Does anti-Obama hatred undermine collectively held US values?

Originally posted by InnerPeace2012
I don't get your logic, would you pat a captain for his efforts of sinking the very ship your on.

Oh, your not actually on that ship, me either, but I understand how it feels.

I don't know but I think he's been working his ass off trying to keep the ship afloat and getting it pointing at the horizon and away from the shoals of destruction.

reply to post by Juggernog


I personally use "communist" because it does have that evil cold-war inflection, which is more viscerally effective than saying "socialist", because so many young people view socialism as a good thing. They are of course misinformed.

reply to post by AwakeinNM

But can you support the contention? Thanks.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by 11235813213455

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by 11235813213455

 

Can you be more specific?

Can you? Are you feigning ingnorance here?

In what regard? I don't know what you mean?

Ok so since youre being slippery I'll respond to the title.

No I dont think it undermines our values. It has always been the American way to hate "The Man". As long as there has been "The Man" we've been united against him.

So let me ask you something specific. Why do you have so much reverence for government power?

I think hating Obama is the epitome of American values, because everything he stands for is contrary to American values. Your question is somewhat flawed in that American values are not collective, they are individually held by Americans, and when those individuals come together great things happen, or at least they used to.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by InnerPeace2012
I don't get your logic, would you pat a captain for his efforts of sinking the very ship your on.

Oh, your not actually on that ship, me either, but I understand how it feels.

I don't know but I think he's been working his ass off trying to keep the ship afloat and getting it pointing at the horizon and away from the shoals of destruction.

Well this is a conspiracy site, as much as you would think the Captains keeping it afloat, many would see quite the opposite.

Others, say there is an agenda, where all this is headed. But there is no one else to blame you see. It's either the captain and his shadow crew, or themselves.

Who do you think the majority will blame?

Peace

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by AwakeinNM

 

But can you support the contention? Thanks.

Deflection tactics again. SMH.. I don't need to support it. It is blatantly effing obvious to anyone who possesses a brain and even the slightest knowledge of history.

Thanks for playing, though.

I'm glad I've posed this question, and all I'm asking is that you think it all the way through, rationally, without opting for the default emotional reaction/response which doesn't uplift anyone and may even be debasing.

Me I'm all for a new age of an enlightened mutual best interest, and if Obama is undermining the human potential of the American citizen, it would be nice to know precisely why and how.

reply to post by AwakeinNM

I'm deflecting?

All I asked was for you to support in some way shape or form the accusation that Obama is a communist.

In truth he's a collectivist who's philosophy is Bodhisatva-like in so far as our individual salvation is tied to our collective salvation, something that I've come to agree with, provided it NEVER undermines our individual civil liberty and unfettered and unconstrained freedom (within the rule of law), that's when all is lost.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I'm glad I've posed this question, and all I'm asking is that you think it all the way through, rationally, without opting for the default emotional reaction/response which doesn't uplift anyone and may even be debasing.

Me I'm all for a new age of an enlightened mutual best interest, and if Obama is undermining the human potential of the American citizen, it would be nice to know precisely why and how.

How about you list why and how he is increasing the potential of the American citizen? It would be nice to know precisely why and how he is doin that.

"Anti-Obama hatred" is more a defense of the foundational values of this nation as well as the values and policies that made it successful. Rather than a reverse personality cult, it is more a recognition that he is the one who is undermining the above.
He is our employee and as such, should be accountable to us.

Perhaps you perceive that he "wants what is best for us." I would tend to disagree. Regardless of intentions, however, he should be judged on actions and results.

QE is obviously very destructive. Especially combined with the increasing dependence and entitlement being encouraged by his government policies. I can't think of a more despicable policy. When the greatest sovereign debt bubble in human history bursts, and it will, those people will suffer as a direct result of his incompetence.

His full embrace and expansion of the "Patriot Act", 2011 NDAA, EO 16303, and his "legal", yet unconstitutional, assassinations of American citizens without trial prove he is not afraid of totalitarian tyranny.

And the idea that he is trying to help the middle class is a farce. Jacking up Health Insurance costs, gradual inflation as a result of QE, taxing the hell out of small business job creators, demonizing success, rewarding irresponsible behavior, inflating college costs with government subsidies of loans while making a degree valueless by pushing the idea that "everyone should go to college" (ie severely lowering standards)....
These are a few reasons why any reasonable person who believes in personal responsibility, self reliance, individual liberty, and basic dignity would not be a fan of Obama or anything he represents.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by AwakeinNM

 

I'm deflecting?

All I asked was for you to support in some way shape or form the accusation that Obama is a communist.

Ask anyone over the age of 50 who came here from a communist of formerly communist country. Ask them if anything sounds familiar, if it seems familiar.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

 

Fine but can you support your argument? It's not too much to ask is it?

Actually all you have to do is look at all the video throughout history of politicians and their campaign promises and compare it to what they actually do. 1st off, i'm not going to spend hours doing research on a topic I already know the answer to, just to appease you but I will give you a simple example of an outright liar though...by Obama himself.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Do you not feel that your op is full of generalized statements? The same type of statements that you are criticizing other members for making.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
...and appears to want what's best for the American people, like economic recovery and a burgeoning and resurgent middle class, immigration reform, equal rights, education reform, etc. I'm just not sure how all the anti-Obama hatred is helpful in advancing collectively held US values...

...and that he's done the best he could with the resources available to him.

...get behind the initiative for a resurgent USA and all manner of progressive change for the better...

...he's the best you've got at the moment and may be the best leader and President you've had in a long time.

I am curious what specific policies you are referring to when you are making such statements and why you feel they are designed for the purposes you attribute to them?

