Can the non-religious and the religious ever live in the same world?

I started to put this in religious conspericy but thought this would be better.

I cant help but wonder, with the Muslim Fanatics killing every non-believer they can get their hands on and so many threads here about the Christians Fanatics demanding that everyone conform to their beliefs, will the religious and non-believers ever be able to co-exist?

What would it take for this to happen? I think our Founding Fathers had the right idea seperating the two, but it seems that even that is not enough.

You have some claiming that it means NO RELIGION in public.

And you have others claiming that it only means you can worship THEIR God in the manner you choose.

It seems a lot like the fifth admendment in that it means different things to different people.

That does not even take into effect the WORLD stage where people are KILLING each other in the name of THEIR God. No matter what you might think of Christians at least they have appeared to have outgrown THAT.

Then you have countries like Mexico and most of the South American countries where people are Breeding like flies, into familes that can not feed HALF the children they have, but the Catholic church says "NO BIRTH CONTROL"

It just seems to me that most of the troubles happening today have at their roots the conflict of religions vs each other or religions vs non-religions

Can the world go on like it is? People having 10-15 kids and sucide bombers with nukes and God on their side?

Lets keep this nice OK

[edit on 23-10-2004 by Amuk]

Originally posted by Amuk
You have some claiming that it means NO RELIGION in public.

That does not even take into effect the WORLD stage where people are KILLING each other in the name of THEIR God. No matter what you might think of Christians at least they have appeared to have outgrown THAT.

Then you have countries like Mexico and most of the South American countries where people are Breeding like flies, into familes that can not feed HALF the children they have, but the Catholic church says "NO BIRTH CONTROL"

I like the idea of this thread, and I think it can bring up some good points, but there are some things in your post that I would like to add to or comment on. Okay... here goes:

1) There are Muslim fanatics, and there are Christian fanatics - there are fanatics from just about every religion. Christians and Muslims both kill people.

2) The idea of no religion in public is somewhat sad. I'm not Christian, nor do I choose to display my religion publicaly, but I see no problem with public displays. It's history, pride, and religion is about people, and for someone to be offended by a public statue, or a virgin mary in someone's yard is crazy. Seeing religious displays can also educate people about other cultures and beliefs. Some displays are just beautiful works of art no matter what your faith, and some are just damn tacky and in bad taste. Want to see a good fight? Take away religion displays dealing with christmas and you will have a crisis of every retailer in the US, and a backlash from both Christians and those that celebrate it just because it's fun. Dec 25 isn't Jesus' real birthday anyway. I have no issue with a 10 commandments being outside a courthouse either. They are a historic display of laws that people lived by in the past, and still do live by. It can be symbolic without being litteral. I wish people would get over it - there are better fights to fight.

3) As for Christians "getting over" killing people - HA!! Some think Iraq has a lot to do with religion, I hear some Christians saying we should blow up the entire middle east, Planned Parenthood bombings, and so on. No, there are no crusades at present, but I wouldn't be so sure it isn't going to happen in the future.

4) South Americans and mexicans breeding like flies? Did you really say that? Take a drive through DC sometimes, or the south, or Utah. People have lots of kids everywhere for lots of reasons - Latino, Black, White. It doesn't matter what country. Know many Mexican mothers in Mexico who expect the same handouts from the Mexican Government that the crack-mom in Richmond, VA expects from hers? The Catholic Church needs to wake up to at least 1800, I agree, but it's not the only problem in the world. Birth control is important, and so is self-responsibility and education.

BUMP

I think this is one of the most important topics for us today. I hope we can discuss it without the bitterness in some of the other threads.

In my first post I covered the non-religious side and would like to cover a little of the religious side.

Both the Muslims and the Christians claim that without religion we have nothing to base our morals on, while I disagree the statement is worthy of debate.

Could we as a society maintain our values without having them issued to us from "God". Can we as a people weigh good and evil without divine guidiance?

