Patriots don't secede

Originally posted by smithjustinb
I would prefer to be sovereign, independent, and utterly free than to be some servant to some ideal or to anyone telling me what's right or wrong or to anyone imposing consequences on me for my choices except for those who my choices directly effect. You're damn right I'm not a patriot and definitely not your definition of a patriot and I wish every power grabbing government in the world would disappear tomorrow so that I can for once truly call myself, "free". To hell with anyone that tries to tell me how to live.

You wrote this thread assuming that anyone who might consider themself to not be a patriot should somehow feel shamed and inferior. But im proud and content and there's no ideal you could shove down my throat to change that.

I don't need a government, and neither does any other strong minded individual. What people like me need is independence and the authority to deal with our own problems. F@@@ patriotism. You pledge allegiance to those who want to enslave you.

edit on 20-1-2013 by smithjustinb because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-1-2013 by smithjustinb because: (no reason given)

Are you 100% self reliant? Do you survive without electricity, without monetary income, without purchasing, without transporation, without anything that is considered part of our every day life? (of course you don't, you're on the internet now which means you have internet service and have bought a computer). You are a hypocrite. If you were "living free" you would be out in the wilderness living off the land. You wouldn't be sitting back in a house on a street in a town in a state in this nation. That's all part of what is made possible by having a government that makes laws and gives rights and responsibilities.
By merely posting on an internet message board in the comfort of your home you are showing yourself to be nothing more than a hypocrite. You want all the priveledges but none of the responsibilities.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


An American patriot is loyal first to the NATION that is his state. His loyalty is primarily to state sovereignty.

THAT is what an American patriot is. The federal government is established by the contractual agreement made by the US constitution which UNIFIES the states. The UNION is not our country. It is a UNION of nations.

The federal government is not a country. It is a civil service FOR the states. A representative agency.

It can not change laws. STATES do that. Period.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


Well said! Star for that! Most people just do not seem to "get" that. We are a conglomeration of sovereign states joined together for the greater good. When the common "good" is no longer the objective...we have a serious problem with power and control.

Originally posted by LittleByLittle
The people in NAZI germany was very patriotic and look where that got them. From my point of view being a Patriot is being an small minded fool who can be manipulated and follows lower ideals, most of the times without questions just because a group of people have created an illusion that this group is better than another group.

If they had won the war, they would be the controlling power, they would be the one here on the message boards and you would hold the views and beliefs of that culture instead. To the winner goes the spoils. Since they lost, they are demonized by today's society (and justly so in my opinion, but that's my opinion).

They were patriotic to their way of life, to their government. Their government lost. Perhaps they weren't so patriotic, perhaps they were condemning their government in private but never in public as they would be seen as the traitors they were.

In this country, we can oppose the decisions made by our elected officials and aren't taken to a concentration camp as a result. We are able to oppose the decisions, we are able to work toward changing the decisions. That is freedom, that is also responsibility. Sitting back and complaining about it serves no purpose. It is our responsibility to work toward changing what we disagree with by working within the system set up by the founding fathers and the US Constitution. Rights are not freely given, rights are something that have been fought for, that have been worked for, that people have died for, not something that you get automatically just for being born. If you do not wish to exercise your rights, if you do not wish to stand up for your rights, if you are not willing to die for your rights if needed, then they are not rights at all and you do not deserve them.

Too many people are greedy and self-righteous. They are nothing but hypocrites. They feel the world owes them something for merely existing. If you wish to have a certain way of life, you have to work for it, you have to fight for it, sometimes you have to die for it. It's not something given freely, it's something that people come together and decide upon. Rights and responsibilities go together, you can't have one without the other and consider yourself to be free. If you don't live up to the responsibilities, then you don't deserve the rights.

Maybe that's the issue, people don't understand what a "Right" is. It's not something you have just because you live and breathe, it's something that is granted to you as a result of those who came before you. It is something that comes with a certain degree of responsibility and something you pass on to future generations. It's not something that just "is" and "always will be". There are no such rights, they don't exist. Nothing is free, nothing is without responsibilities, nothing is there just because we want it to be. This is such a spoiled and selfish generation. Their own arrogance, ignorance and greed jeopardizes what has been hard fought to keep.

reply to post by HopSkipJump

Are you 100% self reliant? Do you survive without electricity, without monetary income, without purchasing, without transporation, without anything that is considered part of our every day life? (of course you don't, you're on the internet now which means you have internet service and have bought a computer). You are a hypocrite. If you were "living free" you would be out in the wilderness living off the land. You wouldn't be sitting back in a house on a street in a town in a state in this nation. That's all part of what is made possible by having a government that makes laws and gives rights and responsibilities.
By merely posting on an internet message board in the comfort of your home you are showing yourself to be nothing more than a hypocrite. You want all the priveledges but none of the responsibilities.

