The Varieties of ATS Religious Experience; or, Variations on a Theme

reply to post by EnochWasRight

At times, I was moving away from God in doubt. At other times, those experiences then drew me back again. If we are honest with our walk in this life, we can each see this same process unfolding from our ability to master the laws of nature.

Awesome. Thanks for your contribution! There are so many really interesting people in this forum; I'm glad you chose to pitch in here.

reply to post by wildtimes

. . . your personal "Revealed God". I believe we each have our own private methods and means to arrive at some sort of reconciliation with the great unknown . . .

I think it starts with not being satisfied with being inferior. What I mean is that people can be better than where they started, or what just comes naturally.
We should think that God can make us better, and actually 'good', in terms of right and wrong.
I think people too much have ready excuses like "I'm only human . . so I should be expected to be sinful, right?"
You just diminished God by saying that and make Him powerless.
Better to say something like, "This is why God is around to help us, so we can be better, and God can really do it."
Otherwise we block out God and we reject His spirit and are then 'lost'.

reply to post by wildtimes


Hi Wild,
I am doing this both for you and myself so it will be long. I want to point out where Christ stops and Christianity begins. It is very subtle but also very profound. So profound that non Christians, although they may not change their mind will see that Christ is literally "ALL INCLUSIVE" gift, although few actually receive it, mainly because they have yet to believe in it.

Everyone knows Christianities tag phrase John 3:16. But what if the message behind what is being said is fundamentally different than the Christian view? Let us look to see what the bible itself says about John 3:16.

John3:16-21 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John:14-6 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

You can see that John 3:16, John 14:6 and Ephesians 2:8 when put together make a strong case for the Christian argument.

Try if you can at this time to clear your mind of Christianity, maybe impossible I know, because I am about to explain what these passage truly mean.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

John 3:19-21 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

The Christian Dogma, believe that Jesus is the son of God, death, resurrection, came in the flesh. Once you do that you receive the gift of Grace and become a Christian, assured that upon physical death you will be resurrected to heaven with Christ.

Luke 4:41 Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.

Here is where it gets complicated for the church. We know by the scripture that the demons believe in one God and they believe in the Christ. So they should also receive Grace and the promised resurrection because they have done what Christian Dogma says is required. If we assume that demons are not intended to be saved then there must be something more that we can do that they cannot.

So let us look at who/what Jesus claimed to be.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good.

John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1 John 4:16 God is love

The bible claims that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation and calls himself the light. Amazingly we find in Genesis 1:3 the first thing created by God is "light", before the natural light of the sun, moon and stars. God also refers to himself as light and Love. So if God is light and Jesus is light and God is love then Jesus is love. The light of this world is love. All love comes from God. No man may come to the father except through the love of this world. Jesus claims to be the love of this world, and I know this is crazy, he is and without him you cannot feel love. This is why so many of us our depressed and searching because we live without the light.

The bible explains this concept repeatedly throughout the OT and NT. It is said so many times that I don't need to quote scripture. What I am about to say should be so obvious but yet it alludes all of us. You fall away from God when you sin; God and sin are not compatible. God is light; in him there is no darkness. When you sin, you enter darkness; God does not dwell in darkness. When you repent you come back to God and thus he comes back to you.

The Israelites fell so far away from God they began practicing child sacrifice like the people around them had been doing. They were given over to slavery for their sin. When you sin God gives you over to your sin, he binds you to your sin. This is your punishment; you become addicted to the thing that destroys you. God is the one who bound you and therefore he is the only one who can free you. Even Israel was freed often times by the act of one righteous profit that God had raised up for them to lead them back to his love.

It is clear to see that God, Jesus, light, and love can be seen as one according to the bible, although how they are one may not be so clear but that matters very little if any.

What I have done is simply incerted the word love, where it should be from a concept standpoint. You can do this with most of the NT and the verses take on a deeper meaning. Please humor me with the read.

1 John 4
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from (love)God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of (love)God: Every spirit that acknowledges that (love)Jesus Christ has come in the (their) flesh is from (love)God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge (love)Jesus is not from (loved)God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

4 You, dear children, are from (love)God and have overcome (sin)them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from (love)God, and whoever knows (love)God listens to us; but whoever is not from (love)God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of (love)truth and the spirit of falsehood.

