US, War, China, and the European GPS System

Originally posted by AceOfBase
How can your GPS help your allies if you shut the system down or jam the signals?That's what they're asking the EU to do.

You can selectivly jam it over the conflict region and friendly units can still acess the data as they would have the scrambling algo.

The challenges we are facing from asteroid and comet threats in space are far more serious than ideological conflicts. We need to be working together as a planet to face these challenges, not wasting time and effort fighting each other. No single nation can construct the infrastructure to face the challenge of planetary defense. We need to sit down, resolve our differences, and quarantine terrorist states- then get on with building a credible worldwide space force. The EU is duplicating effort with Galileo, the US is acting like Josey Wales in a world of hurt, and whoever is trying to divide us needs to be ignored out of the picture. The UN was started to prevent war and get us to work together on global issues, but its a paper tiger. Imagine where we'd be by now if the US hadn't had to fight Europeans twice in the last century, and if science instead of ideology had been the decisive force in human history! May global conflict between superpowers never happen again- and may destiny allow us to escape from the fate of dinosaurs.

Well the US thinks it owns every thing already anyway..
So an attitude like this is not a surprize really now is it?

GIMME,GIMME, ME, ME, ME!! (Should be the US national anthem)

Having said all that about the US "helping" allies... the US doesn't allow anyone to get the full accuracy out of their GPS.. they up the margin of error for poeple leasing use.

Where as China would have a 33% stake in the Gallileo system and would have full access to it.

[edit on 26/10/2004 by Corinthas]

As far as singling out China - anyone with halff a brain understands that China is the biggest threat to the US in the future, so it shouldn't be that shocking that they were mentioned.

u think china is a threat to the US, is it because china is "communism" (well,i don't think china is a communism country)or because china is growing too powerful.
IMO,if not for communism,china should be much stronger than what it is now.

The moment the US attacks EU will be end of American hegemony in this world. Space in the 21st cen will be the oceans of the 19th century. Whoever controls space will rule the world. Any attack on any space installation in the 21st century (when that technology becomes available) will be not be seen any differently than an attack on a warship today.


[edit on 26-10-2004 by white_raven0]

We would shut it down. Our Military would not be affected. Galileo is (in EU Countries) for Civilian Use only.
Our Armies still use GPS.
If it was ever used for military purposes, I guess we could disable specific Country's Codes while leaving ours operational.
And then again. We are part of Nato and as long as the US is not the Agressor, we would definetly help.

[edit on 26/10/04 by tsuribito]

Originally posted by tsuribito
We would shut it down. Our Military would not be affected. Galileo is (in EU Countries) for Civilian Use only.

But whats to prevent them from using Galileo for thier military? If China is an investment partner they are intitled to use it. The bombs won't care what signal they get. GLOSNASS is another system that has not been talked about either. It falls into the "what if" realm as well. However, they don't have enuf satelites in orbit as it is anyway

look i dont see why we shouldnot have our own GPS , sure the enemy can try and use the satalites against you but we can just take thier codes away and one question i would like to know the answer is if A country in NATO attacked B country but was using the american stalites to guide its weapons and troops would america turn their ones off?

Originally posted by tsuribito
We would shut it down. Our Military would not be affected. Galileo is (in EU Countries) for Civilian Use only.
Our Armies still use GPS.
If it was ever used for military purposes, I guess we could disable specific Country's Codes while leaving ours operational.
And then again. We are part of Nato and as long as the US is not the Agressor, we would definetly help.

as long as the US is not the Aggressor hehe

that'll be up to interpretation

[edit on 26-10-2004 by white_raven0]

I don't see why this is not obvious and would not be done by the Europeans too.

Hmm, your at war with a country and destroy a radar/satellite (gps) that the enemy is using to target u and your assets-HELLO MCFLY-ANYONE HOME!

Now if it were possible to jam them-better or if the EU restricted -i.e. cut off their access, fine-else Yeah-it goes. Remember, in war, if you can blind your enemy-you do it!

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
I don't see why this is not obvious and would not be done by the Europeans too.

so they should cause chaos and ruiin years of money to stop the chinese knowing where they are?

Originally posted by AceOfBase

Originally posted by American Mad Man

That is the difference - the US has this thing called loyalty, so when Canada or the UK or even France or Germany were attacked, not only would our GPS system not be working against them, it would be working for them because we would be helping them.

How can your GPS help your allies if you shut the system down or jam the signals?
That's what they're asking the EU to do.

Because we don't let just anyone use it. We won't let China use it for their weapons. We let our allies use it and thats it.

Thats exactly what the US is saying here. If you let these other nations in on your system, then understand if we were to go to war with them we will take out your sats to deny use to our enemy.

The solution? DON'T LET POTENTIAL ENEMIES USE YOUR SYSTEM!

Originally posted by suihx
u think china is a threat to the US, is it because china is "communism" (well,i don't think china is a communism country)or because china is growing too powerful.
IMO,if not for communism,china should be much stronger than what it is now.

I and every other person who looks at it can tell you that China is the very biggest threat to the US in the world.