Government does not provide electricity or monetary income or transportation or the internet or any of the other perks of your everyday life. Those perks are provided by private, for profit corporations upon which you are dependent, and for which you must pay with money borrowed, at interest, from one of the above named corporations. Government's role is to protect those corporations by regulating you and taxing you for the privilege.

They win, you lose.

Originally posted by Jeremiah65
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

I only made it about halfway through your first post and I had to respond.

You have really missed the point or perhaps are intentionally missing the point. "True" patriots support an ideal...not a borderline system on a map.

I am a patriot and I support the Constitution. I support the Republic...I support the ideologies our founding fathers put down in parchment and ink. If the "Governing body" is turning against the founding principals...then there is a problem.

We are a Constitutional Republic wherein the Government is restrained from absolute power by a document...we are also a "Nomocracy"...the rule of law...where the law is equally applied to the many, the few and even the one. Any deviency from this principle is the breakdown from a Republic into a democracy...and as a very-very wise man wrote thousands of years ago...

"Republics decline into democracies and democracies degenerate into despotism."...Aristotle

If you do not see this happening before your eyes...well...enjoy the fantasy.

edit on 1/20/2013 by Jeremiah65 because: (no reason given)

If that is the case, then it is not the 'government' that you are against, it is the elected officials. Those who say they wish to secede are saying they want to leave the government, the foundation, the structure, the US Constitution itself. Those wanting to secede are not standing up to the elected officials of the present time, they are saying they want to leave the structure that was created and used for the past 237 years. If they wish to stand up against the elected officials there are ways to do that in accordance with the US Constitution and they need to work within the framework that exists.
They cannot call themselves patriots if they are speaking of seceding. They are opposite things. If they wish to stand against the elected officials and with the Constitution, they are patriots (if they are correct that the elected officials are acting against the Constitution). If they want to secede because they lost and aren't in political power at the moment, they are traitors. The problem is, they aren't smart enough to know the difference.

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
If you rebel against the government you are a traitor, not a patriot. If you rebel against an elected leader, then you are doing your job as a citizen. The people spewing things from all sides these days don't understand that elected officials are NOT the government, they are elected officials. Those who are saying they want to secede are not patriots, they are abandoning the Constitution and are traitors to the United States of America, the Constitution and the founding fathers. If they REALLY wanted to defend the Constitution, they would be working to change any laws and any elected officials that may be opposing the Constitution, not saying they want to secede. When they secede, the are leaving the Constitution behind. They are not patriots, they are traitors. Cowardly traitors at that. "I'll just take my ball and go home"... that's not a patriot, that's a coward and a traitor.

You seem to be under a mistaken assuption that anyone cares about the labels you want to impose.

The US Government has long ceased to operate according to the spirit of the US Constitution and all three branches, executive, legislature and the judiciary are responsible for it, especially the SCOTUS. Laws that violate the spirit of the constitution, are unconstitutional even if the body that has been charged with protecting the constitution, SCOTUS, doesn't say so. Obeying such laws is to disrespect the constitution and its spirit.

The founders didn't claim to have instituted a perfect and incorruptible scheme for all of eternity. In fact, they did the exact opposite, they warned of complacency lest the government turn tyrannical with all the constitutional checks and balances in place.

So it is the patriotic duty of those that respect them and the spirit in which the constitution was written, to overthrow the government and institute a new one in its place. Secession is as good a move as any. Once the corrupt federal government falls, a new one can be instituted with better checks and balances to ensure this exact scenario doesn't repeat.

The term patriot is a bunch of garbage. Nothing more than nationalistic propaganda which is used to make an unimportant person feel more important to themselves.

It's an ego booster.

That's it.

It's also a statist term, which is ironic because it is most commonly used by people who say they hate government and want as little government as possible.

These same people have no problem saying the "pledge of allegiance" and being a a little state zombie.

