Origins: Let’s build a so called ATS Model of the Universe

This is a step by step community project (not a scientific model but no "purple unicorns")

Your choice: Either answer the current question, ask a question to clarify the question that is under consideration, or say whatever you want about the universe or the idea of a so called ATS Model of the Universe, pros and cons, including mainstream physics and cosmological conspiracies.

I'll try to sort out the so called ATS Model of the Universe from the various contributions.

I’ll start with a contribution and a question: There was a Big Bang and everything we can now see in our Hubble view is connected to that event; true or conspiracy.

Tell me what came before the Big Bang?

reply to post by BogieSmiles


First of all, for the Big Bang to have occurred, there had to be energy/matter and to date, no one has been able to define exactly where all the energy/matter in the universe came from.

Seriously. The universe in its natural state is empty, cold and dark. All the additives had to come from somewhere.

After that, then we can do the Big Bang or... whatever.

Gonna save this thread to see what discoveries are made.

S&F for the first interesting thread in a while

reply to post by BogieSmiles

I’ll start with a contribution and a question: There was a Big Bang and everything we can now see in our Hubble view is connected to that event. Tell me what came before the Big Bang?

The Big Bang was only a Small Bang, seeing as the universe has always existed. Because there has never been, nor could there ever be, a state of absolute nothing, this realm of ours goes on foreverrrrrrr.

So, before the Small Bang the universe was in a state of chaotic energy that coalesced and created little tiny balls of mass that popped like popcorn - a billion trillion small bangs! These little bangs formed bubble-verses (we live in one) that harmlessly bounce off each other.

Just my thinking on the matter.

Originally posted by BogieSmiles
Tell me what came before the Big Bang?

Time (in this universe) started at the Big Bang, so the answer is "nothing".

Like asking what color your hair was, 515 years before you were born.

Now of course it has been hypothesised that our universe has bubbled and split off from another one, but that doesnt run the continuity of time backwards through that origin.

Other big bangs.

Before the first big bang in any dimension, universe, ever?

Infinity, existence, that which Encompasses All... GOD!

reply to post by BogieSmiles


Tell me what came before the Big Bang?

WORD / LOGOS / LAW / PROGRAMMING

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

The other answer is, that which is not VISIBLE in the IMAGE.

Hebrews 11

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

According to the Dirac Relativistic Quantum Wave Equation, the universe is parallel to another universe of anti-matter. The event horizon between both is the 'NOW' of dimensional time. As you, the 3D character, casts a 2D shadow, so the 4th Dimension casts you as a 3D shadow of TIME. The 5th Dimension is a probability space governed by LOGOS. The shadow cast by the 5th Dimension is the slice of time we see as 'now' in the 3rd dimension. In reality, there is a broader view of past and future that can be seen from the dimension above the 4th. Just as we can conceptualize the other two sides of 'now' by imagining in slices, so a 2D character in flatland could only imagine the other dimensions of up and down. The probability space is governed. Law dictates the dimensions below by this cascading event horizon of mater and antimatter collapsing the wave function of our consciousness.

We are a loaf of bread in slices, with Christ being the head and tail of the loaf (The Heel).

In the beginning (TIME), God created the Heavens (SPACE) and the Earth (MATTER). Fiat Lux! Let there be Energy and Light. Genesis 1:1-3

Genesis 1:27

From the formless void of Energy in a state of high order and low entropy, God created the holographic image of Paradise in matter. We are INSIDE this image and we ARE the image of God.

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

What is an image? It's a copy of something else.

Hebrews 9

24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence.

Genesis 1 is the Imaging of Paradise. Genesis 2 is the rendering of the copy into Time, Space, Matter and Energy. God created man on day 6 and rested on 7. On day 8, he created the Genesis 2 material world and cast Adam into it for the rising of children of God. Adam was the first soul, the image of all of creation in one being, containing all souls together as one loaf of bread. Bread must bake to be cut. The Son must be raised in the wilderness of the Prodigal Son.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Jesus in the first century was a symbol of the sacrifice of the Son to raise all the souls of humanity as a parallel to God the Father in Heaven. The copy was made for the son to raise generations of other life for the glory of the one who Created the process.

1 Corinthians 10

16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

The cup we bear as slices of the loaf are the trials that refine us back to God. We, who are many, are from ONE loaf of Soul. Why? Involution and Evolution is the process of baptism into the waters of life. Spirit (first soul) is involved into the water so that the Son can rise again. We, who are many, rise together with the Son.

Gospel of the Nazarenes (Lection 88)

12. For by involution and evolution shall the salvation of all the world be accomplished: by the Descent of Spirit into matter, and the Ascent of matter into Spirit through the ages.

