Illegal Immigration reduces value of American workers

reply to post by votan


I disagree as well. Our citizens are not above menial jobs. When Ice would deport thousands of illegals, thousands of citizens quickly took those jobs.

If you delegitimize workers you get away with paying them less. At the same time you can push aside with workers who are legitimate to avoid addressing the protections they fall under. In other words, its in the best interest of exploiters to keep immigrants illegal, because they can be paid less and have no protections under the law. I know this is probably blatantly obvious to most people.But if suddenly you the illegal workers the same protections as the citizens, you lose the advantage of hiring them over an American worker, because the cost is the same. So by keeping labor illegal, they exploit both the illegals who make less money and the citizens whose job gets given to the illegals. Its the best of both worlds for them. Its also why corporate leaning politicians are so against any form of immigration reform because it will poison the well of their cheap labor market. So in essence foreign workers are NOT dropping wages, the fact that they are kept illegal and as a result can be exploited into lower pay more easily derails wage competition and THAT is what is dropping wages.

reply to post by teslahowitzer


To look at the illegal immigration issue from another perspective:

1. Shouldn't it be a problem that you are competing for the same job as an uneducated foreign labour who doesn't even speak the nations language?

2. Is the illegal immigrant who is taking away a minimum wage job a bigger threat than the legal H1 Visa foreigner that is taking away high paying job in the US the real threat?

3. Is the illegal immigrant any worse than the outsourcing of jobs overseas? Don't they both provide the same results cheap labor, no labor rights, no taxes and hence cheaper products?

BTW Illegal immigration is probably one of the easiest fixes to implement: Prosecute and heavily fine the companies that use illegal immigrants. They come here for work and if the companies here do not find it profitable to hire them or worth the risk to hire them then they will stop coming. No unsustainable or outrages fences or border patrol is required.

Originally posted by PaladinRoden
I had a boss tell me that Americans are to educated and there is to much risk in hiring them for they know to much of what is right and what is wrong on the work site and could easily pick up a phone and complain to a government agency if they have ot work more then 12 hours without a lunch break.

Very true. They are looking for obedient and willing slave labor.

Originally posted by votan

With all the opportunites americans have... why are you all so worried about the menial jobs illegals hold.
I feel sorry for you if you cannot perform at a higher level than "illegal" immigrants.

I agree with what you said about competing with foreign unskilled labor who can't even speak the language.

However, on a side note:d

Last time I check there are no "illegal" immigrants taking jobs from doctors, nurses. lawyers, engineers or some other professionals.

Those professionals jobs are being taken by cheap temporary H1 visas "legal" immigrants in the states or those jobs are being shipped overseas.

Offshoring your lawyer:
www.economist.com...

Outsourcing doctors:
www.nbcnews.com...


IMO the real issue is the cost of living and standard of living. We can't compete with China,India, Africa, etc unless we have an equal standard of living and cost of living. Unfortunately for the US AND THE WORLD the trend is heading towards the US lowering its cost of living and standard of living instead of the other way around.

The illegal immigrant thing is irrelevant and insignificant in the bigger picture. We as a country will have to regress in momentum and lower our standards of living in order to compete with foreign nations.

Other option is for the middle class to get the flying cars to the mach speeds so they can work in the US but live in foreign country with a lower cost of living.

Originally posted by interupt42

Originally posted by PaladinRoden
I had a boss tell me that Americans are to educated and there is to much risk in hiring them for they know to much of what is right and what is wrong on the work site and could easily pick up a phone and complain to a government agency if they have ot work more then 12 hours without a lunch break.