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for "LOVE COMES FROM GOD". EVERYONE WHO LOVES HAS BEEN BORN OF GOD AND KNOWS GOD. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because GOD IS LOVE. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only (love)Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his (love)Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since (love)God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen (love)God; but if we love one another, (loves)God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his (love)Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the (love)Father has sent his (love)Son to be the (love)Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that (love)Jesus is the Son of (love) God, (love)God lives in them and they in (love)God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love (love)God has for us.

(love)God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in (love)God, and (love)God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like (love)Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love (love)God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love (love)God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves (love)God must also love their brother and sister.

So far I know I have yet to reconcile the concepts in my argument so let me try.

John3:16-21 16 For (love)God so loved the world that he gave his one and only (love) Son, that whoever believes in (love)him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his (love)Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through(love) him. 18 Whoever believes in (love)him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe (in love) stands condemned already because they have not believed in (love)the name of God’s one and only (love)Son.

John:14-6 6 (love)Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through (love) me. 7 If you really know (love)me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of (love)God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

It is all reconciled here. Jesus is Love. More precisely he is the light of the world, He is the gift of God given freely to us. God's love has been freely given to us. There are only two types of people, Jews and Gentiles.

The promise is for all. Anyone who pursues love will find love. When you stop worrying about "A" name and start thinking about all the names of Christ, you realize his most important name is love.

If you stop worrying about the relationship of the trinity, of which I already showed that Jesus was created by God in Genesis 1:3, then you can open yourself up to other possibilities. The trinity is an attempt to define what it is supernatural, anything by definition that is supernatural, cannot be naturally explained. So any attempt to try is futile. Once you eliminate the "definition" you can start to see more clearly. You start to point out what they have in common and you marvel at the complexity rather than trying to define it.

The one unifying force is love. And by our own logic any two things that are "in love" are "in agreement". So you now can see why Jesus claims to be equal to God. He even considers it possible for us to become like him. He was there from the beginning; he has all understanding, so he can teach us how to love. This is what he came on earth to do. He came to teach us how to overcome our sin. His greatest work of symbolism is an actual symbol "the cross".

What is the promise of "the cross"

First we have the spiritual symbolism of death and rebirth. One must be born again to enter heaven. For Christ he turned the spiritual into the literal, so that we may believe. You see it is the resurrection we believe in. The resurrection of our spirits unto union with the father. We achieve this through the love that was given to us by the father.

This love came to us in the man named Jesus Christ. He taught "turn the other cheek", when it had been said an eye for an eye. He taught that to defeat sin you had to do it at its root. Even anger or a lustful look needs to be defeated before it takes hold and gives birth to sin.

He told us to pursue the father by handing over to him everything that we are, so that we may live according to his will. When you live for God's will your life is with 100% certainty being guided by God. When you live against his will than your life is 100% being guided by you. God and sin are not compatible; they do not reside in a man together. The light is always separated from the darkness.

This leaves us with a gaping hole in Christianity, who is baptized by the spirit and been promised eternal life and who has not? I have clearly presented the case against simply believe, and proven through scripture that faith is action. Belief and faith are two different actions that the church has smashed into one. This should not be.

Jesus came to free us from our sin. The bible says the one who is born again will sin no more. So why are there so many Christians that keep sinning? The answer is in Acts.

Acts 19:3 1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said to them, Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? And they said to him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said to them, To what then were you baptized? And they said, To John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John truly baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spoke with tongues, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve.

John 3:3-73 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

John 8:34, 36 Whosoever 34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

I John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Rom. 6:16-18 16 Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. 17 Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. 18 Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living.

I John 5:4 4 For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith.

So I posted the Acts verse first so you can see how confusing it really is for Christians. They believe in the Holy Spirit and they should because they are guided by him, but there is something missing. You see the second set of verses tell you what a man that is born again will be like. This is about as close to understanding by earthly terms that anyone could get.

The Natural mind cannot perceive a world without sin. The natural mind cannot perceive infinity. The natural mind cannot perceive God. So to the natural mind these verses appear supernatural and therefore impossible. The natural mind rejects the truth of the above quotes.