There is no paradox with Evolution and Creation. We are involved so we can evolve. The Son is all of us, yet Adam is the Father and Jesus is the last Adam. The heel of the loaf is Christ.

1 Corinthians 15

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

Through the Blood (TREE OF LIFE / DNA) of Christ (The Last Adam), the new man emerges. A new Heaven and Earth await us when we transpose this mortal coil.

The End.

What does the heel accomplish for the Children of God?

Genesis 3

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

edit on 4-3-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

It's turtles all the way down.

(but the first "turtle" was something the bible may have gotten right. If the string theory is close to being correct - and I sense quite a bit missing in it - then a stirring of the "waters" put things into motion, motion which, by the very fact that something moved, quickly pulled time, space, polarities, and gravity into existence which then, by that very act, pumped so much energy into the system that the thing blew apart. What stirred the waters? A turning of some sort, a non-time non-space intent.)

the ancient egyptians had a few thoughts about this

one was atum, who was created from a void (nun), he was a mound (phallical image)....
he self generated air and moisture, in a "big bang" sort of "ejaculation" and "spitting"

which is where we get our big bang theory from. (and the term atom)

then there is
ptah, who created through thought and speech. a divine conciousness

ptah was much older than atum... as well as later being affirmed as atums creater...neferatum

reply to post by BogieSmiles


Before the Big bang was the outer universe, in which the inner universe could explode into Existence.....a bubble within a bubble....well, many bubbles within a bigger bubble, that itself is within yet another bigger bubble.

It's all bubbles....BABY!!!! lol

I've often wondered that same thing.

What came before the bang?
The current view on matter and energy is that neither can be created nor destroyed. If that's the case, then all the matter and energy present in the universe today had to have existed before the bang.

What caused the bang?
Since all the matter and energy existed before the bang, then I assume that all the matter and energy converged at one point. A super critical mass developed and exploded, re-disbursing the matter.

It's happened before and will happen again. The universe is a perpetually oscillating system.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Thank you for that, I generally find your posts very intriguing and chock full of good information, and this one was no different.

I think the Law of One has a fantastic description for the cosmology of the universe, which I will quote herein-

13.5 Questioner: Thank you. Can you tell me of the earliest, first known thing in the creation?
Ra: I am Ra. The first known thing in the creation is infinity. The infinity is creation.

13.6 Questioner: From this infinity then must come what we experience as creation. What was the next step or the next evolvement?
Ra: I am Ra. Infinity became aware. This was the next step.

13.7 Questioner: After this, what happened?
Ra: Awareness led to the focus of infinity into infinite energy. You have called this by various vibrational sound complexes, the most common to your ears being “Logos” or “Love.” The Creator is the focusing of infinity as an aware or conscious principle called by us as closely as we can create understanding/learning in your language, intelligent infinity.

13.8 Questioner: Can you state the next step?
Ra: The next step is still at this space/time nexus in your illusion achieving its progression as you may see it in your illusion. The next step is an infinite reaction to the creative principle following the Law of One in one of its primal distortions, freedom of will. Thus many, many dimensions, infinite in number, are possible. The energy moves from the intelligent infinity due first to the outpouring of randomized creative force, this then creating patterns which in holographic style appear as the entire creation no matter which direction or energy is explored. These patterns of energy begin then to regularize their own local, shall we say, rhythms and fields of energy, thus creating dimensions and universes.

13.9 Questioner: Then can you tell me how [the] galaxy and this planetary system were formed?
Ra: I am Ra. You must imagine a great leap of thought in this query, for at the last query the physical, as you call, it, universes were not yet born. The energies moved in increasingly intelligent patterns until the individualization of various energies emanating from the creative principle of intelligent infinity became such as to be co-Creators. Thus the so-called physical matter began. The concept of light is instrumental in grasping this great leap of thought as this vibrational distortion of infinity is the building block of that which is known as matter, the light being intelligent and full of energy, thus being the first distortion of intelligent infinity which was called by the creative principle. This light of love was made to have in its occurrences of being certain characteristics, among them the infinite whole paradoxically described by the straight line, as you would call it. This paradox is responsible for the shape of the various physical illusion entities you call solar systems, galaxies, and planets, all revolving and tending towards the lenticular.

More here-
www.lawofone.info...
www.lawofone.info...

And so on... it's all really very fascinating. If Enoch or anyone else would care to comment on that material, I'd be very interested in hearing their thoughts...

