R.I.P Britannia

Originally posted by UK Wizard
Source: Mail on Sunday

Oh dear.

British people are so proud it's unbelievable. Everyone wants Egnland to remain this mighty independant island. Racism everywhere.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

What cultural changes would most bother you?

Its a tough question, its the thought of people I have not elected determining my fate. What would a centralised European Government care about house prices in the north of England. Its just too big to be effective.

Originally posted by earthtone

Oh dear.

British people are so proud it's unbelievable. Everyone wants Egnland to remain this mighty independant island. Racism everywhere.

Hey thats not fair, although I dont agree with people like UKwizard they do have genuine fears and cant be discounted.
'I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend with my life your right to say it' Voltaire (paraphrased)

Originally posted by UK Wizard
looks like i've stirred up a hornets nest

- Naa, not really Wizard.

It's just the usual predictable anti-EU disinformation and a sprinkling of the nationalistic idiocy typified by sc2112's aggressive little attitudes.

Fortunately Alf Garnet characters (Archie Bunker for the US readership) like cs2112 are yesterday's people.

we never voted on the EU, we voted to join the EEC,

- Hmm, I think you'll find that the move from EEC to EU was incorporated and part of the manifestos of the major UK political parties in the relevant general elections at the time so technically the people of the UK did vote to join the EU, actually.

No use trying to pull this fancy-footwork nonsense that's how UK parliamentary democracy works.....which your anti-EU chums claim to love so much and wish to contine.

a vote now would see us withdraw from the EU

- LMAO. This is plainly just wrong, in fact it's delusional crap.

The very reason why the anti-EU mob have to sculk around attempting to chip and quibble away at the various 'issues' - as opposed to actually attempting to stand on the issue of leaving the EU - is because even they know they would lose a straight in or out vote.

They hate the very idea of any of the coming votes (whether it be the new constitution of the euro for that matter) being turned into a genuine in or out vote cos they know they'd lose.....and lose heavily.

Simon Heffer and Peter Hitchins are excellent writers, who aren't afraid of what they say,

- Sorry, these two are just weird to the point of being very very funny.....sadly tragic too but funny just the same.

IMHO they represent all that is hysterically funny about the current UK 'right'.

They could hardly be further from the views of the 'nation' they claim to love so much.....but then, let's be brutally honest, the truth is they cannot abide the people of the UK as we actually are.

have you even read the article in the Spectator, if not then you can't really judge it can you

- Yes I have read it....why are you saying I haven't? It was appalling. Jayzuss you know it had to be incredibly bad when even Michael Howard insisted it was offensive rubbish from start to finish!

The Mail was famously one of the UK's Hitler supporting rags.....and some might say it's instincts remain similar- ish.

To even associate the Daily Mail or Mail on Sunday with Hitler - ish ideals is simply.... nutty

- Well the fact is that that is the historical truth.

They were supporters of Hitler back then, the association is their own and a historical fact. Sorry but there you are, it's the true facts of the matter. I totally agree it was nutty of them to align themselves that way but they did.

guess i'm a cretin then

- Misguided is more like it I'd say.

the french Government is quite happy to let illegal immigrants/asylum seekers out of it's borders into Britain

- The fact that the UK had such a large empire means that the UK has an established immigrant community from practically every part of the globe.

That was why immigrants wanted to come to the UK specifically. Were you in their shoes you would most likely want to do the same rather than establish a new community in continental Europe.

Naturally the fact that over the last 40yrs both France and Germany have taken more immigrants than the UK is a little truth those that wish to use the asylum issue quietly forget......along with the fact that Songatt was closed with French help or the suffering of those people that brought them to the UK.......or for that matter that many (Kosovo for instance) have gone back now that the fighting has stopped.

UKIP answer some points

Trade

Not at all! The EU member states do not trade just amongst themselves, but with countries throughout the world.

- This is true but membership involves not having one's produce loaded with import tarriffs. How many UK firms can you imagine deliberately choosing to have their goods and services loaded with the extra costs that would be imposed upon them by being outside the EU?