Lets not forget this little anti American gem.



No.... I most definitely see Obama as undermining American values.

From page one

Monkey Man is not one of us - plane and simply. He is undermining our beliefs and rights. Yes he was handed a plate full - but he is also full of it and unfit to lead this country. Being president of the United States is not a position for on the job training. The majority of this country has kissed the butts of the minorities by electing this fake as president -

No, he doesn't look like any previous president....

Too bad Bush was not put under the same scrutiny. :shk:
Maybe the country wouldn't have been in such a state when Obama was elected.
He was expected to be extremely bad for the country before he even had a chance to prove that he was unfit for the job.

He was the best choice for the job though, McCain was dangerously unfit, and Romney also.

New Age Man

I don't normally sympathise with your viewpoint or your approach to debate, but I fully endorse what you have achieved here.

Two pages down and the Barack-haters have yet to come up with anything more concrete that wild accusations and schoolyard cries of 'no, you!'

It is distressingly obvious that most people who hate Barack Obama (and they are very much in the minority, both in America and in the rest of the world) hate him because he's a black man. That is why their jabber is so irrational, and why they can't find anything more concrete to accuse him of than frothing-at-the-mouth appelations like 'socialist' and 'communist'. Oh, and let's not forget 'monkey'.

Thanks for putting up this thread. It brings the creeps out of the woodwork and helps us identify them for future reference.

For starters, in terms of fundamental values and belief, which is really the first cause in any civil and burgeoning society, something that I believe is still in the realm of all possibility both for the United States and the larger world, I happen to think that when Obama states that "my individual salvation is inextricably tied to our collective salvation" he understands something about the importance of "we", which while that would indeed be the framework of choice for any aspiring politician, is nevertheless the correct philosophy and value to hold, placing things in the appropriate context, all the way to the brotherhood of man, when framed by liberty and the right to self determination including economic justice and thus equal access to higher education which makes all new things possible via innovation, self-improvement and the realization of the American dream being still accessible in spite of the recent war on the middle class and the greatest bank heist in the history of the world. Sorry for the run on sentence.

Policies flow from ideals and values. The ancients of the Indus River Valley Civilization understood that from a cherished ideal in the heart as a first/last cause flows the whole of human experience at all levels, and throughout the structure of society. I think Obama actually understands this, and it is his central recurring theme that he likes to keep touching on over and over again.

It beats the heck out of what we were given by the Bush/Cheney crazies, whereby

“Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. ''Patriotism'' is its cult. It should hardly be necessary to say, that by ''patriotism'' I mean that attitude which puts the own nation above humanity, above the principles of truth and justice; not the loving interest in one's own nation, which is the concern with the nation's spiritual as much as with its material welfare /never with its power over other nations. Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one's country which is not part of one's love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship.”

~ Erich Fromm, American Psychologist

If you can't love everyone equally, then your love is without foundation, and therefore your sense of service and purpose, without direction.

In my humble opinion, and don't get me wrong, I'm not an "Obama lover" as I love all people, Obama understands this clearly and therefore something about the true nature of American Virtue, whereby one definition that I've heard for virtue is "power, restrained". It is the authentic model of leadership of Jesus Christ in fact.

May it then extends outwardly to the world as "soft power" within the frame of a global, multilateral alliances and enlightened mutual best interests (including global warming), not a purely unipolar hardened US-self interest, at the other's expense and without regard to the value of human life and the framework of international law (see Bush/Cheney years for more).

Mind you if he doesn't bring a halt to the war, and keeps the drones firing and killing innocents, and American citizens, then he would forfeit his claim to those same values that he espouses, so the jury is still out, but I think overall that he's on the right track in terms of what he's trying to bring about, but

it's really up to all of you, but if almost half of you are consumed with hatred for Obama and your government, blaming them for everything, even your own sad state of affairs, then where are you (are we?)? What part are you playing, what role?

I'm not saying to love and trust your government, not at all.

I'm just saying be reasonable and remember that you are not a pro-Obama and an anti-Obama America or American, you are the United States of America, and each one among us, however great or small is still but the smallest and thus the greatest part of "we the people". You are like the wind that blows in the flag may it blow proudly once again!

So what I'm implying by the OP and the title is that vehement anti-Obama hatred is undermining the collective good of the American people in terms of the direction of the individual and collective energies, which might be better spent focusing on improving ourselves, our own lives and the lives of everyone we touch, because after all, our individual salvation is inextricably tied to our collective salvation - what a wonderful American value.

Kind of difficult to deploy or make it heartfelt, however, when almost half of the people hate you unto their very blood and bones.

I don't know but I just think it's a little too much and a real waste of time and energy.

Could have been worse too, if McCain, or Romney or Giuliani were in - then there'd be more all-out warfare, and god knows what kind of Corporate cronyism and military-industrial establishment domination including the continued militarization of the bureaucracy like that which we "enjoyed" during the Bush/Cheney years..

Originally posted by Astyanax
New Age Man
It is distressingly obvious that most people who hate Barack Obama (and they are very much in the minority, both in America and in the rest of the world) hate him because he's a black man. That is why their jabber is so irrational, and why they can't find anything more concrete to accuse him of than frothing-at-the-mouth appelations like 'socialist' and 'communist'. Oh, and let's not forget 'monkey'.

Thanks for putting up this thread. It brings the creeps out of the woodwork and helps us identify them for future reference.

But he's not even black!

And hey, if you can't love everyone equally, then you can't really love anyone at all, including yourself, so now here you go calling the opposition "creeps" that I can't approve as it violates my core values.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

He's black enough for them. That's enough to be going on with. You have any better theories?