ATF seizes a shipment of 30 'dangerous' weapons.

reply to post by txinfidel


No, there isn't. Sorry but I"ve been playing airsoft since I was in high school, and served in the Marines afterwards. I owned several of the full-metal varients of airsoft guns. The only similarity between the real thing and the airsoft is cosmetic. Saying you can put real-steel internals into an airsoft guns case is the same as saying you can put a guns internals into a metal box. Can it be done? Sure. Would it be safe/work? No. You'd most likely lose a hand if not your life. The mechanics of how a real gun work and an airsoft gun work are TOTALLY different. Yes, some airsoft guns use a few "real-steel" parts, such as AK foregrips, stocks, etc. But thats just to make it more realistic, purely cosmetic. Nothing internal. If you believe otherwise, you are totally ignorant of airsoft, real weapons, or both.

reply to post by JJRichey


You are 100% right. I wonder how high the chamber pressure is for a .556. I bet it is a little higher then a airsoft.



I really cant believe this argument is still going on.

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by cosmicexplorer
Im saying taking parts only from an airsoft gun to use in a real gun. Yes you can. It may not last long but you could use the parts....even if they arent perfectly to spec you could modify them. I don't see what the benefit would be by using crappy plastic and cheap metal but may be a cheap fix or help avoiding registering the lower. And felons have been pretty resourceful on getting weapons of any kind. I agree with you that most are gotten from the black market, but to think they haven't been creative in navigating the law is very naive.

Im not saying take an airsoft gun...toss in a couple real parts and bam you got a weapon!

Oh I didn't clarify either...im refering to parts of the lower receiver only...I will try to consult with a few friends and learn the actual parts they believe can be used...as ive never done this myself...if I remember right its something with the lower receiver and t would still need some sort of modification from someone who knew a decent amount. But hey if helps you avoid registering it....why not...even if it only fired a couple rounds before jamming or breaking.

edit on 2-2-2013 by cosmicexplorer because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-2-2013 by cosmicexplorer because: i type like an elephant in heat

edit on 2-2-2013 by cosmicexplorer because: more typos

edit on 2-2-2013 by cosmicexplorer because: (no reason given)

If it were possible, it would be done, and it would be done all the time.

The ATF seizing this single shipment happened over two years ago, since that happened, and this idiotic assertion was made, i have not seen a SINGLE report of it having ever been done.

i own a top of the line Gas-Blowback Airsoft M4...and i am familiar with the internals of a REAL M4...i can tell you, with very comfortable level of certainty that it is not possible to build an AR-15 or M4 on an airsoft GBB lower...

I work in law enforcement....we received an intel briefing on how people were attempting this....and it was one or two years ago....a lot could have changed since then with law and maybe even how air soft is made. I think the ATF's statement of how "easy" it would be is absurd. If I gave a lower receiver to an engineer and said ill give you one million dollars to take this lower using anything else you need necessary and make it work with a real upper they would solve the problem. You can make a lower out of of wood, or anything to some extent. Sure its absolutely retarded to do it...and that's why it never took off...cause of the amount of knowledge work and money it would take to try to make it work only to have it not last. Since we have had this briefing I haven't heard a thing about it again until this ATF stuff. The idea behind it was for felons to try and navigate laws by not having to register the lower. Give me some time to research this a little more and see If I can private message you what was originally sent to me..and let me talk with some of our armorers too. I'll try to get you the exact specifics..and honestly I'd like to see a video of one firing myself. All im saying is it possible...but i think it would be very very difficult.

for ALL you folk that say it can be done, PLEASE show us a video that has one converted into a real firearm, then shoot same firearm

Ok, so lets entertain the possibility (highly unlikely) that it can be done. You're going through a lot of trouble for a Lower Receiver. Just think about this, The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms just confiscated 30 toys that may be able to be used for parts on real guns. They did that, instead of going after REAL ILLEGAL GUNS! Our Tax Dollars at work everybody.

