Attention all ATS aquarium experts... A fishy problem....

reply to post by 74Templar


Although technically you can do it, keeping goldfish with tropicals is generally a no no in the hobby. The problems are twofold, goldfish really are supposed to be a cold-water fish. However, they sometimes do well in warmer water - which in itself is a problem because of their backsides. Goldfish are incredibly messy fish, and will quickly pollute a tank, especially a small tank with their waste which speeds up in warmer waters.

If you like the idea though (in SE QLD, I'd be going for Rainbows! But that's me), how about starting with some of the Danio species. Danios (Zebra, pearl, leopard) or even White Cloud Mountain Minnows are very cheap fish which will go great in either cold or wet water, and can be good to get the biological filter working at first if you just get a few. Fast and lively as well.

Your extremely lucky to be on tank water! Especially the rain you've been having lately! Perhaps consider an outside pond for goldfish? (Just make sure your not in a low lying property so they don't get in your local waterways).

I'll just leave this here to show how natural a big school of neons looks, I think it's insanely peaceful and gorgeous :-)

(More examples in my thread in sig)

reply to post by 74Templar


A week of solid running, as long as the water remains clear, and you are ready for "real" fish. Cloudiness in your water indicates a problem of some sort.

They'll co-habitate just fine, goldfish are passive. and blend with anything.

However, like Qum says, they are not meant as long term tank inhabitants. The "dirty" I was talking about earlier means that they produce more waste over a period of time than do tropical fish, and they are not nearly as pretty.

As long as your daughter doesn't get attached to them, and name them, you should be fine with "trading" them for "credit" at your local pet shop. *wink*

The choice is yours, actually, as to whether or not you "flush" them or leave them be. A local stream or lake is a good place to release them as well. The few you start with shouldn't present any problems, and your tank should be able to maintain at least a dozen fish comfortably. Waste-wise, though, pertaining to tank cleanliness, one of those gold fish is equivalent to 3 tropical fish. You'll want to perhaps save them long enough to set up a second tank? A month or more? Up to you.

reply to post by 74Templar


I would be careful with mollies, they are brackish(slightly salty water) fish and cant live in pure fresh water, guppies are also good fish but the fish Ive done the best with are danios
www.danios.info...
they are incredibly hardy fish and are best for people starting out with aquaiiums

reply to post by Druid42


*GASP*

Just one thing I have to take you up on (really didn't want to though, its not personal). Only because it's something I'm really passionate about.
Releasing unwanted fish, especially goldfish, in a local pond or stream is actually 1. Illegal and 2. Can be extremely devastating for ecosystems. I know Florida has many struggling livebearing species habitats due to goldfish. But especially in SE Queensland there are still species of Rainbow fish to be discovered, as well as other species of shrimps. Also, flooding is a major issue in that part these days, so pond releases can very quickly end up in streams.
As grey 943(numbers) said above me and I mentioned earlier, Danios are a good choice and are good fish species especially if aiming to keep tropicals down the track in the same tank.


Edit (check out ANGFA forums or Aquariumlife forums (not been on either for a few years though now) because not only will you find heaps of fellow fishkeepers from Australia, but there is tonnes of gear being sold second hand for some great prices. You can pick up 4ft tanks for as little as $20 at times.

In your area is a huge fish farm called livefish.com.au which is one of the main supplies to most pet shops in oz. But it's a good site to get an idea on how much you will be paying in your local fish shop (add a dollar or two onto prices). You can order from them direct as well, which 1. Cut's out the middle man saving you dollars. 2. Lessens the chance of disease. 3. Less stressful for the fish, depending on the shop, (I've worked at a few) sometimes fish will be put in, and all cleared out in a day or two, the fish don't even get a chance to settle.

Although, the proper specialist stores (check those forums to get recommendations in your area, I'm more up to date on the Melbourne fish scene) will keep the fish in back room tanks to settle and keep an eye on them for any signs of problems.

Don't buy from a shop that lets you buy neons and livebearers for the same tank, as the guy above me stated and I mentioned, they have different water requirements. Although, they can get along fine, and in some cases seem pretty dandy, the lb's will prefer some salt.

reply to post by Qumulys


We have a problem here (FL) with Snakefish sometimes too.

Google it only if you want nightmares...

theframeproblem.wordpress.com...

reply to post by Gazrok


Doesn't surprise me! Monsterfishkeepers (mainly american based forum about massive species) probably gets some people too enthusiastic about keeping species that really should not be in peoples (relative) small home tanks. Those snakefish are one such species, which are fed goldfish in captivity! Some bright-spark probably put them in after the wild released goldfish..

