The Devil: Evil or God's Will?

This post is stemming from a previous conversation in another topic.

Christians have instilled a fear within society of the "evil being" known as Satan. There is a long story to go along with it, about how Satan defied God, wanted to be on the same playing field as him, and was cast down to earth for his aspirations. For his (punishment?) deeds he was given the Earth and was told "Do what you will" essentially. This is the belief that is expressed within the Christian Holy Book: The Bible.

It is within that book that it is also detailed what acts would be considered evil in God's eyes, such as turning from him, not loving your neighbour as yourself, homosexual fornication, menstrual cycle coitus, I could go on and on.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Bible never actually says that Lucifer itself is evil. The word Satan in Hebrew means "the opposer", the word Lucifer means (heylel) "morning star" or "light bringer". Yet the Bible tells it's followers to not live in the dark, and to live in the light. Contradiction, anyone?

The Bible says:

all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Dan. 4:35)

So, anything that Lucifer does must be within God's Will, and if that is so, then it comes from God. So in all the lamenting that the Christians do about what Satan is doing, who is worshipping Satan, etc; they rarely stop to think that it is actually their God that is doing it. The story of Moses chronicles that God HIMSELF hardened Pharaoh's heart which in turn brought devastating consequences upon his land. Satan was never mentioned once in that story, it was all God, playing games with the people.

So, one must ask themselves, is Lucifer truly evil, or is it all a way to test your loyalty to Jehovah (which meansthe unchanging, eternal, self-existent God, which means he is still the same God that tortured Egypt)?

reply to post by Daeobi


Never read the bible ever. does the bible actually use the word "Lucifer" or was this term injected in later period rewrites of bible?

reply to post by Daeobi


Satan has been allowed to go around testing men. He is not an opposing force to God.

The Koranic perspective might be helpful in understanding this.

After Satan was expelled, he vowed to mislead men. God responded by saying He would fill hell with everyone who follows Satan. Islam teaches that Satans only power over us is to whisper suggestions into our minds that cause us to go astray. So a man, by choosing to act on those Satanic whispers actually plays an active role in letting Satan mislead him.

reply to post by Daeobi


My first post that is Illuminati. Meaning this is how they talk to us. Only I'll make it a little more clearer.

Batman is so good at fighting crime that eventually the fear to break the law will infect the whole city. Bruce Wayne loves to parade around the city at night as batman. He's addicted to the alter ego that is the dark knight. The Joker is batman's most feared bad guy. He's a maniacal sociopath maniac. The defeat of the joker takes batman to heights of messiah. Giving the damage that Joker is capable of.

The joker has henchmen such as Clay face and 2 face. But how can this be when batman is so good at what he does that no one wants to break the law? Conspiracy?

Yes this is the paradigm of god/satan. See if you can figure this out. Give yourself a chance I'll be back to correct you.

First, yes the word Lucifer was used in the Bible, I believe only once.

Second, I was very aware of that was what happened, thank you for expounding upon it. That was where I was going with "are the acts themselves evil, or is it Satan who is". I should also note that I am not a Christian who is confused about his faith, or lack thereof, I am simply presenting a thesis on what the Christians may be misinterpreting in their own Holy Book.

I will say that you never drew a conclusion though.

Originally posted by metalholic
reply to post by Daeobi

 

The joker has henchmen such as Clay face and 2 face. But how can this be when batman is so good at what he does that no one wants to break the law? Conspiracy?

Yes this is the paradigm of god/satan. See if you can figure this out. Give yourself a chance I'll be back to correct you.

It all seems like (if any of it is true) a cosmic game, we must remember that Batman is a comic book character created by people who would be out of a job if Batman did what he set out to do.

However; you bring an interesting thought to the forefront of my mind. Without good, there is not evil, and vice versa, if there is a divine being capable of orchestrating a type of plot (like a cosmic Author of some sort) than it would be very typical of that being to establish a balance between two opposing forces. It is not my place to say if God would be the good or evil one, however, it is apparent that if he is the "good" force he is corrupt in many ways (unlike Batman he has no rules placed on himself).