Ten responses, ranging from creation, something from nothing, always existed, infinity and Ra, turtles all the way down, bubbles everywhere, Eqytian Atum, and some outside reading which I haven't gotten to yet. Unless there are unique explanations to come for the preconditions to the big bang, I will try to present a post later that will put the question up for further consideration; a kind of brainstorming perhaps, where we, as a group if possible, will try to say what is the best answer to the question.

Originally posted by BogieSmiles
This is a step by step community project (not a scientific model but no "purple unicorns")

Your choice: Either answer the current question, ask a question to clarify the question that is under consideration, or say whatever you want about the universe or the idea of a so called ATS Model of the Universe, pros and cons, including mainstream physics and cosmological conspiracies.

I'll try to sort out the so called ATS Model of the Universe from the various contributions.

I’ll start with a contribution and a question: There was a Big Bang and everything we can now see in our Hubble view is connected to that event; true or conspiracy.

Tell me what came before the Big Bang?

edit on 4-3-2013 by BogieSmiles because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-3-2013 by BogieSmiles because: (no reason given)

It is really difficult to say what and when our origins come from.
Heck,even the scientist are confused.

The oldest known star appears to be older than the universe itself, but a new study is helping to clear up this seeming paradox. Previous research had estimated that the Milky Way galaxy's so-called "Methuselah star" is up to 16 billion years old. That's a problem, since most researchers agree that the Big Bang that created the universe occurred about 13.8 billion years ago. Now a team of astronomers has derived a new, less nonsensical age for the Methuselah star, incorporating information about its distance, brightness, composition and structure. NEWS: Is This A Baby Picture Of A Giant Planet? "Put all of those ingredients together, and you get an age of 14.5 billion years, with a residual uncertainty that makes the star's age compatible with the age of the universe," study lead author Howard Bond, of Pennsylvania State University and the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore, said in a statement. [Gallery: The Methuselah Star Revealed] The uncertainty Bond refers to is plus or minus 800 million years, which means the star could actually be 13.7 billion years old — younger than the universe as it's currently understood, though just barely.

news.discovery.com...

What came first,the chicken or the egg?

Actually ,two things come to mind,multiverses..
www.space.com...

And Doctor Suess's Horton Hear's a Who



Who is to say we are not more then just a mere speck to something else.

I have tried to capture each response in fifty words or less that convey what I hope is a fair representation of each response to my question, "Tell me what came before the Big Bang?" I tried to categorize each into one of the four explanations for the existence of the universe that seem to be represented:

1) Creation or a creator
2) From nothingness 
3) No beginning, always existed
4) Other

[Redoubt]The universe in its natural state is empty, cold and dark. All the additives had to come from somewhere. After that, then we can do the Big Bang or... whatever.[/Redoubt]

This one is hard to categorize so I ask Redoubt what category it belongs; maybe it should be #4

[Jiggerj]... the universe has always existed. ...there has never been a state of absolute nothing. A state of chaotic energy that coalesced and created little tiny balls of mass a billion trillion small bangs! These little bangs formed bubble-verses (we live in one) that harmlessly bounce off each other.
[/Jiggerj]

Clearly #3

[Alpha1]Time (in this universe) started at the Big Bang, so the answer is "nothing".
[/Alpha1]

Clearly #2

[KamaSutra]Other big bangs. 

Before the first big bang ... Infinity, existence, that which Encompasses All... GOD!"

[/KamaSutra]

I'd put this in as a #1

[EnochWasRight]WORD / LOGOS / LAW / PROGRAMMING ... So God created mankind in his own image, 
in the image of God he created them; 
male and female he created them. 
... Genesis 1 is the Imaging of Paradise. Genesis 2 is the rendering of the copy into Time, Space, Matter and Energy. God created man on day 6 and rested on 7.
[/EnochWasRight]

Also #1

[Aleister]It's turtles all the way down. 
... (but the first "turtle" was something the bible may have gotten right....- then a stirring of the "waters" put things into motion, ... quickly pulled time, space, polarities, and gravity into existence which ... pumped so much energy into the system that the thing blew apart. What stirred the waters? A turning of some sort, a non-time non-space intent.).
[/Aleister]

I think this belongs in #1

[ThePharaoh]The ancient egyptians had a few thoughts about this 

one was atum, who was created from a void (nun), he was a mound (phallical image).... 
he self generated air and moisture, in a "big bang" sort of "ejaculation" and "spitting" which is where we get our big bang theory from. (and the term atom) 
[/ThePharaoh]

If I understand this properly it is a #2

[LightAssassin]Before the Big bang was the outer universe, in which the inner universe could explode into Existence.....a bubble within a bubble....well, many bubbles within a bigger bubble, that itself is within yet another bigger bubble. 