Then there is the not so small matter that 80% of Europe's total trade actually is done internally.

Although Switzerland and Norway are not members, both do proportionately more trade with the EU than we do; this doesn't say much for the so-called 'advantages' of our EU membership

- This is an absurd mish-mash of 'points'. IMO it's just typical of the incredibly shallow and utterly superficial adolescent 'thinking' that passes for political analysis these days.

Neither country have a say in what goes on in the EU at all. Theymust simply implement any relevant EU rules and regulations as they come from the EU if they wish to continue to trade.

If they wish to engage they must do so absolutely on the EU's terms as they have no seats in any of the various centres of power.

Nor are either country coming from a point where they have once had full membership and then subsequently left which would be the case for the UK under UKIP's 'vision'.

How the hell is even less power in Europe meant to improve the UK's position in Europe?!

Financial -

Britain pays �25 million a day into the EU budget. Yes, we get some money back, but this is mostly in the form of 'grants' for projects that are not always of our choosing, and market-distorting farm subsidies. We are effectively begging for our own money.

- Of course this ludicrously simplistic and childish outlook utterly ignores the wealth generated with the EU for the UK by the cross continental single market and the ease of such trade due to the single market itself.

The �25 million a day 'membership fee' compared to the wealth that membership generates is peanuts.

EU tax harmonisation measures - especially the planned with holding tax - will do great damage to our financial institutions. The job losses that result won't be confined to the City of London

- Oh I see, they are holding out a planned tax for us to be afraid of but nothing else?

How about this?

Indirect taxes are low on the continent and if you have 3 or more kids direct taxes can be extremely low too (in France to the point of being almost non-existant).

Not that a shower of fools like UKIP - or their tory pals - would ever tell the UK public anything like that.

Influence -
Yes - if we stay in the EU! Britain is a member of the UN, NATO, G7/8 and other world organisations. When the EU becomes one country - with common economic, foreign and defence policies - Britain will lose its seat and its voice.

- That is a UKIP claim not a fact and for the most part it is a claim denied by all except them and (only some of) their mates in the tory party.

Of course there isn't the slightest recognition that the UK would gain a much greater voice (because of membership of the more powerful collective) in some cases.

But then IMO the truth is that this isn't about what is best for the UK and it's people. It's about maintaining power structures and ruling elites (those that have the real power) exactly as they are and the big fish in the little sea remaining just that.

Britain still attends International Monetary Fund meetings as a full member. Germany, France and other euro zone countries have had to give up their seats - their 'interests' are now represented by the European Central Bank!

- Yes that's all very interesting except.....who is the "European Central Bank" if it isn't Germany, France and the other Euro zone coutries?

The Pound stuck between the Euro and the Dollar trying to play one off against the other is no place to be.

We are European and in Europe we are equal partners with full voting rights on what is agreed.

Europe is, IMO, our future; any other option is a pale and very poor (for most) 2nd best IMO.

Originally posted by bigdanprice
Its a tough question, its the thought of people I have not elected determining my fate. What would a centralised European Government care about house prices in the north of England. Its just too big to be effective.

Did you know that there are elections for the EU parliament?
In fact, the last one was on June, did you vote?

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by bigdanprice
Its a tough question, its the thought of people I have not elected determining my fate. What would a centralised European Government care about house prices in the north of England. Its just too big to be effective.

Did you know that there are elections for the EU parliament?
In fact, the last one was on June, did you vote?

I did vote as a matter of fact but the influence and credibility of our MEPs are limited at best. This is the point. They are not respected or taken seriously. I am talking about the next stage where they began to decide tax and economic policy, defense and the whole kit and kaboodle. I just dont want anymore because what we have got is corrupt and not respected.

Originally posted by bigdanprice

its the thought of people I have not elected determining my fate. What would a centralised European Government care about house prices in the north of England. Its just too big to be effective.

- Yeah but if you think about it dan that applies to the entire continent excepting the very core so, in a sense, we're all 'the north of England'.

Given that Europe hasn't got the same class issues raging as the UK I'd be pretty confident that the north of England would do fine.

