The one absolute truth.

reply to post by smithjustinb

Not as redundant as your contribution to the topic in this reply.

Oh you must mean the redundant way I chose to show how redundant it was to use the term one universe. Of course it was redundant.: Now it's over emphasized even.

Now just stop right there ! I don't want this going any farther.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by interupt42

 

If their is no ending or beginning then does it exist ? A circle at one time did have a starting point and an end point either-wise it would not have ever been a circle?

Not if it expands from a minute point. Kinda like the Big Bang - something can conceivably come from nothing if that nothing is something that's just far too subtle for our methods.

A circle you can also see and touch, but can you see and touch a divine principle? So if the divine principle never had a beginning or an ending and you can't see, touch, or communicate with it does it exist?

Can you or touch the Pythagorean theorem? No, but you have a physical representation that demonstrates such a principle. Who says to have no beginning and no end is not an existence? If the end is the beginning and the beginning is the end, then it's a perpetual state of motion that lasts forever. If you must, add the pairs together - they cancel out! Quite literally, you are left with only the "middle". A constant state of "middle".

To be technical, "never ending and never beginning" is just a fancy term for "immortality", the exact opposite of nonexistence.

edit on 6-12-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Interesting , I will give you this. At present time Physics says that energy can't be created nor destroyed which could be translated into meaning that we have a finite amount of energy in existence. In addition if can't be created nor destroyed then it would also lead too indicate as you say , no beginning and no ending.

However, our understanding of the laws of Physics has been proven wrong in the past and enhanced as we continue to expand our knowledge . In addition the big bang is just a theory (well accepted, but still a theory) but it also accepts that prior to the big bang the universe already existed , so it had a start did it not? Hence it exists?

Perhaps its more accurate to say that in order to exist something must have at minimum a beginning. Which could allow for immortality to exist.

If it had no beginning how could you have A constant state of "middle"? Even the Big Bang had a beginning and I'm sure as our technology and knowledge continues to expand we will also continue to look further back into infinite beginnings. However, just because we can't pin point the final beginning doesn't mean there wasn't one.


I consider these What came first the chicken or the egg , or what is our existence discussions always fun to ponder.

reply to post by randyvs


reply to post by smithjustinb



I find it redundant that you're both taking such a speculative topic seriously. All we're doing is tossing ideas back and forth here, there's no reason to get upset over someone else's creativity. If you do, then you're just jealous.

The one absolute truth - everything changes. EVERYTHING. That's my idea. If you want, you can take it from there.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by interupt42
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

So its not an absolute truth (fact) that , If you where born you will die?

An absolute truth, sometimes called a universal truth, is an unalterable and permanent fact.
www.wisegeek.com...

Yet, you consider existence an absolute? Where were you before you existed and do you exist for infinity or do you consider you existence to eventually end? Maybe you can clear it up for me on why existence is the only absolute?

edit on 6-12-2012 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)

Existence is the only experiential thing that precedes subjective definitions. It is definitions and only definitions that are capable of a falsehood. Therefore, if you don't define, you cannot lie and your reality cannot be false. And when you are not defining, what are you? Nothing in particular, but you definitely exist. When you start to attach a label to that and say, "I am_______", that blank spot will be the subjective part of your sentence. The "I am" part is absolute.

edit on 6-12-2012 by smithjustinb because: (no reason given)

So your trying to make the point that I think therefore I am?

reply to post by interupt42

Interesting , I will give you this. At present time Physics says that energy can't be created nor destroyed which could be translated into meaning that we have a finite amount of energy in existence. In addition if can't be created nor destroyed then it would also lead too indicate as you say , no beginning and no ending.

Ah! You begin to touch on the traces of intelligence. The traces that tell me there's a little more than dumb animal instincts buried in the coding of the divine principle. Even as something is dying, something else is filling a place that is needed, always keeping the universe in balance by always replacing that which is ended. And if something begins, something else dissolves in preparation for the next stage of its existence.