The right wing is seriously confused in the US.

reply to post by WaterBottle


The term patriot is overused, but it does have one quality and that's the concept of something greater than "self'.

That concept is non-existent in the "left'. After all criticism is sooo much easier. Drink more water....

Originally posted by nwtrucker
I believe this to be a brilliant thread. I laud your devotion and loyalty, sir, and would be honored to have you on my side.

The question here is the "grey area".

I'm sure that this doesn't apply to you, but, under your general arguement, the soldiers, frankly all the supporers, of the Nazi Germany where "patriots". They certainly considered themselves patriots.

In that light, perhaps "patriot" isn't such a good thing. LOL.

My question to you, sincerly, is where is your "line"? At what point would you say, what just a darn minute! Where is that line crossed?

Obviously, you haven't reached your "line" yet and you may be even right! The truth is your viewpoint has made me aware of the "possiblity" that I am wrong and we haven't reached the point yet.

Have you even considered that your might be wrong? That it's not the current individuals occupying the seats of power, but the system itself that's broken? That the "ideal" of the constitution and the reality of the current gov't grows farther and farther apart almost on a daily basis?

I beieve to an extent you are correct, given enough time, proper parenting and education, we can rehabilitate the "idea" of the constitution and move, once again, closer to that ideal.

Many feel it's too late, if for no other reason than no easy solution is apparent. On the other hand, patriotism can be the "easy out" as well. never considering the painful evaluation of the worthiness of the present system.

Where would you say, enough! At what point would you say we were right?

Your thread has made me look at my own opinions, newly, and I once again question whether we have in fact past the point of no rerturn.

I'm no longer 100% sure...I hope your not, as well.

Thank you for taking the time to understand and to think about what is being done.

Yes, there is a gray area there and there is a line for each and every one of us.
Our country was set up to ensure that certain rights existed for all people regardless of who may be in political power at any given time. Our elected officials are not always right and there are checks and balances set in place to ensure that no person, elected official or average citizen, can undo what was created with ease.
Those checks and balances exist within the government structure but also in each and every citizen of our nation. It is our responsibility to ensure the elected officials (what some mistakenly refer to as the "government") do not violate the Constitution. Many have and many will continue to try to do so in the future.

In my own opinion, George Bush commited treason several times. In my opinion the Patriot Act is against the Constitution. In my opinion, he should have been stopped and impeached when he declared war on Iraq and lied about the WMDs. There are many other things that he did wrong and should have been called on, but he managed to get away with it.

If Obama tries to ban all guns (which I don't think he will, but if he does), then he will be wrong and it is our job, our responsibility to stand up and say no. There are means by which to do that other than to "take our ball and go home". The Supreme Court will end up ruling on any decision that is made and any decision that bans guns from ownership is a violation of the Second Ammendment. Some of the things we can do right now is have our voices heard. To make it known to the elected officials who would be responsible for accepting any such act that we do not support it, that we will not comply, that it is a violation of our rights as set forth by the US Constitution and it is our responsibility to do that.

If the time were to come that a ban was made (which won't happen, I don't believe it possibly can), then we will have to make the decision of whether to abide by it and fight it civily or to refuse to abide by it and fight it with force. I am of the firm belief that the US Military will not comply, nor will the citizens of the United States.

Right now, there are political pundits trying to manipulate people from both sides of the political spectrum. They are using people's emotions to control them. Those on the left are using emotions of fear and sympathy to get those people to support doing away with guns. They won't suceed. Those on the right are using emotions of fear and anger to get those people to want to attack with violence, fearing their rights will be taken away. They won't suceed.

These "political pundits" are the worst traitors of all. They are manipulating, they are lying, they are twisting and distorting (both sides). Instead of banning guns, it would be great if we could ban political pundits and require that the news actually be the news instead of opinions spewed for the purpose of manipulation (from both sides).

Thank you for your well written post. I am not 100% sure of any political leader and am happy to be in good company.

Originally posted by Carreau
George Washington, Alexander Hamilton

I would consider these men Patriots and they seceded from a tyrannical Government.

George Washington was a tyrant and banking puppet himself. Same with Hamilton... Horrible people.

He signed the first "federal reserve" into law.....

