Veterans' gun rights a sticky issue in defense bill

reply to post by stirling


What are you talking about?

I have not read anything similar to what you are referencing in your post.

Did you read the article?

The issue is the government deeming veterans who are supposedly "mentally incompetent" with respect to their financing and extending that to firearm incompetence to justify barring them from owning a gun.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
No one said anything about the V.A. or Vets system works very well......the whole thing needs rebuilt, IMO.

In the last 50 years the US has conducted two decade-long wars and many shorter conflicts. Veterans are becoming such a large portion of the citizenry the V.A. should be made over into a cabinet level department!

Of course the numbers dont justify any of this "fear the vets" nonsense. That's not the point. Reduction of crime or violence has never been the point.

Look at all the firearms related laws that have ever been passed or proposed. Not one of them was ever intended to tackle crime or violence.

Laws against inexpensive firearms just keep poor people from having them. The AWB and high cap laws go after rifles which make up 2% or less of all firearm related crimes. How many vets are running around harming other people?

It's an easy chip off the private ownership block to take because the public is loaded with morons who support bills based on nothing more than presentation.

As an aside if you're a veteran or have a veteran in your home that's an immediate SWAT activation according to the activation matrix. Doesnt matter what the call is about. If there's a vet in the house, PTSD or not, SWAT will come knocking.

Kings dont trust their own soldiers. Never have. If you own a gun all politicians hate you. Even if you work for them. Especially if you work for them.

Not one firearm restricting bill is about public safety or crime reduction. Not one.

Well if not being good at managing finances is a flag that a person is a danger to others then I'd say that's all the proof we need to declare that Congress and the president are an imminent danger to the American people. We need to start using their rationale against them.

Talk about adding insult to injury, and how many soilders that return from these unjust wars have financial struggles as a direct result of having thier lives turned upside down, and untold horrors and trama.

Yeah, I'd be worried too if I was the government that used and abused these soilders , because these are people trained to use weapons and took an oath to protect thier Country against all foriegn and DOMESTIC enemies.

reply to post by beezzer


This is getting ridiculous. Since when did money indicated the level of competence of a veteran?

BTW I wish you well with your cold.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000


On the other hand, who wants the next John Rambo in the true original sense of that character, to be a neighbor with an arsenal?

Did you even watch the first movie? The sheriff provoked the hell out of Rambo. The deputy was even worse. All Rambo wanted was a hot meal and to be left alone, but the "authorities" couldn't handle that. And arsenal? are you kidding me? Before the sheriff started messing with him, care to list for me how many guns Rambo had in his possession? Gimme a break!

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
Did you even watch the first movie? The sheriff provoked the hell out of Rambo. The deputy was even worse. All Rambo wanted was a hot meal and to be left alone, but the "authorities" couldn't handle that. And arsenal? are you kidding me? Before the sheriff started messing with him, care to list for me how many guns Rambo had in his possession? Gimme a break!

I always wondered why the sheriff hated Rambo so much. Okay, so what, the guy was carrying (and hunting) with a nightmarish knife. Guess the sheriff didn't meet Chuck Norris yet.

Originally posted by swan001

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
Did you even watch the first movie? The sheriff provoked the hell out of Rambo. The deputy was even worse. All Rambo wanted was a hot meal and to be left alone, but the "authorities" couldn't handle that. And arsenal? are you kidding me? Before the sheriff started messing with him, care to list for me how many guns Rambo had in his possession? Gimme a break!

I always wondered why the sheriff hated Rambo so much. Okay, so what, the guy was carrying (and hunting) with a nightmarish knife. Guess the sheriff didn't meet Chuck Norris yet.

The prick of a sheriff hated Rambo because he didn't fit into a nice little box of acceptability. IMO, the sheriff got exactly what was coming to him.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


Darth i think you missed the point of Wrabbits comparison.

I think i am correct in presumming Wrabbit was alluding to the fact that a individual trained in combat is very dangerous coupled with mental instability. Which I would agree with.

However in this instance I would say the comparison is not valid, as the article is drawing a weak connection between mental incompetence with respect to finances to firearm use.

Wrabbit can correct us, if we both missed the point.

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
IMO, the sheriff got exactly what was coming to him.

Yeah.

But if I were Rambo I wouldn't announce my presence by shooting every lights I see, like a freakin' vampire.

If this goes through, you can damned well be SURE that more" INCOMPETANTS" will be listed with the vets later.....
The argument does NOT hold water, nor is it even logical.....
What about "disturbed ex cops" or even serving ones?
How competant are they?
Its time to shut these fools down before ALL your rights are in the garbage can, and YOU are the target of the next pogrom against liberty.
If you are so stupid as to go along with this you deserve what you are going to get.....
Theres many many civillians who could qualify for the ruling as well, what about them?
We take the gun rights of anyone in therapy?
even for thumb sicking or other harmless abnormalities? nail biting?
Whats next?
How about disarming preppers as a danger to themselves and their neighbours?
You ready for that?
How dumb can you get?
JUDGE NOT< LEST YE BE JUDGED get it?
This is just another control grab......
NOBODY different thats whats being proposed...everyone think the same.....
sheesh!

reply to post by stirling


"Mentally Incapable" of handling money could also mean being in debt.