The return of a tory government would, for instance, IMO be much more damaging to the north of England (again) than the EU ever would be .....or ever has been.

Certainly I don't see them taking measures just based on yet more pointless 'bolstering' of the SE of England selfishly for votes as happens with the tory crowd.

the influence and credibility of our MEPs are limited at best. This is the point. They are not respected or taken seriously.

- I'd say this is the point alright dan but a different point entirely.

The national governments of Europe don't want a powerful Euro parliament. They want to and do retain all meaningful powers at home so to speak. This is what is so ludicrous about the anti-EU crowd's message.

The so-called 'democratic deficit' within the EU is precisely because the national governments wish to retain powers within their own parliaments and do not want a more powerful EU parliament/Commission etc etc.

I am talking about the next stage where they began to decide tax and economic policy, defense and the whole kit and kaboodle.

- Co-operation can always seem scary. But basically you 'give' a little to gain a lot.

Take the currency for instance.

Nearly every right-winger there ever was in the UK insists on seeing 'black wednesday' (when the UK was ejected from the ERM) as the opposite of what it was.

They claim it showed the dangers of collectivisation with such a sensitive and fundamental area of national activity.

The fact is, however, that it was the proof that national sovereignty in the money markets was an illusion and that the small and medium sized individual nation states (like the UK) had very very little actual power (or sovereignty) in those international markets.

By joining together and forming the Euro those small and medium nation states have collectively moved from having little or no power to having genuine real and actual power. The Euro is now the 2nd world currency and has the potential - easily - to become the largest.

I believe the same will happen in other areas. I can see no reasonable basis for this ridiculous mania in Britain by some to assume the worst with Europe.....particularly in view of it's track record where it has done so much good across the continent - and the UK for that matter.

I just dont want anymore because what we have got is corrupt and not respected.

- Actually the level of 'fraud' in the EU (as annually quantified by the auditors) is pretty good. As a % it compares very well with the levels typical in the national governments.

I'd just like to state that i respect the pro-EU opinions of those on this thread, you've backed up your thoughts and beliefs rather than rant at the right as most people do. Unfortunatly being only 17, i have yet to ..... gain any real debating skill, so I'd like to apolgise to those who aren't here to defend the anti-EU point of view, I'm trying my best.

I am not completely opposed to the EU, if it could be cut down, have the powers it doesn't need taken away and be restructured properly it could achieve so much. But sadly the path it is taking is that of political correctness and needless burocracy.

A question on the euro - if the currency collapses won't the entire european economy collapse?

[edit on 24-10-2004 by UK Wizard]

I appreciate your input, I am taking a kind of devils advocate stand point on this. For instance: I know the Euro is right, but there is that little voice in my head that says, hey this is a big step. I support it and will vote for it, if the time is right, but people can say just because we can does it mean we should.

I disagree with hardliners like UKIP, but the reason they do so well is that people have genuine reservations that aren't neccessarily rational. The so called 'grey vote' for instance is a perfect example of this. You ignore people like this at your peril.

Posted by UK Wizard -

I'd just like to state that i respect the pro-EU opinions of those on this thread, you've backed up your thoughts and beliefs rather than rant at the right as most people do.

- Yeah it makes a nice change.

Unfortunatly being only 17, i have yet to ..... gain any real debating skill, so I'd like to apolgise to those who aren't here to defend the anti-EU point of view, I'm trying my best.

- Don't worry Wizard you're getting your views across well.

I am not completely opposed to the EU

- I don't know if you'd be surprised or not but for some it's become like a religion of hatred for the thing.

It's also worth bearing in mind that certain people prefer the US model of commerce/politics to the Euro one and see a well functioning Europe as a threat to US interests in Europe.....particularly with things like business practice laws. Hence the use of their political mates in the UK at various times to slow the project as much as possible and to encourage the UK to step out of things so they are less than they might have been.

IMO this is why the US owned media in the UK is so aggressively anti-EU.

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you like.

if it could be cut down, have the powers it doesn't need taken away and be restructured properly it could achieve so much.