It's all bubbles....BABY!!!! lol"
[/LightAssassin]

This looks like a #3 to me

[N3k9Ni]What came before the bang? 
The current view on matter and energy is that neither can be created nor destroyed.
What caused the bang? 
... I assume that all the matter and energy converged at one point. A super critical mass developed and exploded, re-disbursing the matter. 

It's happened before and will happen again. The universe is a perpetually oscillating system."
[/N3k9Ni]

#3, always existed

[ExquisitExamplE]I think the Law of One has a fantastic description for the cosmology of the universe" Link www.lawofone.info...
[/ExquisitExamplE]

I'm not sure on this one so I'm putting it in #4

I have three #1s, two 2s, three 3s, and two 4s.
#1: KamaSutra, EnochWasRight, Aleister
#2: Alpha1, the Pharaoh
#3:  Jiggerj, LightAssassin, N3k9Ni, BogieSmiles
#4: Redoubt, ExquisitExamplE

Recap by contributor:
Redoubt: 4 Other
Jiggerj: 3 No beginning, always existed
Alpha1: 2 From nothingness
KamaSutra: 1 Creation or a creator
EnochWasRight: 1 Creation or a creator
Aleister: 1 Creation or a creator
ThePharaoh: 2 From nothingness
LightAssassin: 3 No beginning, always existed
N3k9Ni: 3 No beginning, always existed
ExquisitExamplE: 4 Other
BogieSmiles: And I should add my response: The universe has always existed, so that makes mine a #3.

I am opening up the tread for comments by stating that I think we are now discussing which of the four general explanations for the existence of the universe should be put foward as part of the so call ATS cosmology of the universe:
1) Creation or a creator
2) From nothingness 
3) No beginning, always existed
4) Other

Unless there is a ground swell of new contributions, it looks like we go with the explanation that the universe has always existed. Please comment and present arguments for or against this selection.

Sorry to have left you our Kdog1982. I was posting and checking my recap while you were posting. Are you a 1, 2, 3, or 4? .

Originally posted by BogieSmiles
Sorry to have left you our Kdog1982. I was posting and checking my recap while you were posting. Are you a 1, 2, 3, or 4?

.

I don't know.
There is a birth,a dying and a rebirth.
No continuity.
Maybe a genetic "memory" of what was and what it should be ,but nothing more.
Maybe it is what it should be.
Things come and go,life is lived and enjoyed.
The great recycling of the essence of life itself.

Originally posted by kdog1982

Originally posted by BogieSmiles
Sorry to have left you our Kdog1982. I was posting and checking my recap while you were posting. Are you a 1, 2, 3, or 4?

.

I don't know.
There is a birth,a dying and a rebirth.
No continuity.
Maybe a genetic "memory" of what was and what it should be ,but nothing more.
Maybe it is what it should be.
Things come and go,life is lived and enjoyed.
The great recycling of the essence of life itself.

That's a #4, I'd say

Think of it in these terms.
How many days of life do you have ?
1 or more.Hopefully a thousand,but you never know.
How many days does the earth have?
1 billion ,2,5 billion years before the sun destroys the earth?
Then what.

Enjoy what you have here and now.
Because it's a short journey.

Peace,
K

Alright, its official (unofficially); The first premise of the ATS community cosmology, the so called ATS Model of the Universe, is ...

The universe has always existed.

I'll leave that open for discussion for awhile, of course, but we must move on.

Now back to the OP where I said, "I’ll start with a contribution and a question: There was a Big Bang and everything we can now see in our Hubble view is connected to that event; true or conspiracy. Tell me what came before the Big Bang?

Surprisingly, no one used the word conspiracy in their response so I will take that to mean that Big Bang Theory is a generally accepted consensus here just like it is in the mainstream scientific community.

Based on that, I'll add the next prosed premise: We are in an expanding big bang arena and everything we can now see in our Hubble view is connected to our own Big Bang event. It is the consensus that the event probably happened about 14 billion years ago. Discuss and agree or disagree.

As for what came before the Big Bang, the consensus seems to be we have no way of knowing, so we will have to speculate or hypothesize if we are going to have a model that addresses all of the questions. I would like to suggest that there are a variety of ideas about preconditions to the Big Bang, including energy density fluctuations, super-symmetry between matter and anti-matter, a big crunch that banged in accord with as yet unknown quantum principles, colliding membranes, etc.

Who has a favorite, given the premise that there was in fact a Big Bang. And if you don't want the model to feature a big bang, now is the time to object and submit your argument for an alternative.

Bogie