What else, what other inanimate force, can organize such a complicated system over such a vast space? It is not simple, nor easy, to run a game like that. If chaos plays as heavy a role as traditional atheists seem to believe, then that system should have collapsed billions of years ago. In fact, it should have collapsed halfway through the Roman empire or something.

And yet we continue to grow, despite the chaos. Doesn't that imply some sort of support, some sort of aid?

I consider these What came first the chicken or the egg , or what is our existence discussions always fun to ponder.

If one decides a question has no good answer, he has not thought about it long enough. Maybe, one day, we will know which came first. Or perhaps, we'll learn that the answer isn't what it seems. Maybe, the answer is acceptance. Acceptance that we may never know, and that if we're going to, we eventually will.

Maybe we can argue about that too.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by interupt42

 

Interesting , I will give you this. At present time Physics says that energy can't be created nor destroyed which could be translated into meaning that we have a finite amount of energy in existence. In addition if can't be created nor destroyed then it would also lead too indicate as you say , no beginning and no ending.

Maybe we can argue about that too.

No need, a couple of post above someone said that absolute truth is that everything changes. So I just have to wait long enough and you will come around to my views.

But I guess that would mean that I would eventually also come around to your views so in essence we will always argue, but nothing is forever so then we will agree.

In actuality I do agree with you in the following:

Acceptance that we may never know, and that if we're going to, we eventually will.

reply to post by littled16

For all we know we could all just be paranoid constructs being hallucinated by some schizophrenic god on a bender.

Sorry for not taking the meds they gave me guys

Reality would make more sense if what I see is really only a construct of my subconscious playing with my consciousness in a game of "life".

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by randyvs

 

reply to post by smithjustinb

 

I find it redundant that you're both taking such a speculative topic seriously. All we're doing is tossing ideas back and forth here, there's no reason to get upset over someone else's creativity. If you do, then you're just jealous.

The one absolute truth - everything changes. EVERYTHING. That's my idea. If you want, you can take it from there.

Hey that's pretty fancy you chewed us both out at the same time. How'd you pull that off ?
Oh Got it never mind.

Besides all that I feel you owe me an apology . Get'in all crazy in the middle of a perfectly good conversation between us isn't cool AI. It's down right rude. And I can't see why I would ever carry on with you again if that's how you're going to be. I'm not gonna be pushed around by you man. I thought you'd figure that out by now ?

reply to post by randyvs


randyvs you changed avis!

reply to post by littled16


In honor of someone on another thread yes, but no sweets not for long.
Ai did say everything changes I guess he was right.
Btw love yours. Very cute.

reply to post by smithjustinb
Shhh... Is probably right.

Are YOU one individual, or trillions of individual cells with their own conscious? Ad Infinitum....

reply to post by randyvs

Thanks!
Rock on randy!

reply to post by randyvs


If I wanted to be all nit picky about how I use my words like you're being, I would tell you that it is incorrect to say, "farther". The correct word would be, "further". But I'm not a douche bag so ill, "just watch". That way I can stick to the topic at hand.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
reply to post by randyvs

 

If I wanted to be all nit picky about how I use my words like you're being, I would tell you that it is incorrect to say, "farther". The correct word would be, "further". But I'm not a douche bag so ill, "just watch". That way I can stick to the topic at hand.

Words hide the truth.

If i were to nit pick - i would say you had to comment and couldn't just watch without nit picking.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by randyvs

 

reply to post by smithjustinb

 

I find it redundant that you're both taking such a speculative topic seriously. All we're doing is tossing ideas back and forth here, there's no reason to get upset over someone else's creativity. If you do, then you're just jealous.

The one absolute truth - everything changes. EVERYTHING. That's my idea. If you want, you can take it from there.

Does a hydrogen atom flung out into the FURTHEST reach of the universe beyond any possibility of being affected by external gravitational forces change? You might could say, "it changes because the electrons are always moving.", but then I would say, "no it stays the same because I was including the movement as its regular pattern of behavior as the constant within its definition." At that point, we will have to come up with a definition of what exactly change is. And at that point, we would each be arguing about our own subjective interpretation of change. So what constitutes change?

Is it movement? Transformation?