- I wouldn't write it all off just yet. The EU in it's various guises has achieved a lot. All across the UK as well as the continent. Whatever it's faults (and something so large and important rarely escapes without flaws) people won't let that go without trying to respond to any valid criticisms.

But sadly the path it is taking is that of political correctness and needless burocracy.

- Maybe that is true in places but, consider this, I have never seen an example that justifies writing off the entire enterprise, have you....really?

question on the euro - if the currency collapses won't the entire european economy collapse?

- Well considering the scale of the undertaking it is perhaps surprising that the Euro's 'birthing wobbles' didn't persist longer.

The thing is the Euro is now so established that it's collapse would probably collapse the entire global economy which is a major reason why it couldn't and isn't going to happen. Like it or loathe it it's in everyones' interest now that it is an established reality never to allow that to happen...... even if it were possible.

Besides it is under-pinned by the single largest wealthiest political and commerce block in the world, why would it?

Originally posted by bigdanprice
I appreciate your input, I am taking a kind of devils advocate stand point on this. For instance: I know the Euro is right, but there is that little voice in my head that says, hey this is a big step. I support it and will vote for it, if the time is right, but people can say just because we can does it mean we should.

- Well we are where we are and the UK did not go in originally...and maybe that was, all things considered, the right thing as we did not really take much part in the preparations for the Euro barring the ill-fated short experiment with the ERM.

I think there is an honest and fair point in recognising that the long term future is almost certainly for us in the UK to be in and yet believing that now might not be the optimum time for UK entry.

I know that sounds a bit 'politician-speak' but I think there's reason and truth in that nevertheless.

I disagree with hardliners like UKIP, but the reason they do so well is that people have genuine reservations that aren't neccessarily rational. The so called 'grey vote' for instance is a perfect example of this. You ignore people like this at your peril.

- Well I'm afraid that whilst that's true dan I doubt too many people under 45 are going to go for this 'it's just Germany taking over, like Hitler' that runs as an under-current in much anti-EU 'thought' of a certain age.

No harm to them and you must always try and bring everyone along if possible but really for those that are convinced that a Europe of democratic nations freely co-operating together is just like a nazi tyranny there may be little hope....... and maybe we should stop debating as if they are the only constituency out there that would like to debate this.

As an American I hope that you don't. The United Kingdom has been our greatest ally for 140 years. Your country has always been there for us. I would also hate to see you lose the flair that your country presents. Growing up in Europe, the sense of civility and common sense that you show was a constant reminder of our history together.

.
Honestly this is a tough one.

There is something important in pride and independence.
There is something important in setting aside differences in favor of harmony.

I do worry about living in a homogenized world culture, but i also worry about the wars that can be created by blind pride and ignorance.

Maybe it takes special effort to hold on to National/Ethnic pride in an ever shrinking world village.

Maybe one should think of it as a chance to become the 'New United Kingdom'. That will soar to new unimagined heights of intellectual and technological prowess. [I of course am still favoring American prowess unless i feel compelled to move to Canada]

I guess it comes down to being 'the master of one's destiny'. But when has that ever been absolutely true for any Nation or individual? Never I think. Maybe it is more important to see what one can do given whatever constraints one lives under. Britain had minimal land and no adjacent lands to conquer, went on to become masters of the sea. And 'The sun never sets on the British Empire' was an actual fact. The agile mind always works to re-invent oneself. Have respect for heritage and past, learn and take from it what you can, then let go of it and reach for the future.

Like Frank Lloyd Wright's Usonian houses. They were wonderful for what could be done under buget contraints. The nimble and agile mind adapts, re-organizes, re-configures and sometimes re-places.

Some Americans think we will never become a back water country. Blindness to that possibility makes it more likely to happen and sooner rather than later. Knowing that we can become that means we have to do the work to insure that is not the case.