Very true. They are looking for obedient and willing slave labor.

edit on 29-1-2013 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)

Exactly, this lowering of the wage bar causes market value reduction. I firmly agree the quality of today's construction is in the crapper, and after a few issues, this may some day be addressed, maybe. A local contractor built 36 high end homes a few years ago, all illegal labor, the first winter hard freeze, all of the water pipes busted, they put all of the water lines on the outside of the insulation in the walls, he has not been seen since. These out of towners will be brought to jobsites, told to watch what the workers do closely, and after a couple of days, your gone and they have your job, you just trained your cheap replacement, It drops quality, and the standard of living. I just do not understand why there cannot be controlled immigration by the laws already in the books, do it legal, and I do not believe 51% of Americans are cool with uncontrolled illegal immigration, that is a huge BS story, typical state run media...

reply to post by bigcountry08


"Americans don't really want jobs all that bad, during the month we looked for employees we had three people come in the first two quit halfway through there shift because it was either to hard, or they were to good for the job"

Can i ask what the job was offering? was it under 10-15 dollars?

heh having been through that busi, I worked in a kitchen as well from dishwasher -prep line - line cook- desserts

So Ive spent enough time and learned all the positions in the back, I can tell you now why they quit, who the f want to stick hands in other peoples food and get cut scratched burned and splashed with all kinds of chemicals for 4-9 bucks and hour, when you can work in a crappier job, do less work, not get hurt, and get paid the same amount?

The problem is the minimum wage in this country is retarded, who the F can live off 8 (7.25) bucks and hour hell just a pack of smokes or a monster energy drink 3.50$-9.45$ really a pack of smokes or a drink wipes out an hour of work for most people lol. lets not forget about gas to get there.

8x40 hours = #ty life

Not to mention you have contractors in this country which is basically a middle man to getting a job, people get hired through them and placed, but then don't get sick, vaca, health , or over time , and if they do its like 1 year over what normal people get obtaining the same job.

So its not just immigrants, you have the same young men /fathers looking for work. You have the mothers or single woman looking for work, and you have new immigrants female and male looking for work now add in contractors who get "around" the system, inflation, depression, taxes on every damn product, taxes on every damn service, you get a nice BIG SOUPBOWL OF CRAP.

so its not that americans dont want to work, its just that we live here and actually know what the cost of life is and what jobs SHOULD be paying. so get paid 8 bucks to stuff envelopes , or 8 bucs to get cut, burned, get sick, touch other peoples chewed food, disgusting smells, and usualy get to take trash out because you are just a dishwasher and get it all over you when bag rips ect ect.

now if the dishwashing job paid 15-25 dollars and hour id bet there would be a frikin line out the door for the job and people would kill to never lose it heh?

people from other countries dont have $%^& so they will work for $%^& and work in #$%^&* and for all purposes probably dont know what they should be making doing anythign in this country to begin with.

Then there is also the fact of women in the workplace (not being sexists) as soon as woman became part of the work force, TPTB said to themselves" DING LIGHTBULB, there's 2 people working now, we can charge double for everything.

They didn't do it right away because people would have noticed the scam , look now, same size houses from past are almost double triple the price they would have been purchasing them then. Every damn thing in this country has double and tripled in just a short amount of time and that was before bush or obuma.

but from the looks of it , they are not going to curb immigration, they arent going to increase the min wage, and theres no way to take all woman, or all men out of the workforce at this point so. its basically a doomed system.


with all that combined you can hardly say its just because americans dont want to to work...

its americans dont want to get ripped off trying to work

Originally posted by teslahowitzer

Originally posted by interupt42

Originally posted by PaladinRoden
I had a boss tell me that Americans are to educated and there is to much risk in hiring them for they know to much of what is right and what is wrong on the work site and could easily pick up a phone and complain to a government agency if they have ot work more then 12 hours without a lunch break.

Very true. They are looking for obedient and willing slave labor.

edit on 29-1-2013 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)

I just do not understand why there cannot be controlled immigration by the laws already in the books,.

They are prosecuting and PURPOSELY targeting the wrong people. Going after the illegals has shown to be ineffective at best. They need to heavily FINE all the companies that hired them from the subcontractor up to main company holding the contracts. Eventually these companies will find it cost prohibitive to risk hiring illegals which in turn will stop the majority of them coming here. Easy and simple. The only problem is the Agriculture industry would be one of the hardest hit groups by enforcing those laws and they are also one of the biggest lobbyist groups.