Thing with the Bible is that its missing a few chapters that deal with the subject of reincarnation.

There is no good or evil per say. There is however karmic debt!

It is pretty plain from the way Scripture talks about Satan that he is evil. Just because it doesn't say those three words, "Satan is evil", doesn't mean he isn't evil. Jesus called him a murderer, Isaiah 14:13 says he will try to place himself above God, he was the one who tempted Eve, he tried to get Jesus to sin all the time (Hebrews 4:15), and all the many other things which make him worthy of being thrown into the lake of fire which is designated specifically for him and his angels.

Satan is the father of lies. When he was cast from Heaven to earth, God created man. Satan's number one priority is to corrupt the human race to the point where nobody trusts God's laws, just like he did to 1/3 of the angels. If Satan could have gotten Jesus to sin, the plan of salvation would have been defeated, and the world would forever belong to him. Jesus came to earth to defeat Satan's plan, and provide a way for humans to overcome sin.

Matthew 12:24-27(KJV)
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

Jesus plainly states in the above verses that evil and good cannot work together in the sense that the OP is referring to.

Satan wants to destroy the souls of humans, while God wants to save the souls of humans. This is a war, not a casual experiment just to test the faith of human beings. It is God's will that people come to Him through His Son, not that we should be put through agony just for His own pleasure. When this world comes to an end, the people who have been subjected to sin, yet overcame through the blood of Jesus Christ, will be the perfect replacements for the angels who were deceived by Satan; we will have been subjected to sin and temptation all our lives, yet will still stay on the right path. This will ensure that iniquity will not arise a second time in the new Heaven and new Earth.

2 Peter 3:9(KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

ETA:

When the Bible says that God hardened the Pharaoh's heart, it is not implying that God Himself actually did this to him. What it is implying is that the love, light, etc., of God and His Spirit were in opposition to what the Pharaoh's mindset was:

Exodus 5:2(KJV)
2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the Lord, neither will I let Israel go.

When the Holy Spirit touched Pharaoh, his sinful tendencies caused him to react defiantly. It's almost like this: if someone says "My friend made me mad today", that doesn't mean the friend actually went into the person's brain and changed caused the chemical reaction or whatever to happen in order for that person to become angry. It simply means what that friend did or said was something the person didn't agree with, so they became mad.

reply to post by jeramie


"Satan is the father of lies"

One Mans lie is another Mans truth. Its all just shades of grey(Not the book)!

"Satan wants to destroy the souls of humans"

You cannot destroy anything without creating something, so this seems counterproductive does it not?

Originally posted by Daeobi
So, one must ask themselves, is Lucifer truly evil?

Your thread is absolute proof of that fact.

He has COMPLETELY deceived you.

Last time I checked, deceiving, lying, stealing, killing and destroying IS in fact evil.

Satan rebelled against God and leads others into rebellion, lies, sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, selfish ambition, dissensions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and enslavement to all other sins.

And you are asking is Lucifer truly EVIL?

Whiskey tango FOXTROT...

"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44

reply to post by Daeobi


I'll give you a star for trying. I'm gonna start with others to work you into it check this out. Comic books are keys to understanding god and satan I'll even include a mythological story here to prove it. First you must know that I'm taking something that isn't real and givng it a very logical real twist watch.

Superman is an alien from outer space who fights crime. His nemesis is an alien from outer space who wants to conquer the universe. 2 different beings? Or 2 different personalities? 1 mind with 2 paths he could take?

Hulk is a super human accident who is the alter ego to the genius Bruce Banner. His nemesis the Leader is a super genius accident. Hulk looks at Bruce as a puny human and so they constantly battle over the same mind. Yet the hulk's nemesis is the leader who happens to be a genius just like Bruce.

Same guy?

Batman is so good and would be so feared that the only way he could ever have job security is if this happened. Batman needs a bad guy to keep him in a job. So he invents the Joker. Years of battling crime and becoming addicted to the batman persona. The post traumatic stress of seeing his parents died as a kid is finally catching up to him. So he channels all this into the joker thus creating the best bad guy ever for the bat.