I guess a large part of the 'problem' is a sense of powerlessness. But in truth each of us, the entire species, the Universe itself are all insignificant in the bigger scheme of things. All one can do is take what one has at hand [at mind] and make the most of it. In a sense it is all in fun anyway, so enjoy it. And if you are ambitious make it as dramatic as possible.
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I thought this is relevant to the thread, the French are being childish...again

Link to Story

The fed-up French are sick of the English language taking over in Brussels.

Among the arguments for making French the official EU language, is the fact that it is the second most commonly-taught second language in the world, after English, and is an official working language for organisations such as Interpol, Amnesty International and the United Nations.

Why in God's name would they even try this, if people want to speak English and not French why bother try and change it

Originally posted by UK Wizard
Why in God's name would they even try this, if people want to speak English and not French why bother try and change it

- Now be fair; it's only some people complaining.

I know what you mean Wizard but it's kind of the same thing as we get in the UK when people complain about our traditions and way of life being lost or changed.

Some people just complain a lot about that kind of thing.....

.....but if most of their own public are the reason for the changes happening then they're really fighting a losing battle.

Its interesting that this doubts about the EU come from a country that is already an union, the UK.

Do you think that the powers of the UK over the nations that make the UK are bad for those nations?

Do you fear that this will happen with EU?

The UK was forged out of warfare, this is a totally different time and situation.
The EU is a host of natures each with its own cultures and traditions, and out look on the world. England Scotland Ireland and Wales were brought togther by Englands warlike ambitions.

The UKs political institutions where taken from England which had them long established, whilst in Europe we are stringing together nearly twenty countries systems together, I just cant see it working effectivley.

Originally posted by bigdanprice
The UK was forged out of warfare, this is a totally different time and situation.

- I agree dan.

The EU is a host of natures each with its own cultures and traditions, and out look on the world. England Scotland Ireland and Wales were brought togther by Englands warlike ambitions.

- Yes, these are very different beginings. The UK as a result, initially at least, of conquest and Europe from the most catastrophic repeated total warfare with itself.

The UKs political institutions where taken from England which had them long established, whilst in Europe we are stringing together nearly twenty countries systems together, I just cant see it working effectivley.

- .....and yet considering where we have come from we have managed to build, solely through the genuine co-operation and agreement of the separate democratic states, something amazing IMO. Something never before achieved.

The fact is it does work dan and it has done so for nearly 40yrs. It progresses and grows and develops but nevertheless whatever it's faults (and what system could be 'perfect' anyway?) it has gone from strength to strength.

470million people and the real potential to grow yet further to around 550millions.

That's amazing.

I didnt make myself clear, what we have at the moment is miraculous, though could be better, I was refering to a so called European Superstate, unified in the way the UK is.

Originally posted by bigdanprice
I didnt make myself clear, what we have at the moment is miraculous, though could be better, I was refering to a so called European Superstate, unified in the way the UK is.

-

I have to say I find all that superstate stuff puzzling; to the point of it being outright weird.

I know the members of the EU commission from time to time talk about such things but that doesn't surprise me, that is afterall their job to provoke debate about where things go next and one would expect them to.....

but

......not one of the national governments ever makes such proposals. PM's and Presidents all make nice noises about ever closer co-operation (which is not the same and surely completely fair enough) but I cannot honestly think of one serving head of state who has ever seriously proposed integration of the type the UK anti-EU crowd (always) claim is (always) just about to be forced on everyone.

The French wish to stay French as much as the Brits wish to stay Brits as much as the Germans wish to stay German....etc etc

[edit on 25-10-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Great Britain will never fall so long as the crows are still at the Tower of London!!!!

I think it will be a little bit before GB thinks about seriously joining the EU. I don't know many english who consider themselves "european." Relations between UK and US are much stronger than between EU and US. The UK is the bridge, so to speak, between the two. It has an incredibly powerful possition in that role. Unfortunately it's leaders dont seem to realize its true potential. If the countries were personified, I, as the UK, would play some power politics with my "gate keeper" position and see how far it takes me. Could lead to reform and the better development of the UK to be quite powerful. But if it doesnt work, I would join the EU.

So I think the UK has a couple different directions it could go before joining the EU and suspect that it will try to explore as many as it realizes before considering.