It is the spiritual mind that contemplates a world free of sin, and even imagines paths to achieve this "world peace", we might call it. You must accept these verses in spirit even before they make since to your mind. You must believe that you can overcome all obstacles in front of you. Jesus made the promise of Grace. What is Grace? God loves you, that is it. Do you see now that no one can do anything to deserve it? Creation itself should be proof that God loves you but many men live in fear.

So one of the promises of the cross is God loves you, EVERYONE, the same without showing favoritism. He loves Jews and Gentiles alike the promise is for everyone.

Put all these thoughts together, God loves everyone, Whoever seeks Gods love finds it, the natural mind and the spiritual mind, though seeing they did not see.

Now let me take you back to Acts, Read it again…...

According to the bible Christians have not yet believed in "being born again". Their natural minds have CREATED the notion of original sin and rejected the truth that we are here because of God's love for us. Not only are we here in his love but we are also here in his power so that we may become true son's of God and overcome our sin.

Because they have so twisted the word to fit with the "FALSE DOGMA OF ORIGINAL SIN" they have lost the ability to be born again.

The bible predicts even this will hapen.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

The message of the cross is the salvation from your sin. Freedom to love God, knowing that he first loved you, even when you were in sin. The call is to become sons of God, "like Christ". In order to achieve this we must overcome sin, but we must believe we can. Anyone who does not believe they can over come sin stands condemend already to commit sin. Sin is the punishment for disobeying God. Repent and you will overcome sin this is the promise of the cross.

To those who are waiting for thier death for the resurection the message of spiritual rebirth is foolishness. If you can accept spiritual rebirth, then you should be able to find it.

Wild,
As you know with any spiritual experience it will be unique, undeniable to that person, yet improvable to the rest of the world. All we have is faith; just realize that all I have shown you is love.

Spiritual rebirth is real. An indescribable freedom is real. The promise of immortality is real.

I have nothing to gain by lying to you. If it still sounds like I'm trying to convert you fine. But spiritual rebirth is real and maybe it can be found somewhere else, but I promise you I found it, or to say it more correctly it found me.

I present to you the bible the way I have been taught by God to read it. I cannot prove to you that the spirit of God is alive in me and providing you with these interpretations. But if these interpretations are not from God, where are they from? I am clearly claiming that God is giving me this. So either God is in me or I'm crazy because you can't find any of my interpretation anywhere else. I am so connected to love right now that if I am crazy I pray to God that I never get better.

Grace - the love of God given to all freely. In Grace there is forgiveness.

Forgiveness - Only understood upon repentance. Gift for complete repentance the Holy Spirit

Holy Spirit - Spiritual reborn, with the Holy Spirit living in you as your guide towards love.

Originally posted by wildtimes
I don't have answers, but I can't run out of questions either.

Yep ... ditto.

I was still expected to recite how unworthy and how faulty I was, week after week - failure upon failure.

- It's called 'control by guilt'. Organized religions and cults use it.
- However, humble acknowledgement of how small we are compared to God is spiritually good.

I am also a sociologist -

My degree is psychology.

religion and its accoutrements are some of the most fascinating of human phenomena to study. I want to know what makes people tick.

EXACTLY. I feel the same way. If you learn where they are coming from in their religious beliefs, you can understand a whole lot about a person. I totally hear you ...

I want to inquire to ATS members at large as to your personal "Revealed God".

- Raised Catholic. Was Third Order Franciscan for a few years. Then became Third Order Carmelite for about ten years.
- Grew up in a haunted house. Every house I've been in has been haunted.
- Always been sensitive to the 'paranormal' or metaphysical .. whatever you want to call it.
- I was a Chaplain Assistant for 5 years in the US Army. Worked with people of all faiths. Everyone got along great and there were no religion wars.
- Got stuck living in Alabama for 9 years. Watched the different evangelical protestant groups telling everyone that everyone else but them were going to hell. I thought .. how absurd.
- Like I said ... 3rd order Carmelite for 10 years. But also was open to Buddhist studies. Found out that a lot of what the Buddhists believe about Karma etc, are similar to what the Catholic saints had to say. Also open to reincarnation because of personal experience with reoccurring dreams of past lives, etc etc
- Now I see suffering everywhere. It's not a 'why me' thing .. it's a 'why everyone' thing ... And I get ticked and wonder why God makes people and leaves them to suffer. I'm still in the 5 stages of grief over my health. I keep thinking that I'm done with it and then I get ticked off at God again. I went from being all halleluhah and praise God ... to ... we are just His slaves and I'm stuck with whatever He sends.