Originally posted by cosmicexplorer
I work in law enforcement....we received an intel briefing on how people were attempting this....and it was one or two years ago....a lot could have changed since then with law and maybe even how air soft is made. I think the ATF's statement of how "easy" it would be is absurd. If I gave a lower receiver to an engineer and said ill give you one million dollars to take this lower using anything else you need necessary and make it work with a real upper they would solve the problem. You can make a lower out of of wood, or anything to some extent. Sure its absolutely retarded to do it...and that's why it never took off...cause of the amount of knowledge work and money it would take to try to make it work only to have it not last. Since we have had this briefing I haven't heard a thing about it again until this ATF stuff. The idea behind it was for felons to try and navigate laws by not having to register the lower. Give me some time to research this a little more and see If I can private message you what was originally sent to me..and let me talk with some of our armorers too. I'll try to get you the exact specifics..and honestly I'd like to see a video of one firing myself. All im saying is it possible...but i think it would be very very difficult.

edit on 3-2-2013 by cosmicexplorer because: (no reason given)

well, the story is about two years old, so your briefing on the matter, was most likely related to the idiocy we saw in the OP.

the reason you haven't heard anything about it since, is because it's complete bulls**t, and just another example of the federal government trying to demonize guns, and brainwash the younger generation into believing they're bad...they know airsoft is popular with the young people, and they want to take it away....they don't want young people getting comfortable or familiar with guns..

anyone who knows anything about guns knows that if you wanna get around serial numbers, and registration, you get yourself an 80% lower(which is not required to have a serial number, because it is incomplete), mill it out, and build the weapon yourself...and here's the thing about that...it's completely legal to do. If you check the ATF's website, they state in there that an 80% lower is NOT considered a firearm. furthermore, they say it is legal for you mill one out, and build your own weapon, and it does not have to be registered. the only caveat is that you are not allowed to sell it, and i don't think you can transfer it either, but that's straight from the ATF...

SO! ..let's play devil's advocate here for a moment, COMPLETELY suspend disbelief for a moment, and say, sure, you can use the highest quality lower from an Airsoft GBB M-4 or M-16, and you can mate that to an AR-15 upper, and it will work...HOW exactly is that any different than building your own AR-15 from an 80% lower that you finished yourself? why is it a problem? i'm pretty sure you can't use the airsoft full auto trigger group with an AR-15 upper..so you would need to use the semi-auto trigger group from an AR-15, so the finished product would be the same as an AR-15 built from an 80% lower....

but......since it's not possible to even DO such a thing, and even if it were, it would be the same thing as building off an 80-percenter, the ATF was not only lying, but was making a big fuss over nothing...it was propaganda bulls**t scare tactics, to give legislators ammunition, at a time when many states were trying to ban a legitimate hobby... as a matter of fact, i remember that was one of the arguments that was used by legislators here in my state, to try to ban airsoft, and criminalize ownership of replicas...it fell flat, when it was demonstrated that they are not as dangerous as legislators asserted, and i believe there was even expert testimony that stated you can't convert them to fire real bullets...i'll hafta see if i can dig that up out of my files...i was affiliated with one of the organizations that fought the legislation..

i'd love to further discuss the matter with you...i find it fascinating, but ultimately pointless, since it just can't be done...but i would love to see whatever you've got..

also, just to clarify to those of you not paying attention, the (idiotic) assertion by ATF, is that you can "with minimal work", convert an Airsoft M-4 into a military grade weapon....the consensus among those of us in the thread that actually know some s**t about guns, is that you would need to modify the airsoft lower- mate it to an AR-15 upper, and you would theoretically have a functioning weapon, capable of auto and burst fire....and the majority of those of us that actually know some s**t about guns agree it is not a thing that can be done, for multiple reasons...and i'm fairly certain that was done on purpose. by the manufacturers of the airsoft replicas, to protect against the very thing ATF was (idiotically) freaking out over..

Originally posted by dave_welch
Ok, so lets entertain the possibility (highly unlikely) that it can be done. You're going through a lot of trouble for a Lower Receiver. Just think about this, The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms just confiscated 30 toys that may be able to be used for parts on real guns. They did that, instead of going after REAL ILLEGAL GUNS! Our Tax Dollars at work everybody.

Point of Specificity: it happened a little over 2 years ago.

reply to post by Daedalus


And what difference does that make as to what I said?

If it can be converted to fire real ammo, Prove It. I wanna see a video of one of their guys firing it.
Somebody better be standing there with a cell phone and 91 dialed. Just wait till he pulls the trigger, then go ahead and dial the other 1.

The only thing that ATF cares about is the lower receiver.

Originally posted by dave_welch
reply to post by Daedalus

 

And what difference does that make as to what I said?

not much, aside from context...you said they JUST did it, so i was under the impression that you thought they actually just did it, so i wanted to make sure i clarified that they actually wasted our money a little over two years ago, and not just now

Originally posted by DAVID64
If it can be converted to fire real ammo, Prove It. I wanna see a video of one of their guys firing it.
Somebody better be standing there with a cell phone and 91 dialed. Just wait till he pulls the trigger, then go ahead and dial the other 1.