The First Bank of the United States was a central bank, chartered for a term of twenty years, by the United States Congress on February 25, 1791. Establishment of the Bank was included in a three-part expansion of federal fiscal and monetary power (along with a federal mint and excise taxes) championed by Alexander Hamilton, first Secretary of the Treasury. Hamilton believed a central bank was necessary to stabilize and improve the nation's credit, and to improve handling of the financial business of the United States government under the newly enacted Constitution.

en.wikipedia.org...

And oppressed Americans.....

The Whiskey Rebellion, or Whiskey Insurrection, was a tax protest in the United States beginning in 1791, during the presidency of George Washington. Farmers who used their leftover grain and corn in the form of whiskey as a medium of exchange were forced to pay a new tax. The tax was a part of treasury secretary Alexander Hamilton's program to increase central government power, in particular to fund his policy of assuming the war debt of those states which had failed to pay. The farmers who resisted, many war veterans, were fighting for the principles of the American Revolution, in particular against taxation without local representation.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

An American patriot is loyal first to the NATION that is his state. His loyalty is primarily to state sovereignty.

THAT is what an American patriot is. The federal government is established by the contractual agreement made by the US constitution which UNIFIES the states. The UNION is not our country. It is a UNION of nations.

The federal government is not a country. It is a civil service FOR the states. A representative agency.

It can not change laws. STATES do that. Period.

edit on 20-1-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)

You are incorrect. After the civil war, we ceased to be a conglomeration of independent states. States still have the ability to make certain laws, but they are bound by the laws set forth by the nation as a conglomeration of states.
It is no longer "The United States are", now (since the 1860's) "The United States IS". We are singular, not plural.

they exist BECAUSE we have a government. If we had no government, you would have no services.
Unless you are able to exist, on your own, without any services that exist, you are a hypocrite. You are showing that you do not exist on your own because you are right here, right now.

Originally posted by Observor

So it is the patriotic duty of those that respect them and the spirit in which the constitution was written, to overthrow the government and institute a new one in its place. Secession is as good a move as any. Once the corrupt federal government falls, a new one can be instituted with better checks and balances to ensure this exact scenario doesn't repeat.

edit on 20-1-2013 by Observor because: (no reason given)

No, if you secede, you are not a patriot, you are a traitor. These are not made up definitions, they are the actual definitions. You are attributing meanings that don't exist.

Any state that secedes from the United States is a state of Traitors. Just as we were traitors to the British Crown, you will be traitors to the United States and the US Constitution. Sure, you can be a "patriot" to the "Nation of Texas", but you will be a traitor to the United States and to the Constitution. It is your choice, but you can't call it something it isn't.

reply to post by nwtrucker

The term patriot is overused, but it does have one quality and that's the concept of something greater than "self'.

That concept is non-existent in the "left'. After all criticism is sooo much easier. Drink more water....

No, it isn't. You actually make 0 sense. The left wing is all about community and caring about others. The greater good is valued over what can benefit ONLY themselves.

The right wing is statism, because any form of capitalism requires a state for it to exist. That's the only thing they believe is greater than themselves. A state to protect capitalist interests.

Originally posted by FissionSurplus
Boy howdy.....this happens so rarely for me here on ATS.....I do not wish to be rude, but I disagree with absolutely everything you wrote.

The government as it was set up by the founding fathers, and the bastardized, diseased, fascist state we have now, are two completely different things. Therefore, a true patriot would wish to see things rectified, and not go along with the status quo.

To me, a true patriot sees the current state of affairs and desires nothing more than to see it corrected back to its original form.

I don't see where seceeding from a diseased, cancerous mess is unpatriotic, either.

corrected back to its original form?????........so....women no longer allowed to vote, you can own slaves, only white men can own land, 18 year olds that go to war cannot vote

with all due respect to what you are getting at....our liberties here in america have been greatly expanded, not reduced. there is 1 law i think that 99% of the people think should be done away with, or, severly edited...and that is the NDAA.....the national defense authorization act...there are some truly nazi-esque powers given over to the US government....maybe, just maybe.....the "cliff", the "guns", the "debt limit" are all the rage now, because a revolt against the NDAA would take away the power they truly desire. this is what i consider the most dangerous threat, we as citizens, are now facing....
www.huffingtonpost.com...

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

The Ops is correct..it is literally impossible to consider yourself a patriot of the united states, and its constitutional government if you are demanding secession..you are by definition, a traitor...like the founding fathers were to their government when they did their thing, and like the southern generals were when they lost the civil war.