Golly gee.

How many Americans are currently in debt?

reply to post by DarthMuerte


C'mon Darth, I'm not the enemy here.

Yes I watched the first movie. The only good one of the bunch actually. I prefer the book though and it's more accurate to the tone of what the story intended. In this case, the author intended to portray Rambo as a complex and generally broken man who the system just wouldn't let alone.

In the book and original telling,. the Sheriff and John Rambo die several feet apart from each other, having literally killed each other in a final fit of shooting that just took a bit longer for each to die from. Enough time to consider what brought them there. It was actually a very powerful story as originally told.The movie is far better with the book read first.....and the way the series was exploited ruined the original story and meaning entirely.


Now if you don't know anyone who has been in this war and been ruined by it./..I'm very happy for that. I mean that sincerely. Among my own family, we haven't been as lucky for not being touched. Among those who've served? Only one falls into the category of a man I'd almost pick up a gun to defend myself FROM if I heard he so much as owned one again.

This damn war has done horrible things to some of the people who the US sent to do it's wet work. The politicians should be ashamed for the lives they've destroyed..and I'm only talking the Americans of course. Still.....to the topic of the thread.....We can't play like these broken people don't exist. They absolutely DO....just not in numbers so great as to justify some of the loony talk about Vets I've heard, we'd agree on that entirely.

reply to post by beezzer


This is ridiculous. I'm ashamed to say I'm from NY and unfortunately that idiot Shummer is one of my senators. Too bad it will never pass. In spite I think I'll go purchase another handgun and a ton of ammunition. I'm just glad I was born in Upstate NY instead of the City.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I agree with you about the book, and the first movie being the only "good" one. I do take umbrage at this though:

On the other hand, who wants the next John Rambo in the true original sense of that character,

Yes he was broken. Heart broken over the loss of his friends, the treatment he received from his fellow citizens, and his inability to provide for himself despite his prowess and impressive skill set. He needed a friend more than anything. What he got was a d*ck head sheriff giving him a hard time and pushing him over the edge. How many "civilians" did he hurt in his rampage? He went only after those who had come after him. I would be proud to have him as my neighbor and friend.

Is that really about guns in the hands of vets?

Is it?

From the article:

Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., sought to amend the bill to stop the Veterans Affairs Department from putting the names of veterans deemed too mentally incompetent to handle their finances into the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, which prohibits them from buying or owning firearms. Read more: www.foxnews.com...

Part Deux

Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., objected, saying the measure would make it easier for veterans with mental illness to own a gun, endangering themselves and others. Read more: www.foxnews.com...

Mentally incompetent to handle their finances?

Seriously?

In that case the US federal government has been mentally incompetent to handle our financial affairs so lets deny the government "right" to buy a gun.

That really burns my behind mentally incompetent is the majority of this country when it comes to finances.


edit to add:

If a vet is so bad with their money (mentally incompetent ) how the hell would they have the cash to buy guns?

Golly gee.

Could their money problems be a direct result from serving in war, or their benefits being screwed with constantly? The only vet that should be deemed unfit to own a gun are ones that truly have lost their mind and shouldn't be out wandering the streets anyway.

If a vet is so crazy as to inflict bodily harm on someone, they will do so with or without a gun.

Stupidity.

But this is FOX, will wait for other sources.

reply to post by DarthMuerte

I will say I take back what I said on this in a rare instance of doing so for me. I hadn't intended that to come across how it did and it bothers me that it did come so far outside what was intended. I'd read the book differently and while the movie, as it was released, was 100% about the Sheriff and his merry band of marauding deputies, I came away from the book with more of the impression that the war had done what the Cop put the finishing touches on to push him over the edge.

Regardless tho, I have to admit in thinking about it, my reference was assuming folks saw and recalled the first movie, given how radically far outside the original story part 2 -> infinity became.

I'm sure you knew this but for trivia or anyone else who didn't, you saw how the first movie was considered for an ending very different from what happened, right? It was kinda shocking...especially given the time in America that was released, but the Behind-The-Scenes available in the DVD re-release has them saying they almost had The Colonel shoot Rambo at the end, in the police station. The way it would have gone, so they said it, was by him grabbing the gun, pulling into himself and forcing it to be fired in a form of suicide. I must say...the book and original telling had little resemblance to the action hero it came to be later, eh?

All things being equal though, my obscure reference to far distant movie culture wasn't worth causing friction over. My bad on that.

Anyone with a mental illness should not own a firearm, and veterans should not be an exception to this. Whether or not lacking the ability to handle one's own finances constitutes as being mentally ill, I can't really say - That is going to require a case by case evaluation, isn't it?

From my observations, the two tend to go hand in hand often enough, but does it warrant this?
How often to vets with finance problems commit crimes with a firearm? What percentage of them?

The answer to this question could be very telling, but finding specific statistics relating to this hasn't been easy in the short time I have been looking.