Did, uh, someone call nine-one-holy s**t?

reply to post by sean


which, in this case, doesn't matter, because their (idiotic) assertion is bunk..

reply to post by Daedalus


I absolutely agree there are better ways...as you mentioned the 80% receiver...and I totally agree this is a fear mongering tactic from the ATF. And frankly i could care less if people were doing it...

I brought it up this morning in briefing and the consensus is that it could be done with a complete wipe of components...new drill holes and then a complete install of components...but would be pointless...mostly for what we've already mentioned...I really wanna see someone do it now just for the sake of it...I'm sure the ATF will have someone working on it either way at this point haha.

Im completely pro gun and on your side mate...and I believe stuff like this has to be monitored...I can assure you the majority of my department claims they wouldn't enforce unconstitutional laws....I know for sure I wouldn't enforce a gun grab and have already stated I would resign in a heartbeat.

Originally posted by cosmicexplorer
reply to post by Daedalus

 

I absolutely agree there are better ways...as you mentioned the 80% receiver...and I totally agree this is a fear mongering tactic from the ATF. And frankly i could care less if people were doing it...

I brought it up this morning in briefing and the consensus is that it could be done with a complete wipe of components...new drill holes and then a complete install of components...but would be pointless...mostly for what we've already mentioned...I really wanna see someone do it now just for the sake of it...I'm sure the ATF will have someone working on it either way at this point haha.

Im completely pro gun and on your side mate...and I believe stuff like this has to be monitored...I can assure you the majority of my department claims they wouldn't enforce unconstitutional laws....I know for sure I wouldn't enforce a gun grab and have already stated I would resign in a heartbeat.

lol, i don't know what department you work for, but they're crazy, rofl! and i mean that in the nicest (jokingly) way possible, i'm actually laughing as i type this..

i still say it can't be done....maybe i'll shoot an email to Red Jacket, see what they think over there...they build the craziest guns i've ever seen...if anyone would know for sure, it'd be them...

All guns have to be made out of high quality SPECIAL MAGIC gun steel otherwise they will explode. The Tec-9 for example is made entirely out of hardened SPECIAL MAGIC gun steel specially forged in space by metallurgy fairies.

www.youtube.com...

... In reality the regulated part of it (The part the ATF will refer to as the 'firearm') is made out of crappy plastic that is known to crack with use. An AR15 based on a modified aluminum airsoft receiver (some are even steel) would be more durable than many production firearms.

Some production AR15 receivers and trigger groupings are made almost entirely out of molded plastic

www.youtube.com...


The receiver is considered the firearm. Almost anything can be used to make a receiver, even a plastic chopping board. It is a component that does not need to be made of metal nor does it experience significant stress.

www.youtube.com...


If you think modifying a decent quality airsoft AR15 receiver into a working firearm component 'is impossible' you have no imagination. It would not even be 'difficult' with minimal tools. Even the trigger grouping of a gas blowback could be utilized. The only function it would need to perform is hitting the firing pin. If it does not line up you weld or screw on more material in order to raise the profile of the hammer face forward.


The ATF are of course fear mongering and trying to justify the seizure by blowing a technical possibility out of proportion and implying to the public that a fully assembled BB gun can somehow be transformed and is a threat to society. The agent in question probably does not even know what part the receiver is seeing as he couldn't even figure out which way the magazine went in.

Originally posted by TheDarkTurnip
All guns have to be made out of high quality SPECIAL MAGIC gun steel otherwise they will explode. The Tec-9 for example is made entirely out of hardened SPECIAL MAGIC gun steel specially forged in space by metallurgy fairies.

www.youtube.com...

... In reality the regulated part of it (The part the ATF will refer to as the 'firearm') is made out of crappy plastic that is known to crack with use. An AR15 based on a modified aluminum airsoft receiver (some are even steel) would be more durable than many production firearms.

Some production AR15 receivers and trigger groupings are made almost entirely out of molded plastic

www.youtube.com...


The receiver is considered the firearm. Almost anything can be used to make a receiver, even a plastic chopping board. It is a component that does not need to be made of metal nor does it experience significant stress.

www.youtube.com...


If you think modifying a decent quality airsoft AR15 receiver into a working firearm component 'is impossible' you have no imagination. It would not even be 'difficult' with minimal tools. Even the trigger grouping of a gas blowback could be utilized. The only function it would need to perform is hitting the firing pin. If it does not line up you weld or screw on more material in order to raise the profile of the hammer face forward.