Its really a simple case of Money over common sense that is prevailing when it comes to illegal immigrants.

As well as we Americans have it, threads like this make me sad.

Why are you so eager to send your brothers and sisters to a foreign place run by armed gangsters? Would you want to live in Mexico right now?

Originally posted by ddaniel
As well as we Americans have it, threads like this make me sad.

Why are you so eager to send your brothers and sisters to a foreign place run by armed gangsters? Would you want to live in Mexico right now?

edit on 29-1-2013 by ddaniel because: Typo

So are you saying that the US should invade Mexico? What about China?Iran?Cuba?etc ? Do you want to live in any of those places?

I wish we could help every country and every child, but in reality the way the world is currently working that is not possible.

Don't blame the poor underpaid workers. Blame capitalism where Profit is king regardless of who get hurt. Good luck changing that.

I got tired of lowpaying deadend jobs and went back to school, applied myself, got a degree and improved my life.

Looking for scapegoats for problems we bring on ourselves is stupid.

As someone who works in the building industry, I can attest to the damage illegals have done to the quality of construction in this country. Many come here unable to speak English and can't read a simple set of construction documents. So what is intended to get built does not get built. And what DOES get built is dangerously inadequate and comically not to standard, unless people in my field like me are on the site 24/7 to babysit. (which is not how it works in my industry)

Point blank, contractors are about the bottom line. So they'll buy the cheapest labor possible. And the reason illegal laborers can accept lower wages is they don't pay taxes on them and have a low overhead standard-of-living-wise. There are PLENTY of out-of-work Americans who wouldn't have any problem working construction to earn a paycheck. I know a few. But they are getting priced out of the market because illegals can accept less cash for their services because they are beyond the governmental overhead we American citizens are obligated to pay.

If you're here in this country an illegal citizen and stealing jobs, not paying taxes (and social security, medicare, etc.) on your income and taking from we the taxpayers in terms of government services like schooling and healthcare, then I'm sorry. You're a deadbeat. When you go to live in a foreign country and make no effort to learn the national language or customs, choosing instead to hole up in "[insert-ethnicity-here] Town" and mooch off the public dime, you delegitimize your reason for being here. Don't abandon your own culture, but at least try to assimilate to some of ours. You're not adding anything to the American community the rest of us sacrifice for in each of those cases listed above. You're only taking advantage of it's good will under the guise of making a better life for yourself. There is a selfishness and a (yes, people) laziness in that.

The America left has made it a mission lately to increase the burden of as many of the illegal population here as possible on the public dole, (to the tune of tens of millons!), with no solution as to how to pay for it. I can only see financial insolvency as he endgame in all of this.

"When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half get the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation." -Dr. Adrian Rogers

Come here to America, but do it legally like many of the rest of our ancestors. Pay into the system instead of being a burden upon it and dragging it down. Be a part of the community. Add to the quality of life here that we citizens are all trying to improve with each generation for our children and our children's children. Do not detract from it. This is what we ask ...

My side is not xenophobic or anti-immigrant. My side is very much pro-American Dream. That is what illegals come here for. But that "American Dream" will cease to exist as an option if the system that perpetuates it continues to be flooded by those who are content to mooch off of the contributions of the citizens of this country. Contribute. Contribute. Contribute. That's how you keep the train rolling. Everyone pitches in. The citizens here who sacrifice for the system are the people that keep that dream alive for everyone to potentially realize should they have the drive to pursue it. Do not kill the American Dream ...Perpetuate it. Legally. For our children. And their children. This is all we Americans ask.

This is one of the greatest countries in the World to live in. But when you break down our door, pee on our rug, drink all of the beer we have left in the fridge, and leave, what are we left with? Hospitality gets you nowhere if your house is trashed at the end of the day and you're left picking up the pieces. Contribute to the cause ...don't mooch off of it.