Sadly (I'm a aquatic plant guy), people have been flushing left over plants which have introduced species which are choking out some waterways. Rightly so, imported plants for home aquarists are being watched closely now by our customs. 10 years ago, the community in Oz was madly collecting rare species from the world over but they ended up in the wild instead of staying in tanks. Now, I've been seeing a growth in interest in local species of plants and fish which is heartening to see. Big thanks to Dave Wilson and the aboriginal landowners who are allowing him to go on expeditions in the Northern Territory to discover new species and propogate them for our hobby, which 25 years ago was 99% made up of purely imported species. It's given us a real responsible choice.

reply to post by Qumulys


Yikes. I forgot for a second you guys are down under. Bad, bad, bad, to introduce foreign species into the native ecosystem.

I was thinking on the local level, Northern Ohio species. I've a lake behind my house, with all sorts of predatory creatures. Snapping turtles, geese, swan, blue herons, bass, both large and small mouth, and crappies, all which would find a few errant goldfish a tasty meal. There's a very minuscule chance that they would survive long enough to reproduce, with the even smaller chance that they would school is such a vast body of water, coupled with the fact that separate genders would need to be established in such a small sample released. Foreign species need to reproduce to in order to contaminate an established ecosystem, of course, and in my scenario, 6 goldfish contaminating an entire seven acre lake, fresh water fed, is not causing any harm.

Thanks for the correction, and the well-placed admonishment. I have no idea how your ecosystems function down there, let alone the different species native to the local. To suggest release of unwanted fish into the wild is not acceptable, and I do not promote the idea, save in well-controlled scenarios such as my own. I have fished this lake, (catch and release), hiked, and observed the native species, (a photog's heaven!) and know that in my situation, it would be acceptable.

That was some irresponsible advice, and it's retracted.

reply to post by Druid42


You have my utmost respect now, not many are willing to accept getting things a bit wrong and apologise/retract a statement. It shows great honour and integrity! (Trust me, I allllways get things wrong myself so I'm no saint or genius on things at all, I'd love your grace in the way you handled yourself!) A+ to you

But yes, Queensland and indeed all of Australia has a rather unique ecosystem which is under a lot of strain lately. We are famous for our cane toad problems, especially where the OP lives.

I lived in Louisianna for a while and our property backed onto a bayou, it was an alien world to me as a aussie, but what an astonishing ecosystem it was! We had alligators sitting on the bank of our backyard not 50 meters from the back door! But my god, what a beautiful place it was. I wanted to explore the waterways, but found many convenient excuses due to the fact I enjoy having arms and a head and didn't feel like sharing them with a snappy beast. But oh my god, I've never eaten so many weird things in my life whilst there!

reply to post by Qumulys


Don't worry, I have no intention of releasing any domestic animals into the streams or rivers around here. Given the fact most of the local rivers have flooded at least four times this wet season, there's no telling where anything would end up. I also spent many years and a lot of money building the back half of my property into a kind of mini-tropical rainforest, simply just to attract the local wildlife and give them a home. Not going to throw that away on any invasive species that's for sure.

I'm going to have a closer look after the weekend and speak to the local pet centre, who are pretty much experts on anything fish, and can help me get started with certain types of fish. I've had a bit of a look at pet stores locally here in Melbourne where I'm staying, more just to give me an idea of what's available and what will work best.

The biggest concern I have getting gold fish as starter fish is exactly as Druid said, they will become pets, as my daughter will want to keep anything that goes in there. Once that happens they won't be going anywhere. But, like anything, I'll just monitor the tank closely, and make a decision if they seem to be not doing the best for the environment there. I can always look at a second small tank just for the goldfish otherwise.

reply to post by 74Templar


Oh, one more thing. Goldfish live (as long as they are happy) for an incredibly long time, One of my very first goldfish I got when I was 9 was sent to a friends outdoor tank. He was still alive when I went back when I was 30! That's 21 years! If your starting with goldfish, just make sure you do weekly water changes because they foul a tank quickly. But some of them are just built tough, and will live in just about anything, but to get in the habit keep them clean.

Tropicals (smaller species) typically last from around 2-5 years (danios, tetras). Generally a bigger size = longer lifespan. So your dwarf cichlid species are around the 3-8 years. Unless you plan on having a behemoth (but labradore type friendly) fish, don't get a giant gourami!

Personally it breaks my heart seeing a fish in this size range in such a small tank. My lounge tank is 7 feet long and has a 6 foot sump tank under it. There's around 1.5 tonnes of water (I hope it doesn't spring leak) there, but in it is a small school 25 ish neon's and a breeding colony of Kribensis. (kribs are a wonderfully easy fish to breed and are quite hardy. They will care for their young with such love... Until they get to about 15mm, then they start chasing them away. 30 years back, the colours of Kribs in Oz was amazing. But over that time they have been interbred over and over and over and have lost a lot of the intense crimson. Although from time to time they get in fresh wild stock, so if your after them, take some time looking for them. Saying that, most look drab in your local shop. Why? Very little hardscape, they need rocks, hiding holes, wood, and foliage. It's very hard having that in a shop tank because they become impossible to catch out for the customer. A good shop however will have display only tanks. Check the colours of fish in those tanks, that will give you a better idea.