Paranormal/metaphysical experiences ... I'll keep most of those to myself. Over the years, there have been MANY. I have actually had the Divine touch my soul ... more than once ... and it wasn't during any halleluhah prayer service and I wasn't whipped up into a frenzy. I KNOW there is a God .. I KNOW the saints are alive and active but we just USUALLY can't see them ... I KNOW the dead are also alive and active ... I know these things from experience.

I no longer believe that God or the afterlife are what 'they' are telling us.
They are there .. but they are different from anything we know.
My beliefs are fluid based upon my experiences.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I think it starts with not being satisfied with being inferior. What I mean is that people can be better than where they started, or what just comes naturally.
We should think that God can make us better, and actually 'good', in terms of right and wrong.
I think people too much have ready excuses like "I'm only human . . so I should be expected to be sinful, right?"
You just diminished God by saying that and make Him powerless.

Okay, that's your ideology. Thanks!

So, how did you get from childhood to now, jmd?
(Thanks for chiming in, I've wondered what you were up to. )

reply to post by sacgamer25


Hi, sac. Very glad you joined in....
thanks, I'll be reading your post over a few times.

reply to post by FlyersFan

... I know these things from experience.

I no longer believe that God or the afterlife are what 'they' are telling us.
They are there .. but they are different from anything we know.
My beliefs are fluid based upon my experiences.

I so appreciate you joining in here, FF. Thanks so much! I will take some time to read your post again, but your thinking does resonate with mine.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Hey, sac!

I present to you the bible the way I have been taught by God to read it. I cannot prove to you that the spirit of God is alive in me and providing you with these interpretations. But if these interpretations are not from God, where are they from? I am clearly claiming that God is giving me this.

So either God is in me or I'm crazy because you can't find any of my interpretation anywhere else. I am so connected to love right now that if I am crazy I pray to God that I never get better.

A very poetic and happy attitude!
But, sac, how did you arrive at this point? Not that I don't appreciate your input, but.....how did you get there?

reply to post by LazarusTsiyr


He who seeks finds.
Knock and the door will be opened.

I grew up in a Christian home, accepted Jesus at a young age and attended Baptist and Assembly of God churches over the years.

I spent my late teens and most of my twenties having the time of my life (on my own selfish terms) both in my personal life (singing in a rock band on the weekends), and also holding a corporate job with lots of perks, travel and fun (at that time, fun included a lot of wining and dining, emphasis on the wining) while meeting some interesting and influential people along the way.

Although I wasn't exactly living my life on God's terms, I never doubted that he was watching over me from all of the signs that he continued to point out to me. However, somewhere along the way, God decided that living on my terms wasn't enough and the mentality of "once saved always saved" needed an overhaul. All of it came to a screeching halt when I got pregnant at thirty.

I can't even begin to describe the fear and anxiety that followed. I couldn't imagine raising a child on my own nor the impact it would have on my child. Having watched a couple of my friends raise children on their own made me think I was bound for a lifetime of punishment by hardship, poverty and struggle for my sins. Needless to say, I was remorseful and surrendered it all to God. I only felt better after a dream of Jesus telling me that as long as I put God's will first in my life, that he would take care of the rest so that I wouldn't struggle. And I didn't.

I focused on God and raising my child instead of my own selfish desires, all of which has been more rewarding and brought more blessings into my life than I could have possibly imagined, above and beyond just being a parent.

I have never dabbled in another religion because I've never felt the need to. Regardless of my imperfections, God has always proven to be by my side and I've never felt abandoned. There may have been a period in my life where I felt like some of my prayers weren't being answered, but those prayers were selfish in nature because I wanted my way first and God's second. I thank God for teaching me priorities, patience and unselfishness through being his child, a parent in my own right and now a wife.

reply to post by FlyersFan

My beliefs are fluid based upon my experiences.