The ATF are of course fear mongering and trying to justify the seizure by blowing a technical possibility out of proportion and implying to the public that a fully assembled BB gun can somehow be transformed and is a threat to society. The agent in question probably does not even know what part the receiver is seeing as he couldn't even figure out which way the magazine went in.

edit on 3-2-2013 by TheDarkTurnip because: (no reason given)

just to clarify, there is a HUGE difference between the kind of polymer they make firearms parts out of, HDPE, and the cheap plastic most airsoft replicas are made from.

That said, GBB M-4 lowers are usually either milled from stainless steel (super high end), aluminum (high end), pr cast from pot metal (el cheapo). i'm gonna go ahead and say that the trigger group on a GBB M-4 isn't gonna be compatible with the AR-15 upper, and i'm not even sure if the magazine would load up far enough to properly feed the cartridges...

with the amount of modification you would need to make to the airsoft lower, it would be just as much work to buy an 80-percenter, and do that up...

in short, the ATF are retarded....

you'd think an agency responsible for regulating firearms would know what the hell they're talking about, lol

reply to post by TheDarkTurnip

Wow.. I don't know where to start?

Perhaps by saying I've never seen an AR-15 lower made from polymer/plastics? I'm sure now I've said that, someone will find an example of one somewhere...but I've never seen it. There is nothing "magic" about the design and construction of a Tec-9 or AR- platform rifle. It's just made to the task. In this case? Well, I'll agree in that the lower isn't subjected to THAT much stress.....but it still gets enough. Recoil is something so few seem to give any consideration to.

To those who have never owned or fired an AR/M-16 type rifle, the "felt recoil" is almost negligible because of a gas block system that takes barrel pressures of 10's of thousands of feet per square inch and diverts some of that out though a system out near the end of the barrel. It diverts it up and back into the receiver through a narrow tube that carries that blast of filthy air back into the "bolt carrier group", thereby forcing the bolt back directly by that VERY high pressure blast of 'exhaust', as a good way to picture it.

I once saw someone place the butt end of a collapsed stock AR against his crotch to fire it. It was to show his girl that she really COULD shoot that "big black gun" and not be hurt by it. He wasn't and she did. She had fun too.... Point being, THAT is how low the recoil is from those rifles...so people tend to get to thinking it's a simple thing and materials aren't that important.

Well...Material is VERY important because that system works by EXTREMELY high pressures operating for fractions of a second in different parts of the working mechanisms. The physics of it don't simply stop being relevant just because we don't see and feel every stage of it. The physics are what would blow the Air-Soft "AR-15" into fragments and not even put the bullet downrange.

(A bullet doesn't 'go' anywhere by the powder being fired. The pressure built up and pushing it down the barrel is what sends it anywhere...without it? It's a VERY dangerous firecracker)

Now, when I had my AR-15 I also had a Sako bolt action hunting rifle chambered in .223. Same round, same charge. Same everything. The rounds were 100% interchangeable to the extent I was willing to put some of my "AR food" through a fine rifle. The recoil on the AR-15 was almost zero, as mentioned. The recoil on the Sako was enough to leave a good bruise in the shoulder after a couple hundred rounds during a day at the range.

The recoil never went away in the AR-....it's just contained differently and directed to serve an additional mechanical function. That doesn't make material LESS important, it makes it FAR MORE important than a bolt action or other form of firearm. Especially the infernal AR- design blowing all that crappy 'exhaust' right into an otherwise clean receiver group.....just as HOT, I might add, as one might imagine it would be too.

reply to post by Daedalus


Will do brother...ive enjoyed the convo....I really don't know the answer myself as ive never actually seen it done...im going off what others have said...take care and ill be sure to send ya something if i can find it.

reply to post by signalfire

I agree that spending money to interdict toy guns is insane, but so is a country where gun shops outnumber grocery stores.

I don't see the relevance here. It's an entirely speculative and subjective statement to say this. Statements like these are usually the rhetoric of uninformed anti-2nd amendment folks (not calling you that at all, really). Please do not take offense at this rebuttal. I just found this particular statement negatively subjective and unfounded regarding firearms and firearm-related deaths. I just don't believe its fair to lump together hundreds of law-abiding firearm shop owners and dirt-bag street thugs who are casting a negative shadow on the rest of us.

Be well, signalfire!