Batman has friends in high places like harvey dent 2 face. 2 face is so good at blinding in with different groups of people you can call him clay face. Because he adpats to social circles. When joker is out causing crime without the bat on his trail that's bruce.

When you see bat and joker going at it that's dent dressed as joker. Bat breaks him out of jail. Joker escapes is what everyone gets told. Yeah how would he really escape the asylum? He couldn't.

Hes batman's security blanket. Harley Quinn is just catwoman. Get it?

God wanted to see mankind become intelligent and leave the garden and gain free will. But he'd already set rules in place for them to remain dumb.So he tricked them into eating the fruit. Because this was a rule breaker he blamed it on the serpent. His alter ego.

When he needs to push mankind in a certain way to get an agenda done and it's against somethign he already put in place. Blame it on an anti-christ or a satan.

At the end of the day they are the same guy. Jesus and the Anti-Christ are the same guy.

Here's the mythological story to tie it all in.

Odin goes into sleeps right? Our existence can be said to be the dreamer's kingdom. When you dream at night your own mind creates a world for you to walk around in.

With that said take Loki and Thor. Thor looks out for the kingdom while Loki look sto take it over. Imagine that the universe we are in is created by someone whose asleep. The dreamer has to be walking around.

Say the dreamer knows he's the creator. Do I protect my kingdom or do I take it over? Or Both? Odin asleep is Loki and Thor at the same time. When they fight it's the protector fighting off the tyrant!

Get it?

Man seems to have the capacity for both great good and Evil. Why do we feel the need to assign blame to a semi-omnipotent entity who at the end of the day is on a lead?

When will we grow some balls and take responsibility for our own actions on this plane of existence!

reply to post by jeramie

I find your post rather ignorant and it shows that you only read the verses of the Bible that suit you. Again, I will state for the sake of proving my above point: the Bible says that nothing can happen outside of God's Will.

I will also point out all the times God has taken to being "a murderer", "a liar", and a being that is sadistic in nature.

While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother’s house: 1:19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

God killed Job's family. - MURDERER over a BET with Satan, at least an accomplice, he told Satan to torture Job.

1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

God is a sadistic liar as well:

"After these things God tested Abraham, and said to him, ‘Abraham!’ And he said, ‘Here am I.’ He said, ‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you’." (Genesis 22:1-2, R.S.V.)

Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son; blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” So Abraham returned to his young men, and they rose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.

If he was all knowing he would know that Abraham would have done this but still put him through the torture of this, and lied to him.

And then finally the story of Moses, and how God made Pharaoh say no to Moses on multiple occasions, bringing on much pain for the people of Egypt. This is not a loving God, this is not a God who seeks only good and love. This is a God that is just as sick as Satan.

reply to post by metalholic


I didn't think your point would be that simple to be honest, I apologize. I was already under that assumption when God proclaimed that he created everything.

God is in everything, the good, the evil, it is a cosmic case of Dissociative Identity Disorder.

reply to post by Daeobi


The point I'm making here is though the belief that satan and god are the same deity is in everything. Skeletor and He man are the same guy.

Every cartoon where there is a main hero and a main nemesis and then say the hero works for a king or some leader. The leader is the representation of god the hero is jesus and the bad guy is satan.

But they all work for the same purpose. Take the kkk for example. The government needed people to get on one side or the other when it came to racism. So they needed to make a big issue out of the kkk. The kkk was needed without no one would have picked sides.

If no one picked sides the issue wouldn't have been handled. Sure it still exists. But is it really a national or big social problem anymore? It's dieing right?

The kkk was that poster boy racism needed to get public attention. People chose and they had their maverick.

God works this way.

reply to post by metalholic


Did you ever notice that batman's symbol is a bat with a sun in the background? Joker's lauginh gas is green like farts.

What are they saying here then?

Batman is a nocturnal sun god who laughs at toilet humor?

reply to post by Manunnaki

"Thou shalt not take the name of the Bat in vain."