Russia is just starting to make a come back. The EU won't fight us. China on the other hand, has a larger army then the US, a growing economy, a growing need for the same resources as the US, a modernization plan for it's military and - above all - a lot of areas of potential conflict.

As far as communism, that is not what threatens the US the most - it is Chinas ambition to directly rival the US.

As far as Communism holding you back, I agree

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I and every other person who looks at it can tell you that China is the very biggest threat to the US in the world.

- That may be so in absolute terms but come on AMM the level of that 'threat' to the USA is actually very tiny.

Russia is just starting to make a come back.

- ....and for all that Russia's 'threat' is miniscule.

The EU won't fight us.

- True, but no doubt you have some zealot nutcases working hard to provoke this.

China on the other hand, has a larger army then the US,

- Ooooh lots and lots of barely literate troops and shiny T55/62/72 era tanks, wow.

a growing economy,

- That is nevertheless several decades behind ours.

a growing need for the same resources as the US

- Which they are free to buy on the open markets and have never done anything different to this free trade on the open markets ......like the rest of us......is that too much of a problem?

Too 'threatening' for you/anyone?

a modernization plan for it's military

- With a budget that is a tiny tiny fraction of the US's budget.

What was that about the USA outspending the next 35 countries' military budgets combined AMM?

and - above all - a lot of areas of potential conflict.

- Yeah!

Especially when there's a bunch of aggressive fools in the USA looking for every way possible to turn them into the new Soviet Union and see trouble everywhere it can.

As far as communism, that is not what threatens the US the most - it is Chinas ambition to directly rival the US.

As far as Communism holding you back, I agree

- Oh get over it AMM.

There are no real communists left anymore.

This story is a total crock

The USA could not attack the Euro GPS system as the debris from that system would knock out every other satellite in the geo-stationary 'belt'.....which means just about every valuable satellite going.

It would also mean space was out for everybody for decades if not a few centuries.

Far far more likely is that were conflict ever to come the US would be aided by their EU friends by feeding false and distorted data to the Chinese.....the very suspicion that the system was corrupt would be sufficient to remove it's value to them anyway.

Naturally this all implies that we would be stupid enough to find ourselves in yet another seriously ruinous war where we used the excuse of a little additional expense in the raw materials markets to justify the expenditure of billions in a major war.

What a bunch of fecked up greedy dumb a$$ idiots we must be.

Helmutt
It�s never the same satellites over a given area all the time.

I dont think you understand what GEO means.
It stands for Geostationary Earth Orbit, hence the word "stationary".
The satellite is far enough out (22,300 mi) that it orbits the earth at the same speed that the earth turns on its axis. In other words it circles the world at the same speed the worls turns, hence it appears to be a fixed object.

i got a report on this.the chinese diplomacy spokesman said that the assumption the system will be put into Military use is ridiculous.the cooperation with the EU is not targeted at a third party,and the "cold war"
thought shall be abondoned.(this is my translation)
the US is sparing no effort to delay china's advancement of space tech, the threatening to the EU is also for such purpose.although in the forseeable future,it is unlikely that the US and China will have war.

The USA could not attack the Euro GPS system as the debris from that system would knock out every other satellite in the geo-stationary 'belt'.....which means just about every valuable satellite going.

Umm... 'could not' is incorrect. There are existant means that leave no debris. I will not answer queries on the number or nature of such means. The real issue though is not technical means, but the lack of respectful dialogue between nations we are witnessing.

The United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs (UNOOSA) is the United Nations office responsible for promoting international cooperation in the peaceful uses of outer space. The Office serves as the secretariat for the General Assembly's only committee dealing exclusively with international cooperation in the peaceful uses of outer space: the Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space (UNCOPUOS). The Committee has two subcommittees: the Scientific and Technical Subcommittee and the Legal Subcommittee.

Does this global body lack the real power to approve/disapprove space projects, in the way the global community now allocates radio frequencies to prevent interference? Are they asleep at the switch? Why has this situation come to the point of threat/counterthreat?

The USA is a huge market for the Chinese. Any kind of physical conflict would not be in China's economic- or military- best interest.

[edit on 26-10-2004 by Chakotay]

[edit on 26-10-2004 by Chakotay]

chakotay
Does this global body lack the real power to approve/disapprove space projects, in the way the global community

No.

The UN is like a speed limit, if you follow it there wont be any problems, But when no ones looking (cops), you can always gun it, and when someones looking (cops) you slow back down and they never knew you broke the rules.

China fights back as saying the US thought of them using it for military purposes is "Absurd".

China fires back

Personally I think they will use it for military.

I think now there just trying to cover there own asses, in hopes that they are still in on the program with the EU. Because the EU would be pretty pissed if china uses it for bombs and the US takes out the satellite network because of them.

Originally posted by geocom
I find that the only thing that is really scary about this scenario is the people that will potentially make the decision that China is hostile.

geo

Chinese officials have stated that war is inevitable with the US, and they prefer to have the upper hand. It is no secret that this is what the CHinese have wanted for a long time. I am all for this plan, if China tries to use these sats, shoot them down.

[edit on 27-10-2004 by Muaddib]