The founding fathers didn't set up a "Union", they set up a confederation of states and most of them were quite jealous of their separate state's autonomy,

There may have been more autonomy back then, but the preamble tends to make it pretty clear.
"we the people of these united states, in order to make a more perfect union, ...etc"

Now Lincoln certainly solidified this nation as a whole. each state enjoys some autonomy, however it is part of the whole and is part of the fabric of what the US is overall
Gettysburg tends to articulate this very well.
"that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. "

The government is just that...of, by, and for the people...regardless of who is in office at the time, the government structure is basically us...its by us, made of us, and for us...and that government of yesteryear os the same as today.
So, secessionheads are not wanting to leave Obama..they are wanting to leave the government of my ancestors, the one established in the constitution and articulated with the blood of the civil war.

Patriots change, traitors speak of secession. This is simply how it is.

reply to post by HopSkipJump

they (perks) exist BECAUSE we have a government. If we had no government, you would have no services. Unless you are able to exist, on your own, without any services that exist, you are a hypocrite. You are showing that you do not exist on your own because you are right here, right now.

Government doesn't invent anything, they just regulate PEOPLE'S inventions. How do you know that if government hadn't taken control of Tesla's inventions we wouldn't all be enjoying FREE electricity right now, plus many other perks of his genius? And he's just one.

Find me one government employee ~ just one, on this list of famous inventors.
www.buzzle.com...

Me a hypocrite? Well at least I don't think we're all too stupid to breathe on our own like you apparently do.

The big problem as I see it is that we DO NOT GET TO CHOOSE OUR LEADERS. We get to choose between the Democrat thieving liar or the Republican thieving liar who are shoved down our throats by the corrupt system. This is because the corrupt political system depends on HUGE cash donations from corrupt corporations. Thus an honest independent candidate will never get elected.

Once we decouple the corporate cash from the political system, then we will have a shot at honest representative government again. ALL money donated should be anonymous. It should be put into a pool and distributed to ALL candidates equally. This should happen at both the state and national levels.

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by FissionSurplus
Boy howdy.....this happens so rarely for me here on ATS.....I do not wish to be rude, but I disagree with absolutely everything you wrote.

The government as it was set up by the founding fathers, and the bastardized, diseased, fascist state we have now, are two completely different things. Therefore, a true patriot would wish to see things rectified, and not go along with the status quo.

To me, a true patriot sees the current state of affairs and desires nothing more than to see it corrected back to its original form.

I don't see where seceeding from a diseased, cancerous mess is unpatriotic, either.

corrected back to its original form?????........so....women no longer allowed to vote, you can own slaves, only white men can own land, 18 year olds that go to war cannot vote

with all due respect to what you are getting at....our liberties here in america have been greatly expanded, not reduced. there is 1 law i think that 99% of the people think should be done away with, or, severly edited...and that is the NDAA.....the national defense authorization act...there are some truly nazi-esque powers given over to the US government....maybe, just maybe.....the "cliff", the "guns", the "debt limit" are all the rage now, because a revolt against the NDAA would take away the power they truly desire.

edit on 20-1-2013 by jimmyx because: (no reason given)

You do make some good points. We cannot revert to the original form, but we can revert to the Constitution only and do away with additional laws that have been written and rewrite them in accordance with the Constitution. The ammendments that have been made can all stand as they are, it is the additional laws that exist that have caused issue.
The NDAA does need to be revoked as does the Patriot Act and millions of other acts and laws.
The US Constitution still holds true, it is the foundation upon which we exist as a nation. Depending on the culture of the time and the way the laws are interpreted, many that were "just" 50 years ago, 100 years ago or whatever the case may be, could be considered unconstitutional today. The Constitution isn't our "problem", the laws, acts and regulations that are outdated, proposed, recently enacted and distorted are the real problems.

I'd be comfortable with doing away with each and every law as it presently exists and rewriting only what is needed and those new laws being approved of by the people. Then, we could start over and do things right, fixing all the problems that have been created over the past 200 years.

No riders allowed, no manipulative language allowed, just the law addressing the issue it is supposed to address with no distortions, no twisting, no turning, no clauses to allow for certain people to get away with certain things. That would be the course I would support 100% , but it isn't likely to happen