mean that allegorically) as they both reflect on it, even subconsciously. Boy lied, mother fought, you judged.

You might have done them both a big favor.

Sounds like things got a little carried away though, and hey it always takes two to tango.

Thanks for sharing.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

The boy was 8.

So you see, I'm not always as dumb as I come across (concerned about dunce cap feeling cornered now). .

Yes, and Aquestion is 53. Duncecap, corner related. You are Doctorate Thesis material. I was talking today (to someone somewhere) about the brilliant content of the "least noticed' forum I cannot stay away from, (its potencial). The subject matter is outstanding, the debates unbelieveably clear. There are times I cannot determine a winner. Let me throw some contributor names out there : NewAgeMan, BB+random #, Logical7, AfterInfinity, Akushla99 (disapeared) New Bible prospector books; I will take the Revelations.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Dear NewAgeMan,

That was a beautiful story. My personal greater spiritual experience started, I believe, with holding my father's hand as he passed away in my house, chemo having destroyed his organs and my mothers death having destroyed his joy of life a few years earlier. Thank you for having begun this thread, lots of good stuff coming out of it to consider.

About two years ago, I was recruited to preach. About three weeks ago I gave a sermon on forgiveness. I talked about how we cannot truly know or enjoy communing with God if we keep hate in our heart. In short, we cannot move forward if we choose to hold ourselves back. Hey, my sermons are pretty simple thoughts on the bible and life, easy to summarize, the detail is really just for emphasis and to make sure I fill the time slot. LOL. I love ATS because the Atheists always give me something to preach about. Anyways, after the sermon a number of people came up to me to tell me how it felt like I was talking just to them, I get that a lot and don't understand it. Another said that they knew now that they had to finally forgive someone from long in their past.

A little explanation. I preach to a primarily gay, Hispanic, non-English speaking group. Many have been thrown out of churches or were facing death in their native countries. I myself and white, straight and only speak English. I don't know the history of these people because they cannot tell me, I have to be translated. I get bits and pieces; but, I don't even know all the names. I will not go into the specifics; but, a man who worked for a company that my organization contracts with was the one who approached me to preach. He barely knew me and it turned out that he had worked for one of the most famous preachers in the last 100 years, he also started 15 straight churches is south and central America, I barely knew the guy. He told me he was gay (I would have never guessed) and had started a church for those who other churches would not talk to about God. Having had a NDE, it was easy choice; but, quite a risk for him to have told me these things, nobody in my organization or his company knew he was gay.

The next part of the story. Someone else I know had asked me what I had preached about and I told them, I preached about forgiveness and letting go of the past to move forward in our relationship with God. He flipped, literally flipped out and began screaming and cussing over the phone. This is a person who claims to be a christian and plans on getting a masters in Theology. There are some things that he refuses to forgive.

Recently on ATS I spoke to someone U2U, they had ranted about God while claiming he did not exist. Irrationality is always interesting. I answered their questions in private and they said they were going to respond; but, they did not address any of my statements. Vilifying God is a way of avoiding God, it is an excuse for doing what we want. A true non-believer could care less what we think. I don't get outraged at the thought of someone believing they are a Jedi (the fastest growing religion in England). I find it silly and ignore it. We are only really outraged when we fear the other person might be right. Peace.