Love vs Tyranny

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

1love
noun ˈləv
Definition of LOVE

a (1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests
b : an assurance of affection
2
: warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion
3
a : the object of attachment, devotion, or admiration

tyr·an·ny
noun ˈtir-ə-nē
plural tyr·an·nies
Definition of TYRANNY
1
: oppressive power ; especially : oppressive power exerted by government
2
a : a government in which absolute power is vested in a single ruler; especially : one characteristic of an ancient Greek city-state

So according to these definitions, we have an emotion of attachment, devotion, and/or admiration vs an oppressive power or a government in which absolute power belongs to a single individual.

So tell me, ATS: can love and tyranny be mutually inclusive? If not, where do you draw the line?

By your definitions there, there are millions of examples of people who have been "devoted" (love) to oppressive governments, so that's kind of a pointless question.

reply to post by adjensen

By your definitions there, there are millions of examples of people who have been "devoted" (love) to oppressive governments, so that's kind of a pointless question.

Not at all. We're humans - this question is in regards to a divine being. There's a whole different set of standards in play here.

Thanks for visiting.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The reason why I bring it up is because many people don't think God is a tyrant but is a loving, sovereign, and holy God/Father. So to those people the premise cannot be addressed as written.

So, you don't believe in the God of the Old Testament then. Because clearly, he was a tyrant.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

By your definitions there, there are millions of examples of people who have been "devoted" (love) to oppressive governments, so that's kind of a pointless question.

Not at all. We're humans - this question is in regards to a divine being. There's a whole different set of standards in play here.

Then your definitions are not appropriate -- I've never seen any indication that God is a tyrant, and comparing him to a "repressive government" doesn't make any sense, as government is a product of human beings, not of God.

Maybe you need to re-phrase your question?

reply to post by adjensen

By your definitions there, there are millions of examples of people who have been "devoted" (love) to oppressive governments, so that's kind of a pointless question.

Not at all. We're humans - this question is in regards to a god. There's a whole different set of standards in play here.

Thanks for visiting.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

By your definitions there, there are millions of examples of people who have been "devoted" (love) to oppressive governments, so that's kind of a pointless question.

Not at all. We're humans - this question is in regards to a god. There's a whole different set of standards in play here.

Then why are the definitions (and, by extension, standards,) those relating to human beings?

If you're honestly asking a question, not attempting to further a cause, you need to explain how God and a repressive government are the same thing, or else restate your question in a non-subjective form.

reply to post by adjensen


Wasn't the "Law" of the Old Testament a governmental law!? Nearly the entire Old Testament portrays God as a tyrant! The "God of Love" is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

Wasn't the "Law" of the Old Testament a governmental law!?

Of course not. What "government" did the Israelites have in the desert when Moses came down the mountain? Judaic Law is inherently religious and cultural in nature, not secular.

reply to post by adjensen


The Hebrews didn't have separation of Church and State. The Judaic Law was the law of the land. It was handed down by "God" and had to be followed, or be killed.

God's tyranny extended past the rule of mere Hebrews though:

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I'm assuming you have an opinion as well, which is why I'm asking you to explain to me why you hold that opinion. I posed a question, and I would appreciate an answer.

And I gave my opinion. I don't believe God is a tyrant. I believe He is sovereign, Holy, and righteous.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The reason why I bring it up is because many people don't think God is a tyrant but is a loving, sovereign, and holy God/Father. So to those people the premise cannot be addressed as written.

So, you don't believe in the God of the Old Testament then. Because clearly, he was a tyrant.

Straw man. I never stated I don't believe in the God of the OT. And I reject that He is tyrannical, so that's certainly not "clear", that's merely your prejudicial arbitrary conjecture.

My belief is that e is the Holy and Sovereign Creator of the universe. Which entitles Him to act as such.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

The Hebrews didn't have separation of Church and State. The Judaic Law was the law of the land. It was handed down by "God" and had to be followed, or be killed.

Who killed King David when he ruled Israel and committed adultery? Who killed King Solomon when he was worshiping those idols? The whole Old Testament is stuffed full of examples of people who flagrantly ignored the Law, it's the predominant theme of the whole text, for pete's sakes.

You have a very convenient read of the Bible, I'll give you that

It is not possible to be a tyrant and be loving.

If you meet a tyrannical god, run as far away as you can - otherwise you are AGREEING to be a SLAVE to such gods.

There are many disgusting parasitic gods feeding off of the worship of humans - their energy.

With love there are no threats for an endless, forevermore, eternal, "punishment".

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Whether or not this Old Testament, jealous and wrathful god has the right to inflict pain, suffering and death isn't really the question. Does this behavior exhibit an example of LOVE that we, as human's can emulate?

The answer is : "No."

When humans act that way they're judged mentally ill or sadistically criminal. There is no lesson of love in the requirement of death for breaking on of Yahweh's laws or for a neighboring city to worship a god of a different name.

A god that has to command people to love "him" is not a "god of love." That's tyranny.

reply to post by windword


He never commanded me to love Him.

I do because of who He is and what He has done in Christ.

But you're entitled to your opinion, as am I.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

The Hebrews didn't have separation of Church and State. The Judaic Law was the law of the land. It was handed down by "God" and had to be followed, or be killed.

Who killed King David when he ruled Israel and committed adultery? Who killed King Solomon when he was worshiping those idols? The whole Old Testament is stuffed full of examples of people who flagrantly ignored the Law, it's the predominant theme of the whole text, for pete's sakes.

You have a very convenient read of the Bible, I'll give you that

And likewise, why didn't He kill Adam and Eve when the violated just one simple command?

reply to post by adjensen


Who had the courage to gather a crowd to stone their King, who God put in place? It's up to God to punish the ones when God can't make others pick up stones.

Actually, the fact that the kings and rich guys got off easy, kinda tells me that the whole Old Testament god guy was a made up god guy anyway.

Do you really believe in a creator god appearing in a burning bush and flying around in a pillar of fire, striking people and cities down?

But if he did exist, he was a tyrant!

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Imagine if an army came and attacked your home town requiring that you either become a slave or die, now imagine if that army claimed to be acting out the will of god, would you believe it was right for them to do it? What if everyone in your family was killed except you, what would you think of said army?

It's easy for you to say he wasn't a tyrant because you weren't around when he did what he did, plus you have been tricked into believing the Hebrew army was god. It wasn't gods will, it was the will of the Hebrews that killed those people.

Power hungry people usually lie to justify what they do, in this case the Hebrews justified it by calling it god's will. It's not really that hard of a concept to grasp.

God's will back then is equivalent to the WMD's that were supposed to be in Iraq. It was an easy scapegoat for those in power to do what they wanted without any consequences.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You are most certainly commanded to "love God". Do I need to quote the scriptures to you?

Originally posted by windword
Actually, the fact that the kings and rich guys got off easy, kinda tells me that the whole Old Testament god guy was a made up god guy anyway.

Again, you really, really do not understand the Hebrew Bible.

Do you really believe in a creator god appearing in a burning bush and flying around in a pillar of fire, striking people and cities down?

What I believe or do not isn't germane to this discussion.

But if he did exist, he was a tyrant!

Hardly. A tyrant would never exercise mercy, and there are clear examples of God's mercy in the Bible.

With a superficial view of the Hebrew Bible, it is easy to draw all sorts of invalid conclusions about the nature of God. If you are truly interested in learning about the faith espoused in that text, I would suggest that, rather than making silly posts here, you find a Rabbi and ask him to address your concerns.