If "God" does not decide what is right or wrong who does?

How much power should any religion have in a Government? Should ALL religions be included or only one? Which one? Should we demand that even those that dont believe should have to at least follow the guidelines of those that do? If our Foounding Fathers Meant this to be a Christian Country shouldnt we fashion it more after countries in the Middle east where religion and government work closer?

If we are a Christian Nation should we not see the war in the middle East as a Holy war just like the Muslims veiw it? Should we not stop till we convert all the unbelievers?

I hope to here for everyone on this

RedBalloon..I agree...I don't really understand why the big ordeal about the 10 commandments being displayed. It doesn't mater what religion it comes from...they're good rules to live by, other than #1 (personal reasons here) Even #2 suits me fine...I don't think the name of any god should be used in cursing context. I was just brought up that way I guess. Prayer in school? SO what!? It doesn't hurt anything. I thin some people just don't have anything better to do with their time. I wish we lived in a world where we could all display the pride we have in out person choice of religion...but that sure isn't going to happen any time soon. 8 years ago...I actually had a woman that told my then employer, she didn't want me touching her dog because I was "an Indian". Can ya believe it. Just 8 years ago. It upset me so badly being the creature lover that I am. Really hurt.

Amuk: This isn't necessarily a Christian country, nor do I believe the founding fathers would like that very much knowing the state of the world today.

This country has peopke from many different religions - many types of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Pagan, Hindu etc etc. Your town might be more Christian, but not all towns or cities are like that. Even if there is one majority of religion, why would it need to be combined with government? They should be about two different parts of life. Laws should be founded on principles that apply to all or interfere with personal beliefs the least.

As for "If "God" doesn't decide whats right or wrong who does?" Communities, a government can do that, but if you base a society on God, and you have a huge number of people that don't believe in that "God" then you don't have much control.

Originally posted by RedBalloon

4) South Americans and mexicans breeding like flies? Did you really say that? Take a drive through DC sometimes, or the south, or Utah. People have lots of kids everywhere for lots of reasons - Latino, Black, White.

Yes I did

Poor choice of words on my part.

I did not mean JUST mexico and South America but the Problem IS MAINLY in third world countries, North America if I remember is pretty much holding steady and Europe is DECLINING.

I agree with you I think people have gone overboard in banning religious displays. I dont see a problem with Jesus on Christmas or even the ten Comandments on public property. Whither or not someone is Christian has nothing to do with displaying what for almost a third of the world was the begining of rule of law.

I have no problem with ANY religious display on its holidays, we have grown to touchy on the subject.

I can understand the no school lead prayers because a lot of religions strictly forbid anything to do with another God. A muslim or wiccan should not have to pray to a Christian God any more that a Christian child should have pray to Allah.

It seems a little common sense would go a long way here

Originally posted by RedBalloon
Amuk: This isn't necessarily a Christian country, nor do I believe the founding fathers would like that very much knowing the state of the world today.

I did not say it was but a lot of people here would disagree with you on that one.

That is why I started this thread to get a discussion started

Both the Muslims and the Christians claim that without religion we have nothing to base our morals on, while I disagree the statement is worthy of debate.

No, I don't believe this either. Or at least that was I immediately was goring to say. But them as I started to type...I realized that the main tenet of my faith is "An It Harm None, Do As Thou Will" The Wiccan Rede....which I strongly believe in. I guess also, it comes from upbringing, being told what is right and what is wrong, something you learn at a very early age. perhaps same it has to do with what a person can "stomach" I sometimes wonder if, if people today had to fight they way they did 500 years ago with our modern thought process, would we happen ....it's not as hard to fight when your no where near your enemy...but being right there face to face is different....

Originally posted by LadyV
Prayer in school? SO what!? It doesn't hurt anything. I thin some people just don't have anything better to do with their time. I wish we lived in a world where we could all display the pride we have in out person choice of religion...but that sure isn't going to happen any time soon.

