R.I.P Britannia

Source: Mail on Sunday: Front Page and Page 5

People say the Britain is being slowly consumed by the monster that is the EU.... and I agree with them.
Britain will soon surrender it's immigration and asylum policy to Brussels, who wishes a EU wide immigration and asylum policy.

This is reflected in a question put by MEP Nigel Farage to Peter Mandelson and other EU commisoners.

Nigel Farage asked:

Given that the EU constitution has been approved, what parts of it should we press ahead with now

Mr Mandelson replyed with:

The plan of Brussels is to implement as much of the constitution as they can before it has even been ratified. In Britain's case it is not just asylum, it is also justice and home affairs, where basically, we are seeing moves towards the European codification of criminal law.

A spokeman for Mr Blunkett confirmed that tomorrow's meeting would see Britain agreeing to surrender it's veto on asylum issues.

Why should we remain a member of a corrupt and Burocratic alliance that wish's to see the end to Britain's Sovereignty and replace it wish a politically correct mess it calls the EU constitution.

it's either

OR

Who do you put first, your own country or a alliance you never voted to join?

(Opinions are extra welcome from those not in Europe)



[edit on 24-10-2004 by UK Wizard]

This may be the reason why 150,000 - 175,000 'middle England' English people with families are emigrating every year. This is all well and good, but in a few years time the UK will start to suffer from a skills shortage, caused by disenchanted Brits abandoning the UK.

Another point is that if families are moving away with their children, then in future years there may also be a short fall in the public services in the UK. This will be due to well educated young people not being UK tax payers.

I dont put my country first, I think its time to consider our selfs as members of the Global Society, The market has already tied us up with eachother and the next step is to tear down the nationborders. I think Eu is a step in the right direction. Im very pleased with our new eastern europe members and I'm looking forward to hook up with the islamic world through Turkey.


[edit on 24-10-2004 by Kollapse]

I have no agreement with Racist, right wing scaremongering perputrated in the Daily Mail, and Mail on Sunday, Newspapers in the UK. They are reactionary and wrong...
ALTHOUGH...

People in the UK have always had a natrual distrust with Europe and its institutions, we have a history of warfare with them for thousands of years. Its ingrained in the natrual consciousness.
I have to say that I feel a distrust for Europe the way it is, its rife with corruption and frankly we just dont need it.
It is a high ideal to have a political consensus, but would a european centralised state care about how a fiscal policy would effect say a North West towns economy, its on too larger scale. Britain should be involved at every level but we should retain our soverignty, we have little in common with our European brothers, unlike america we dont share a language or common heritage. Britain has remained important status due to it being a bridge between the US and Europe politically and not just geographically.

I am not racist or isolationist I just see no benefit for the UK or Europe in futher intergration and I abhore the racist scaremongering of the Daily Mail.


[edit on 24-10-2004 by bigdanprice]

In a world that more and more gets under the rulings of the market (multinational corporations) I think its pretty important to coordinate the politics between the nations.

Originally posted by bigdanprice
I have no agreement with Racist, right wing scaremongering perputrated in the Daily Mail, and Mail on Sunday, Newspapers in the UK. They are reactionary and wrong...
ALTHOUGH...

Evidence of racism please, and there is nothing wrong with being right wing... extreme right wing is what must be feared

and remember everyone we haven't even voted on EU membership!

The Daily Mail is racist and right wing. It uses stories of evil muslims, money grabbing asylum seekers to tap into the miseducated fears of the middle classes. It is clinging on to a view of Britain that was dead twenty years ago, we are a rich, vibrant multicultural society, and all the better for it. Its unfortunate that people believe in the selective journalism of papers like this and the express. dont get me wrong I am not a wooly minded liberal, as Simon Heffer would probably call me; but I its a tabloid, the Sun or the Star in disguise. If you are right wing read the telegraph a paper with journalistic integrity.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
Source: Mail on Sunday: Front Page and Page 5

People say the Britain is being slowly consumed by the monster that is the EU.... and I agree with them.
Britain will soon surrender it's immigration and asylum policy to Brussels, who wishes a EU wide immigration and asylum policy.

This is reflected in a question put by MEP Nigel Farage to Peter Mandelson and other EU commisoners.

Nigel Farage asked:

Given that the EU constitution has been approved, what parts of it should we press ahead with now

Mr Mandelson replyed with:

The plan of Brussels is to implement as much of the constitution as they can before it has even been ratified. In Britain's case it is not just asylum, it is also justice and home affairs, where basically, we are seeing moves towards the European codification of criminal law.

A spokeman for Mr Blunkett confirmed that tomorrow's meeting would see Britain agreeing to surrender it's veto on asylum issues.

Why should we remain a member of a corrupt and Burocratic alliance that wish's to see the end to Britain's Sovereignty and replace it wish a politically correct mess it calls the EU constitution.

it's either

OR

Who do you put first, your own country or a alliance you never voted to join?