Yeah. That I totally understand.....
I'm so thankful that you have shared that with us. Very extraordinary journey.

reply to post by Deetermined


Very poignant. Thanks so much. I think having and raising a child is one of the most empowering and soul-focused experiences on earth. The incarnation of divine love....

reply to post by Klassified


I know you are not turning back but let me give you this in defense of the bible. The bible says that we are all one in Christ. Galatians 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

So what you say about us collectively is true and agrees with the bible. Here is what the bible thinks about our capabilities, if we ever were to become united and work together.

We have missed the point of this message for thousands of years.

Genesis 11
Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel—because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

Most people don't appreciate the beauty of this passage. Most people perceive this passage as a testimony to an evil God, or they go as far as to say look God is admitting that we will become like God. Then they go around either teaching fear or some crazy "I am God Enlightenment".

The passage is a test, one that we were designed to pass. The test, can we come back together as one man and build a world that is the best for that one man. Right now we are a bunch of individual, pursing advancement for personal gain. What we need to realize is God has already told us that nothing would be impossible for us if we pass this test.

If we fail we destroy ourselves, if we succeed we save ourselves. Do you see weather we destroy ourselves our save ourselves it is something that we all live through together. Because we are one, whether we like it or not.

This is the challenge for all men to come together so that truly nothing will stand in our way. If God is for us who can be against us.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Who is "they" in the two following statements FF?

I no longer believe that God or the afterlife are what 'they' are telling us.

They are there .. but they are different from anything we know.

No ulterior motive. A sincere question.

reply to post by sacgamer25

The passage is a test, one that we were designed to pass. The test, can we come back together as one man and build a world that is the best for that one man. Right now we are a bunch of individual, pursing advancement for personal gain. What we need to realize is God has already told us that nothing would be impossible for us if we pass this test.

From where I'm sitting, the only test is the one of denial. Deny our imperfections, deny our knowledge, and deny our power. Deny everything that makes us individual and unique, and embrace everything that makes us one mass entity born to serve the lord. Forget being a strong capable human being who can do or be anything he/she chooses to be - you are destined to be the servant of your god, and if you choose to exercise your free will in any other way, you will face dire consequences.

Our only test is the one of denial. This world was made for a human experience. It is perfect for experiencing everything of what it is to be a weak, ignorant, finite being. But we must cling to our most basic nature. We cannot grow our own wings. We cannot fly, for that is against the wishes of our lord and king. We must always, always, remain in the nest. Everything else is forbidden.

Technically, 95% of the human race is damned. Look what you did, "God". You've condemned the majority of your children. Are you pleased with your work? Is this what you wanted? I want the freedom to choose my own destiny and not be punished for it. I didn't choose to be born, can I at least have that much? Even if it means serving my own happiness instead of yours? Or will you hate me for that?

Then hate me. I would much rather be hated by you and be happy than hate myself to please you.

reply to post by sacgamer25

An interesting take on that passage. I did a teaching similar to this many years ago. God wasn't against them coming together as one, but rather he was against their purpose. Pride and rebellion.Take away the pride and rebellion against God, and they would have been unstoppable, because God would have blessed their endeavors.

There was more to it than that, but that was the crux.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Then hate me. I would much rather be hated by you and be happy than hate myself to please you.

Just out of curiosity, AfterInfinity, what is your definition of happiness? What would it take?

reply to post by wildtimes


I was raised a Jesus believing non church going Christian. My mother did not force anything on me nor did she allow me to be baptized in water, as she felt that religions should be a personal choice.

I never embraced the church and always knew that there was something fundamentally right about Jesus but something wrong with what they were saying.

About 5 years ago when our daughter was 2 my wife met some friends in college. They were into getting together for bible studies so we would hang out with them weekly. Most of what they said sounded so right, but their remained the fundamental flaw of Judgment and separation that they so carelessly accept by claiming some sort of "election", even though they have no idea what "election" means.

I drive a lot for my job so I decided to go to Barnes and Nobel's and buy the bible on CD. I was determined to listen to the whole thing at least once. I drive enough that I was able to get through the entire thing in about 2 months. After listening to it once, I went through kind of an auto pilot mode of listening to the NT over and over again.