I agree, but there are a lot of people who say kids will be made fun of or ostracised because of their religion. Gee. I wonder where they learned that. Kids can be very accepting of different schools of thought - more so than their parents. They can also be exceptionally cruel. Prayer in school should be about quiet personal time, perhaps. Pray how you want to. Even Christian kids at my high school would have sooner passed notes and doodled than pray anyway. These days it seems like it would be the uber-religious kids that got the most harrassment. It would be nice if more schools embraced religious holidays from differeng religions. I said it above but I'll mention it again: religions are about people, and history. Nothing wrong with talking about legends and beliefs as long as they are taught in a way that does not declare the absolute certainty of any one particular belief as the only true way.

Originally posted by LadyV
8 years ago...I actually had a woman that told my then employer, she didn't want me touching her dog because I was "an Indian". Can ya believe it. Just 8 years ago. It upset me so badly being the creature lover that I am. Really hurt.

Yikes. Don't tell her that people not like her are responsible for the food she eats, clothes she buys, TV she watches. Can you imagine how paranoid her life must be like? Too bad if she has kids as they will likely be a warped as she is. I can see why that would hurt... a personal attack of sorts like that with no basis is frustrating and insulting.

I think all religion should be scrapped.
There should never be any religious person in a seat of power.
If we must keep religion we should stick all these so called leaders of different religions in a room and not let them out till they come up with some new stories that everybody can be happy with, then they can all write the third testament.
I don't understand how someone can claim that thier god is better then anyone else's, if you belive in one you gotta belive in them all.
BTW xmas is the winter solstice.

Can the non-religious and the religious ever live in the same world?

Of course, in fact, history dictates this very well; history also dictates where 2 different ideologies have clashed and resulted in violent outbreaks. Religion is a personal relationship with an objective divinity or a subjective divinity, either way, both are too be warranted a private worship and not intrude on others.

But, as is quite evident in the last 100 hundred years, it's not only religious differences that have spurred mass violence, but, political ideologies; Communism vs Democracy; Monarchism vs Democracy; Anarchism vs Monarchism; Etc vs Etc.

My mind is so fried right now, i'll finish this off later.

Deep

I consider my self non religous believer, and I live pretty well in the south, I realy care not for any religous propaganda that is geared toward my personal choises unless they attack me directly.

Unfortunately I have to say no. If the polarization of our country, brought about mainly by the politcal system we have, continues at the present rate we are in trouble. The problem is that too many people are to worried about their own rights and not those of their neighbors.

My personal feeling is that religion should be done away with, but I will not force it on someone else. I for one have no problem with prayer in school, 10 Commandments or anything else. What I do have a problem with is people trying to force their ideas and beliefs on me.

I remember one time while I was in the hospital, someone came into my room and started talking about God. This only started to irritate me when they insinuated that since I was an athiest I was going to hell and that was when I told him to kiss my posterior.

Until religion is gone, and people start to think more for humanty than themselves we will constantly deride those who believe differently and that will eventually lead to agression.

Yes, we can.

One of my best friends of a bit more than two years is an uber-christian; I'm an adamant atheist. Yeah, we fight a bit, but we never come to blows. Though one time in class we screamed at each other like crazy... but seconds later, we apologized and shook hands.

So, yes, we can live together in this world.

Thats a good question.

the answer is.....well, sort of, maybe.

the problem is dogmatic paranoid religous fruitcakes who demand their path is the one way, and they have every right to torment anyone who says different. there is the problem.

the reason the ten commandments are a problem is because of some of them.

Thou shall not have any gods before me. instant condemnation to persons who follow other religons.

remeber the sabbath and keep it holy. sabbath only applies to Jewish people, and maybe Christians and Muslims, wjho have their own holy days.