On a different note:

Some people on this thread (and many others) should actually READ the book,
instead of just rehashing stuff they have been TOLD about it.
Lucifer and Satan, two totally different entities.
And no, i WON´T provide any links to this,
It´s in the book, check it out and learn something if you don´t believe me.

The devil and god are one in the same, just described from different perspectives.

Let's assume here the bible is true. Passover. If an account of passover was written from the view of an egyptian that just had their firstborn child murdered, because of a psychopathic god feeling the need to show off, they would likely say it was the work of evil.

reply to post by Daeobi


The will of God is to give and receive. He never takes anything that is not, then, given back multiplied. This is continually the message in the Bible. The mystery of the Angel of Light and Angel of Darkness was revealed in one of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Until I posted it on ATS, you couldn't find a complete copy. Here it is.

Text belonging to the Instructor

As for the Passage in Daniel 4, you need to see what was taken and what was restored. This is the key context to seeing why the verses in the middle explains that God can take what he chooses. He gives it all; he owns it all; he is the Spirit we use as consciousness and nothing we think we own is ours until it is given in glory. We are possessed now. Not so after salvation. At that time, we will possess what we are given. Right now, it is on loan.

31 Even as the words were on his lips, a voice came from heaven, “This is what is decreed for you, King Nebuchadnezzar: Your royal authority has been taken from you. 32 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like the ox. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes.”

33 Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like the ox. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird.

34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever.

His dominion is an eternal dominion;
his kingdom endures from generation to generation.
35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?”
36 At the same time that my sanity was restored, my honor and splendor were returned to me for the glory of my kingdom. My advisers and nobles sought me out, and I was restored to my throne and became even greater than before. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble.

reply to post by Daeobi


Just like 1 Kings 17, this is a picture of a recurring theme in the Bible. Let me explain.

Daniel 4

31 Even as the words were on his lips, a voice came from heaven, “This is what is decreed for you, King Nebuchadnezzar: Your royal authority has been taken from you. 32 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like the ox. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes.”

----The 'secret' of sorts in the Bible is that "you must be born again." Some are born in to rulership and some into common standing. When it says that the KING will be driven from the people and will live with animals, this shows he will be reduced to one of the beasts (humans acting like animals). Until he is involved into the wilderness (Scattered around seven times into other lives), he will not return to rule until he acknowledges God. Read my thread on involution and evolution: Involution Evolution

33 Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like the ox. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird.

-----This is a picture of rotting in the grave. The Dew of Heaven are the droplets that fall, then evaporate when the sun rises again to distill the water back to unity. It's the picture of ONE soul descending into many in the wilderness to learn. Again, involution and evolution of the KING. Who is the KING? That's ADAM, the ONE soul of mankind. Who is the heel on either side of this loaf? ADAM, or the risen Christ. This was never about one KING. Then again, it can only be about ONE king. The Son is being raised in the wilderness. That's all of us together. As 1 Corinthians states, "17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf."

ALL stories in the Bible are written to ONE Soul being raised. We, who are many, are one body, for we are ALL ONE loaf.

34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever.

-----Where do we find this in Isaiah? See if you catch the DEW in this passage.

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

How about JOB 19

25 I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.

--------DID YOU catch that? "Since the error is in him." Who? ADAM, the heel of the loaf. Careful what you say about the KING. The Son is being raised and YOU are that King. So am I. So are we. Judgment comes to those who fail to acknowledge the true Sovereign while in the wilderness.

I know a secret about the Bible. I have been relating this secret for years now. Few listen, yet you can read it progressively from my threads and posts. You just showed me an area of scripture that reveals it yet again. The same story can be show from so many passages. Read 1 Kings 17, then go to Matthew 3. You can mirror the same truth of Baptism (Immersion into the water) across the lives of one SOUL that is two persons revealing ONE truth. Elijah and John the Baptist. What were they trying to tell us as the future kings of the Earth?

Simple. Acknowledge the true KING first. That's the heel that crushes the head of Satan. Christ is Adam on either side of the loaf.

Genesis 3

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

edit on 2-2-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)