(Opinions are extra welcome from those not in Europe)



[edit on 24-10-2004 by UK Wizard]

- Hmm, the last place I would look for unbiased and full reporting on Europe is either The Mail, Sunday Mail, Telegraph , Sunday Telegraph, The Sun, The Sunday Times or the Times (in that order with all but the Times titles vying for most twisting, idiotic and outrageous, frequently).

The Mail was famously one of the UK's Hitler supporting rags.....and some might say it's instincts remain similar- ish.

I'm all for a UK in full equal cooperative partnership in Europe; which IMO is what we all have in the EU.

IMO this is a situation far superior to the (IMO) out-dated and potentially very dangerous small/medium competitive European 'nation states'.

Europe doesn't view the UK as the centre of the world. Europe hopes we'll participate but if we're dumb enough in the UK to leave well, ok, we are free to do so but it will be us that suffer.

Who do you put first, your own country or a alliance you never voted to join?

- But we did vote to join Wizard.

You might not have done because of your age but then you don't know the conditions that were existant that led to our joining. The UK share of world trade was plummeting. Neither Commonwealth nor any so-called 'free open world trade' nor membership of EFTA (oh yes we were in the 'it's just a trading group' thingy first) were any help in stopping the slide.

So we joined the EEC/EU, we then voted on the matter and voted yes as the only sane thing to do.

It obviously is news to you that during the vote there were people discussing how Europe would grow and develop. A 'United States of Europe' was discussed as a future possibility. Claims that 'everyone thought we were just joining a trading group' are a lie. We had been in one of those just before (EFTA). Andrew Neil (editor of the Scotsman and ex-editor of the Sunday Times) even wrote a book on this very subject at the time.

But the EU will carry on and we will still have to deal with them.....although the childish minds that think we'll retain all the benefits of full membership in this 'new relationship' might like to explain why they should disadvantage themselves by allowing the UK the same benfits we enjoyed before we left?
(Rather than degenerate to the 'dream' certain EU-haters have of merely becoming, er, well..... God knows what. Some seem to dream of traitoring our country completely to become akin to a mere US 'state'.)

A spokeman for Mr Blunkett confirmed that tomorrow's meeting would see Britain agreeing to surrender it's veto on asylum issues.

- Such pathetically loaded language - clearly intended for those who have given the issue of 'veto's ' no thought whatsoever. At present everybody has a veto. With 25 members now that is simply unworkable. So now we are agreeing to move to weighted majority voting. It makes sense and it will work.

......and what sort of cretin thinks that the other EU countries aren't interested in coming up with a sensible and workable asylum system anyway?

You see? We haven't 'surrendered' anything. We're dumping methods now unworkable in the new circumstances the increased membership has brought.

But, if you want to continue to complain about a 'version' of the EU - as you see it - feel free but you might at least consider the other points of view on the matter.

- By the way by all accounts it was The Mail's Simon Heffer who embarrassed tory MP and shadow cabinet minister Boris Johnson by being the actual writer of that rubbish about Ken Bigley and Liverpool in the Spectator last week.

Heffer is one of the UK media's so-called 'young fogeys', who, along with that other risible figure Peter Hitchins is one of the Mail's most ludicrously out of touch writers. A man who cannot bear the UK as it actually is today and who continues to get paid a fortune for his never ending dreary essays about how Britain has some attainable 'golden age' if only we......blah blah blah.









[edit on 24-10-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

sminkey pinky, that was what I was trying to say but you said it so much better...

bigdanprice and sminkypingy


Mod Edit: Removed Personal attack, Bad Language. This member has been warned.

[edit on 24-10-2004 by UM_Gazz]

looks like i've stirred up a hornets nest

we never voted on the EU, we voted to join the EEC, a vote now would see us withdraw from the EU

Simon Heffer and Peter Hitchins are excellent writers, who aren't afraid of what they say, have you even read the article in the Spectator, if not then you can't really judge it can you

The Mail was famously one of the UK's Hitler supporting rags.....and some might say it's instincts remain similar- ish.

To even associate the Daily Mail or Mail on Sunday with Hitler - ish ideals is simply.... nutty

......and what sort of cretin thinks that the other EU countries aren't interested in coming up with a sensible and workable asylum system anyway?

guess i'm a cretin then , the french Government is quite happy to let illegal immigrants/asylum seekers out of it's borders into Britain

although you won't like my source, UKIP answer some points

Trade

Not at all! The EU member states do not trade just amongst themselves, but with countries throughout the world. Although Switzerland and Norway are not members, both do proportionately more trade with the EU than we do; this doesn't say much for the so-called 'advantages' of our EU membership

Finacial

Britain pays �25 million a day into the EU budget. Yes, we get some money back, but this is mostly in the form of 'grants' for projects that are not always of our choosing, and market-distorting farm subsidies. We are effectively begging for our own money. EU tax harmonisation measures - especially the planned with holding tax - will do great damage to our financial institutions. The job losses that result won't be confined to the City of London

Influence

Yes - if we stay in the EU! Britain is a member of the UN, NATO, G7/8 and other world organisations. When the EU becomes one country - with common economic, foreign and defence policies - Britain will lose its seat and its voice. Britain still attends International Monetary Fund meetings as a full member. Germany, France and other euro zone countries have had to give up their seats - their 'interests' are now represented by the European Central Bank!