"thou shall not worship graven images". Thats another.

if the ten commandments were restricted to basic interhuman morality, like, thou shall not kill people, thou shall not lie, steal, shag your neighbors wife, ect....then there wouldnt be a problem.

But it contains three commandments which tell other religons basically, piss off, heathens.

I know they can if they wish to.

My wife is Christian and I am....well....yall know

All it takes is to respect each others views.

Its OK for the Non Religious to look upon the Religious as little more than people that believe in the Easter Bunny

AND

Its OK for the Religious to look upon The Non Religious and Hell Bound Heathens

As long as we respect each others rights.

The Non Religious need to stop making fun of the Religious for there Beliefs and understand that a Picture of Jesus will not kill you, nor will a Navitivy secene on the Court House Lawn.

AND

The Religious need to stop trying to "save" the Non Religious. They need to understand that just because THEIR God says something does not mean we ALL have to believe it.

This would be a Giant step forward

Originally posted by Amuk
Could we as a society maintain our values without having them issued to us from "God". Can we as a people weigh good and evil without divine guidance?

Hey Amuk. Good post

I think the answers you seek are to be found in the principles of Secular Humanism.

Secular Humanism is a way of thinking and living that aims to bring out the best in people so that all people can have the best in life. Secular humanists reject supernatural and authoritarian beliefs. [but they don't have to IMHO] They affirm that we must take responsibility for our own lives and the communities and world in which we live. Secular humanism emphasizes reason and scientific inquiry, individual freedom and responsibility, human values and compassion, and the need for tolerance and cooperation. (see A Secular Humanist Declaration)

Emphasis mine.

While I don't agree with their rejection of anything "supernatural" the basic premises are attractive as a solution for society as a whole.

I am of the opinion that organized religion is a tool of control over behaviour in society and that we need something a little more "objective".

If there are any posters who are knowledgeable about secular humanism I would be very interested in hearing from them. I stumbled upon that site a short while ago and have not had the time to delve into the subject too deeply.

I think the better question is, can the religious and the religious live in the same world They are usually the ones starting the trouble, not the non-religious.

Umm, lemme see.

In theory, yes, if everyone would simply realize that they should leave others alone and not try to enforce their beliefs on someone else.

So in reality, hell no, the religious and 'non-religious' can never live in the same world

That's the main problem with these man-made religions; believe in what you want, but when you also believe that you are put on this Earth to tell others what to do, and how they should live their lives -- THAT'S the problem. And inevitably some in every religion will take this to the extreme, which is why you see religious-motivated killings almost daily now.

The simple answer is NO.

Religion has united millions of people in times of need and severed a very relivant purpose in many people's lives. Unfortunately it is also civilization's fatal weakness and I believe we will all die because of it.

Makes you wonder why religion exists in the first place?

But heck, if I were going to try and control a poplulation it seems like a very clever and easy way to do it. We are no more than somebody's science expirement - humans have been programmed to self destruct after after reaching a certain point. I fear we are nearing or have passed it... Few other animals on this planet seem to have evolved such a strong desire for the destruction of entire species. And we all, unknowingly do things every day that support this idea...

[edit on 26-10-2004 by tacitblue]

People without shouldn't really have a problem with those that do... sadly the problem are usually the other way round in order to ensure the "faith" of the sheep.
Look if you were made to believe whatever and do whatever (like ramadan for an example) but you see people running round doing whatever they like, that will undermine your resolve so your religious retainers will tell you they are wrong and possibly evil.. and there is your "problem with atheists".

I am also fully behind the public banning of religion.. the reason why religions choose special clothes or headgear is to differenciate themselves from "normals" and to increase the feeling of belonging (just like any other uniform). By asking believers to remove such items when entering a public building (library, museum etc.) is just like taking off your shoes... it is asking them to return to the "normals" for the duration of their stay in public "no mans land".

Religion is like dirty sex.... do it in the privacy of your own home!

Edit:spelling ][

[edit on 26/10/2004 by Corinthas]