I'm insanely jealous of your tank water! Your fish will thrive so easily, just don't overfeed which is the main thing people stuff up. My sister lives up near Nerang river (I haven't visited her yet) but I know her kids have caught some Melanotaenia duboulayi with nets. (I'll put a pic of them at the end of this pos). If I lived there, it would be them! Also from those parts are gudgeon's, which can be an entertaining species to look into.

Could be a great bonding idea for yourself and your daughter!
Research the indigenous species to your local area, then get out and explore the natural habitat, SE QLD has a fantastic wealth of species. Then try and replicate it at home in what's known as a "Biotope". You will already have ideal water conditions which is of incredible benefit. Gudgeon's and most Rainbow fishes can easily be tracked down now on the forums I've previously mentioned.
I'm not saying to take wild specimen yourself, it's a complex moral issue, but I think the educational benefits are there for a youngster. Even perhaps collect some, study them overnight in a tank and then release them the next day. But collecting native plant species and identifying them can be a fun introduction to science!

It's such a rewarding hobby and the books are limitless! I'd recommend grabbing (if your library has it) any encyclopaedia of fish by Herbert Axelrod (neons are his namesake). Many things have been learnt since his time now, but it will give you a good grounding in what species like what conditions.


These are the Rainbows (roughly... but hopefully!) on your doorstep!

reply to post by Qumulys


That makes me miss my old salt tank. It was a 150 gallon monster with 3/4 inch thick glass(made before they started using acrylic) and it weighed over 200lbs without water. I had that thing for about 20years but I cracked it in my last move now a friend uses it for his bearded dragons.

reply to post by 74Templar


There's no harm in keeping your starter goldfish, and adding in a few Danios, or whatever. Add in the pretty fish once the tank is established, then you'll see the parameters involved. Aquariums are addictive, and once you have a fully stable tank, you'll want to create another.

My recommendation would be to start two (10 gallon) tanks. Start the second after the first is established, in a week or more, and report back with your fish health. If you can keep two small tanks healthy, (crystal clear water) you are ready to upgrade.

BTW, check out the CW Forum.

reply to post by Agarta


I'd love a tank that big. 55 was the extent of my freshwater experience.

OMG, what 150 gallons would do.

reply to post by Druid42


My parents is about the same size I'd say. It's about 3metresX1.5mX800mm (WxHxD). It's built into the house, and is basically the divider between their main lounge and the dining room, and can be seen from both sides. They have all kinds of fish, live plants, all sorts of stuff in there. Next time I'm in SA I'll take some pics and post them up.

I may go with what you said and start up two small tanks, one for the goldies and then establish a tropical tank once we're started. The question is, can I get the initial setup going, then transplant the goldfish to another tank once that's going without causing them too much stress, or even killing them?

reply to post by 74Templar


Sure, no problem moving the goldfish. It's the delicate tropicals you don't want to switch, until you have two well established tanks.

That's a good idea by the way, if you plan on breeding down the road. The other tank could serve as an isolation tank as well.

reply to post by Qumulys


Just to give you an idea of the backyard and the ecosystem, this is the back 3 acres or so of the property. I planted most of it about 12 years ago, and it backs onto the nearby state forest. Since then it has grown mad, and has become a hangout for all kinds of natural wildlife.



To the right of the house you can see one of the tanks that feeds the house. I think it is around 25000 litres.


That should give you an idea of the land around me. I'm going to look into the Rainbowfish tomorrow, and see if there are any locally in the waterways around here. Cheers for the info.

reply to post by 74Templar


Hi, Nice Pictures. Looks like Paradise.

Just wondering how you got on with your Aquarium.

Here's a video of my new baby Mollies (tiny) and some more grown up ones.



It's almost self-sustaining, snails eat the algae, while the

seed shrimps eat left over food before it can rot, providing live food for the fish.

At the moment i am only filling water up as it evaporates

and cleaning the filters gently without disturbing the Housing (I can take them out at the top).

I don't have a breeding thingy, so "nature" decides how many babies survive.

They have many hiding places so the ones who can move fast and hide well survive.

Peace.

reply to post by Theflyingweldsman


Everything's set up and running, just waiting a week or so to start putting some fish in.

Once I've got it running will post up some pics.

reply to post by 74Templar

and a new one starring snail shrimps, who have started eating baby snails



How's your's doing ?

I never started out with goldfish i don't care for little fish i took the jump 7 years ago and started with a 150 gallon tank i have 2 Oscars they are very big fish..
Just don't over crowd your tank have a good filter system and change your filters often to help keep the tank clean..
Over feeding is a huge problem be-careful not to do that Ive had my Oscars for 7 years with no problems and there so much fun to watch..good luck with your tank and fish peace,sugarcookie1