[edit on 24-10-2004 by UK Wizard]

cs2112 - interesting points total you have. I've never seen one in the minuses before.

I'm somewhat ignorant of British social and economic issues as pertains to the EU, but I can make these few observations off the bat:

1) The EU is very young. It's only been a decade. You guys are taking often very old national structures and adapting the to a new transnational structure. It's normal that there will be birthing pains. It'll still be a while before the EU finds ideal balance between maintained national sovereignties and a continental structure.

2) The EU, in my view, will provide European nations - and the world - with an economic and political alternative to the United States (no offence to the Americans, but the U.S. can't be the only big kid in the sandbox). Britain has enough clout and presence, economically, historically and politically, to take the EU a long way on the road to achieving this. On the flipside, we are still in a post-WWII world where the great nations of Europe - Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Spain - can no longer expect to be world heavyweights by themselves.

Originally posted by bigdanprice
People in the UK have always had a natrual distrust with Europe and its institutions, we have a history of warfare with them for thousands of years. Its ingrained in the natrual consciousness.

The UK may had lots of wars with other European countries, but it also has the oldest aliance in the world between two countries with Portugal.

Also, its normal that a country with the geographic situation of the UK should have problems only with other European countries, I do not think that the UK could be at war with China in the 15th century.

And you forget that most of those wars were caused by religious or "family" reasons, as most European countries share the origin of their royal families.

Originally posted by BillyTheCat
This may be the reason why 150,000 - 175,000 'middle England' English people with families are emigrating every year. This is all well and good, but in a few years time the UK will start to suffer from a skills shortage, caused by disenchanted Brits abandoning the UK.

Where are those families emigrating to?

If they are emigrating to other members of the EU then that is not the same as if they are emigrating to the USA or other country.

Originally posted by ArMaP
Where are those families emigrating to?

Spain, Australia and America are the main countries i think

So if the EU opens it's borders ...

... would you do the USA a little favor and grant membership to Mexico?

Cheap Labor, an entire government that gives new meaning to corruption, a great way to expand your population (6-12 children on average per family!) very little education so they are ignorant of employment laws, well, laws in general as law does not really exist in Mexico.

And of course, they are kinda like Spain!

Originally posted by cs2112

bigdanprice and sminkypingy
why dont you F@@k off and live someplace else . when Britannia does rule again, and she will, people like you will be the first to be dealt with.

A daily mail reader me thinks. I am proud of my country, how dare you talk like that. This is a discussion and I am airing my views. A right that the people of Britain have fought and died for over so many years. If that is all you can come up with then I suggest you take your own advice.

Good question. About half of the number are moving to other EU countries. This is because:

1. Home ownership is generally cheaper.

2. Taxation is lower.

3. The general cost of living is lower.

4. Education is better.

5. Health care is better

6. In most cases the weather is better!!!!!

The other half are going to the traditional locations such as the US, Canada, New Zealand, Australia etc etc

If the EU is supposed to be a level playing field, why is it that other EU countires are more attractive than the UK, due to the above factors???

Originally posted by ArMaP
The UK may had lots of wars with other European countries, but it also has the oldest aliance in the world between two countries with Portugal.

Also, its normal that a country with the geographic situation of the UK should have problems only with other European countries, I do not think that the UK could be at war with China in the 15th century.

And you forget that most of those wars were caused by religious or "family" reasons, as most European countries share the origin of their royal families.

Yes I agree, but all I was trying to express is that we feel very little in common with European nations, its a matter of national consciousness. Thats not to say we dont respect and appreciate co-operation. Its a question of wether we want to be controlled from within Europe. I think the level we have now is fine and we should retain the final say in our own countries.I totally appreciate your point though.

Its important to think of the global perspective, we can have politcal clout on the world stage through consensus there is no need for shared soverignty.

I can understand the reasons why a European union is necessary, but I can also understand the reluctance of any nation's members to soften sovereignty. At some point in time I fully expect that the Americas will look to such an alliance also, and while economically it may better the poor nations, I dread the day that Canada goes into such talks because it signals a change in ideals and autonomy by placing them in the hands of others. I happen to like our association with Britain and the monarchy and our French culture too, but that would be entirely lost.

What cultural changes would most bother you?