Keep in mind, the term, "subjective" only applies to experiencers. The absolute would be that which can be verified as true from all viewpoints. So are you sure that all experiencers experience something called, "change"? I am not sure, but I do know that all experiencers experience existing.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by smithjustinb
reply to post by randyvs

 

If I wanted to be all nit picky about how I use my words like you're being, I would tell you that it is incorrect to say, "farther". The correct word would be, "further". But I'm not a douche bag so ill, "just watch". That way I can stick to the topic at hand.

Words hide the truth.

If i were to nit pick - i would say you had to comment and couldn't just watch without nit picking.

edit on 6-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

I would say you are right. Everyone has their opinions. To me, randyvs got on my thread acting like a douche bag.
You might have seen it differently.

You might say, and I would agree, that randyvs is, in an absolute sense, just this, but you know as well as I do that somewhere inside you, you have made a judgement.

reply to post by smithjustinb

Tut tut- no name calling please. We are adults here and can word our replies without stooping to such things. This is an interesting thread and I would hate to see it turn into a schoolyard game of "sticks and stones".

reply to post by smithjustinb


Well at least I never thought to start sling'in muddied up words like douche-bag around and never thought of you as one in the first place. Sheesh a lil criticism goes along way on your feelings huh ? Sorry about that chief.
BTW in case you didn't know once you post a thread to ATS it's no longer your thread. It becomes the property of ATS and it's members all. So don't be so possessive.

Or any farther.

Littled

Tut-Tut lmao

Enjoying the subject matter in this thread immensely. Thank you to everyone who has contributed thus far, and thank you OP for calling attention to the subject.

Star + Flag!

Originally posted by interupt42

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by interupt42
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

So its not an absolute truth (fact) that , If you where born you will die?

An absolute truth, sometimes called a universal truth, is an unalterable and permanent fact.
www.wisegeek.com...

Yet, you consider existence an absolute? Where were you before you existed and do you exist for infinity or do you consider you existence to eventually end? Maybe you can clear it up for me on why existence is the only absolute?

edit on 6-12-2012 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)

Existence is the only experiential thing that precedes subjective definitions. It is definitions and only definitions that are capable of a falsehood. Therefore, if you don't define, you cannot lie and your reality cannot be false. And when you are not defining, what are you? Nothing in particular, but you definitely exist. When you start to attach a label to that and say, "I am_______", that blank spot will be the subjective part of your sentence. The "I am" part is absolute.

edit on 6-12-2012 by smithjustinb because: (no reason given)

So your trying to make the point that I think therefore I am?

I think, therefore I am, but I am not what I think I am. I am not what you think I am. I am not what the scared kitty cat that I want to pet but can't thinks I am. I just am because I am. However, my definitions of what I and you are will make me see with that lens. And definitions, I believe, are inescapable, so perhaps they should be utilized, but nevertheless, my version of the truth will remain subjective, and therefore false. We are all living a lie, but aren't we supposed to? Life in a body can't live any other way. So what do we do? Sure we can, "just watch", but we will never see anything except what humans were made to see. Or will we?

I once considered a scenario where the human mind would begin to take others perspectives into consideration to such a great extent that we experience the world through the eyes of all. I saw this as compassion, and the next step in human consciousness. We would know what it's like to be a lion or a spider. In fact, I had a dream last night that I was being chased by two lions who later I found out were really humans. Anyway... If this scenario actually played out, we would be ready for contact with beings from other planets who might be extremely different than us. Then, we would be on a virtually endless journey of getting to know what the universe was really capable of in terms of subjective configurations of others. All in all, this would greatly increase our understanding of what exactly life was.

But would we not arrive at the same conclusion? Life is what we say it is and other than that, it just is? Or is that a primitive explanation? Maybe there is an absolute definition but we are far to primitive to get it right or even come close? That would at least explain why we try to define the world in the first place.

When people have near death experiences, they go to a place where there is a light that feels overwhelmingly loving, yet is indescribable. Maybe that's it. In either case, words cannot define the absolute. The absolute can only be experienced.