There ARE jobs in Mexico, the same ones they do here in the States, but they pay less....it's about time we address the real problem....corruption in the Mexican govt.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by teslahowitzer

 

Originally posted by teslahowitzer
With all of the libritarian and liberals and others on here and no nasty replies of racism or right wing psyco nutjob issues, no one has an alternative view on an issue that is really being shoved down the throat of the legal taxpayers and voters of this under invasion nation, Then how the He** are they getting away with making an unknown # of criminals free citizens, I do not get it, anyone else???

The Voters Have Spoken

A new poll shows most Americans support allowing illegal immigrants in the country to stay, with the opportunity to become citizens.

Fifty-one percent in a CBS News poll released Monday say illegal immigrants already in the U.S. should be able to remain in the country and apply for citizenship.

Your personal views are your own. You're free to have them.

According to the History of Immigration in the US, our country is following a long history of "changing as we go along" and adapting to new conditions of the world and our population. Old laws no longer apply. Blacks are equal, women can vote, Asians are no longer barred from becoming citizens, etc. We are more inclusive. Fear of "others" is less and less. With this last election, the people spoke. And they disagree with you.

reply to post by thepolish1

 

Originally posted by thepolish1
PURE BS at it's finest.

My thoughts exactly as I read your post.

edit on 1/29/2013 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)

"Survey says:" 51% of the country aren't adversely affected.
... yet.

If it weren't for the influx of increasingly cheap labor, California's construction and agricultural industries would've collapsed while Clinton was in office.

Not intending to sound like a conspiracy theorist but consider the possibility that the employers and government are doing it deliberately to pay less money for more work done. Just think of it, you (the USA) have one of the best guarded borders in the world, high-tech security and all, and yet 10-20 million "illegal" immigrants seem to slip through their hands undetected. I know it's not fair to the American workers but put yourself in the employers position, why should he pay an American worker 18$ an hour when an "illegal" one can do twice the work for half the money, and above all of that he'll not raise his voice for awful working conditions, lack of health insurance etc.. because he's "illegal" and just wants to keep his job in order to feed his family or whatever. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems possible to me.

Are illegal aliens good the for the US economy really? Lets See

But they increase sales revenue because they spend their money in the US.

On Tuesday, the Hispanically Speaking News reported that wire transfers or remittances to Mexico increased by 7.8 percent in May 2012 over the same month in 2011. In May, Mexican workers sent home 7,096 transfers, totaling $2.34 billion.

Yes you read that right $2.34 Billion in a month.


But they don't take US workers jobs. (Looking for more recent stats)

Between June 2009 and June 2010, immigrants (including illegal aliens) have gained 656,000 jobs, while U.S. born workers lost 1.2 million jobs during that same period.

Source

But these are low paying jobs that no one wants. I would take a low paying job tax free and get the benefit of food stamps and free healthcare, yes we already have free healthcare its called Medicaid. Also buy the way you can not buy alcohol and cell phones with your LoneStar card (Texas not sure what they are called in other states) and get cash back.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
There ARE jobs in Mexico, the same ones they do here in the States, but they pay less....it's about time we address the real problem....corruption in the Mexican govt.

The real problem is the differences between standard of living and cost of living among world.

You are correct Mexico has corruption but so does the US. You are also correct the same jobs are in MEXICO and they pay less because the cost of living and the standard of living in MEXICO is much less.

That is no different than why we can't compete with China. Its not the Chinese labour that American corporations are seeking. They are seeking the cheapest cost of doing business. China can provide that because Chinese labor can survive with dollars a week. Hence why we can't compete with them.

You want to live like a King then work in the US and live or retire in Mexico or another country with a low cost of living. That is what the Mexicans or foreigners are doing. We Americans wan't to work and live in the same country with the same standard of living as WE SHOULD. Unfortunately the global economy and the differences in cost of living and standard of living around the world is changing that in order for us to buy cheap products.

The real issue is we need to decide to what extent do we want to be involved in a global economy.