For the next I would say 2 years I tried to prove the bible wrong. I looked into all the science and the creation account. I looked into every contradiction, both those that come from outside the church and those that come directly from the church. What I found in each case is the science against the bible cannot be consider fact, and the contradiction from the church appeared to be poor interpretation. Although at this time, I could not understand the scripture completely I could see that what I was reading did not correspond to what the church was saying.

About the time my daughter turned 5 was when my life changed. Once I realized I could not disprove the bible I decided to accept it as truth, now based on research and questioning along with a bit of faith.

Understand that for 3 years 90% of the time I was driving I was listening to the NT. I probably listened to the entire NT more than 25 times. It seems like the same time I accepted that the bible could be true and therefore probably was, was the same time I was at a very low point in my life.

God had tested me to help a widow and an orphan and I moved them into my house. I had given up myself because I had reached the bottom. Everything, as if directed by the hand of God, had come together in a perfect storm where I felt my only remaining option was to give myself completely to God. Ready to face whatever world he had for me.

But I was still skeptical. I wanted that ever elusive "PROOF", that is when I began looking into the gifts from God. For some reason at this same time I had come to the conclusion that God indeed was offering a promise to us to free us from sin. I had no idea how/what this meant but it felt like love, so I believed. So I decided to look into the gifts. Paul seem to be pushing me to pursue tongues and interpretation in his message, especially the interpretation piece.

So I prayed to God for the gift of tongues and interpretation. That night I was mediating for a few min about what I prayed for. At this time I was ready for any answer. Maybe, foreign language, glossolia, was open to anything.

Then a phrase and a realization came to me. I uttered a 3 word phrase that I used to Google translate and one of the words was father. The other two had escaped me and I could not recall them enough to get them spelled correctly for Google translate. But the fact that a three word phrase popped into my head in a language that I had not known and the one word that I could remember clearly is father, just didn't seem like a coincidence. The realization was that Paul was writing in tongues.

Tongues is the language of God and Angels, we are speaking in tongues when we are talking about spiritual concepts that are too complex for the natural mind.

So two kinds of spiritual "tongues" was revealed to me. I received the gift I was promised both the gift to speak of the spiritual things in the bible and also the gift to interpret those spiritual messages that were coming from God, from inside me, but most definitely not from me.

It was not until this point that scripture finally started to become clear. For 3 years I pursued God and during the pursuit everything pointed to God loves you let him help you. But I refused like a stubborn child to just obey the will of the father and instead tried to prove I can handle this on my own. I have pretty much be on fire for God and love for the last 2 years now.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is real as well as the gifts of the spirit. One must only believe to receive.

Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Who is "they" in the two following statements FF?

I no longer believe that God or the afterlife are what 'they' are telling us.

They are there .. but they are different from anything we know.

Sorry .. I should'a been more clear.

No longer believe that God or the afterlife are what 'they' are telling us. That would be the religions around the world that each teach something different about Who God is and what to expect in the afterlife. I no longer think any of them really know for sure.

'They are there, but they are different from anything we know .... that would be God and the afterlife .. they are there ... they are real ... but they are different than what the religions are all telling us.

That's my experience up to now.

Side note .. I mentioned that I get ticked off at God. I'm trying not to ... but when I see all the suffering in the world I get angry. It doesn't do any good getting angry so I'm trying to stop ... but it's really hard to have blind trust when all I see is a whole lot of suffering ...

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Technically, 95% of the human race is damned.

I don't know where you're getting that number from, but Christianity (and Christ-centered tangents,) at least has a spectrum:

1) Jehovah's Witnesses -- next to no one gets saved (144,000 in total)
2) Typical Reformed theology -- few are predestined for salvation (that might be your 95% number)
3) Typical mainstream Protestantism -- Christians with a professed faith in Christ are all saved
4) Roman Catholic -- anyone who hasn't intentionally rejected Christ may be saved
5) Mormons -- everyone is saved, married Mormons are exalted into godhood
6) Universalists (Unitarians, Quakers, a few others) -- everyone is saved