The Christian perception of the state of Israel.

Originally posted by SilentKoala
reply to post by HabiruThorstein

 

Wow, seriously, you're going to resort to name-calling and ad-hominems, just because I pointed out some historical facts you don't like? Clearly the one who has hate for others is you.

If you still don't understand the difference between the terms catholic and roman catholic (which you clearly don't) I encourage you to educate yoruself: en.wikipedia.org...

I won't get my hopes up though; I'm sure you aren't going to make an attempt to learn and better yourself, so you just keep slinging mud and throwing around insults as you pound on your computer keyboard because you can't stand the fact that not everyone in the world believes your religion is immune to critical examination.

Whoever said it's my religion? I just see endless threads repeating the same tripe over and over, so I tend to drop in on the new ones, and suggest you all take your Christian-, or Jew-, or Hindu-, or whatever bashing to one of the 100's of established 'I hate people who believe in X' threads. Some non-Christian getting on and proclaiming his total knowledge of how 2 billion people all think the same thing is both idiotic and redundant.

Who's barking up the wrong tree? You. But go ahead and keep ASSuming


PS - just for the record, I have been ASSumed by others so far to be Christian, Jewish, and Muslim in various threads. Just for the record.

Originally posted by buster2010
If you were to wake up to modern times you would know that taking land by force is illegal. And when it comes to crying victim nobody does it better than Israel.

All land warfare involves taking land by force. At this very moment there is warfare all over the world. To my knowledge warfare is not illegal, though I wish it were if it meant no more war. But who has the power to enforce such a law on everyone else? Certainly, no nation or entity currently exists which can enforce 'peace' on the rest of the world. Just turn on the news to see proof. Still, by some modern rule of law, annexation is deemed illegal and Israel is not permitted to acquire and absorb "Palestine" through aggressive military actions with that intent in mind. But, taking military control of a parcel of land during a time of conflict is simply good military strategy.

All this aside, the Arabs have been trying to take Israeli land by force ever since their founding. It just doesn’t look the same b/c the Arabs have been using terrorism and guerilla warfare as a means overthrow Israel. I don't think anyone believes for a moment they wouldn't invade, occupy, annex Israel if they had the military might to do so. He11, they even publically admitted what they want to do with Israel.

The Arabs don't care about your contemporary law. It only appears that way b/c naive people don't want to do their homework. The only "power" the Arabs involved are respecting is the power of Might. Israel has it, they do not.

Israel is being restrained only by international politics. They are getting sick of living in insecurity. I mean, lets face it, history has a history of attempting to exterminate these people. Now they live in an area where they are hated on all borders. They live through continuous terrorists attacks. The people have to know where their nearest bomb shelter is at all times. Why? Could it have to do with indiscriminate rocket attacks? Can you imagine trying to raise a family in such a hostile shell-shocked enviornment?

Originally posted by DarknStormy
reply to post by VonDinkinDunken

 

Your first post I agreed with to the point I couldn't even respond to it because it is probably true. Your second post though is an absolute lie. I encourage you to provide an instance where the Arabs have provoked anyone without being provoked themselves prior to their Revolt/Uprising/Rocket Shelling or what ever else they done..

May 14, 1948, Palestinian Jews declare the State of Israel on land partitioned to them by UK & UN.

May 15, 1948, the State of Israel is invaded by Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


There's a small problem here. Have you read the prophesies of Zechariah of what happens in Israel in the time of the end?

Here's a couple of them.

Zechariah 12
1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Zechariah 13
1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Continued...

reply to post by ntech


Zechariah 14
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

After reading this why would the Muslims even bother with Israel? All things considered they should be running for the borders just to get out of the bull's eye when all hell starts to break loose.

reply to post by ntech

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

After reading this why would the Muslims even bother with Israel? All things considered they should be running for the borders just to get out of the bull's eye when all hell starts to break loose.

The verse simply shows that the Jews are heading towards punishment... 2/3rds of them are going to perish.

I wonder if the punishment of the so called "chosen" people has something to do with Israel being a secular country that does not uphold the laws of God.... and for being a hotbed for gay tourism.... and for its crimes against the Palestinians. It makes perfect sense now doesn't it?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

The verse simply shows that the Jews are heading towards punishment... 2/3rds of them are going to perish.

I wonder if the punishment of the so called "chosen" people has something to do with Israel being a secular country that does not uphold the laws of God.... and for being a hotbed for gay tourism.... and for its crimes against the Palestinians. It makes perfect sense now doesn't it?

The punishment is for having rejected Jesus. If you rejected Jesus, you rejected God.

They will recognize Jesus as their Savior, finally, at the second coming.

At that time, Jesus will save the "remnant", put them in the land and let them multiply again, while living in peace for 1,000 years (the Millennium).

reply to post by ntech

After reading this why would the Muslims even bother with Israel? All things considered they should be running for the borders just to get out of the bull's eye when all hell starts to break loose.

Because Muhammad told the Muslims that they would be the victors in this battle.

In the end, it's going to be he said (Allah and Muhammad) against he said (God).

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's some Muslim cleric or a hadith that tells the Muslims this. Which is it Skorpion?

Originally posted by VonDinkinDunken
May 14, 1948, Palestinian Jews declare the State of Israel on land partitioned to them by UK & UN.

Well, theres a provocation right there. But lets go back to a Month earlier.

The invasion of Deir Yassin took place after the United Nations proposed on November 29, 1947 (UN Resolution 181) that Palestine be divided into an Arab state and a Jewish one. Jerusalem was to belong to neither state, but was to be administered separately; Deir Yassin lay within the boundaries of the proposed plan for Jerusalem. The Arabs rejected the proposal, and civil war broke out. British rule in Palestine ended on May 14, 1948; Israel declared its independence that day, and several Arab armies invaded at midnight on May 15, triggering the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.

Remember, The massacre at Deir Yassin was Jewish/Zionist lead.

The Jewish forces that entered Deir Yassin belonged in the main to two extremist, underground, paramilitary groups, the Irgun (Etzel) (National Military Organization) and the Lehi (Fighters for the Freedom of Israel), also known as the Stern Gang, both aligned with the right-wing revisionist Zionist movement.

If you check out what happened at Deir Yassim, you will understand that Zionists provoked what would follow over the coming months.

On April 9, 1948, one month before Israel declared itself a nation, a force of about 120 members of Irgun Zvai Leumi (IZL) and the Lehi, or Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin and massacred up to 130 Palestinians, most of them women, children and older people.

The village was not undefended. Villagers killed five attackers and wounded 30 others. As Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote, “Deir Yassin is not remembered as a military operation, but rather for the atrocities committed by the IZL and LHI troops during and immediately after the drawn-out battle: Whole families were riddled with bullets and grenade fragments and buried when houses were blown up on top of them; men, women and children were mowed down as they emerged from houses; individuals were taken aside and shot. At the end of the battle, groups of old men, women and children were trucked through West Jerusalem’s streets in a kind of ‘victory parade’ and then dumped in (Arab) East Jerusalem.”

May 15, 1948, the State of Israel is invaded by Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon.

Well, this part pretty much works in with the above. Could you blame those surrounding nations for attacking after what the Zionist terrorists folked out to innocent civilians? I couldn't and that was only one example of what happened over there.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

The creation of Jewish-Occupied Palestine was a deliberate, cunning move by Zionists, most of whom had no descent from the "People of the Book." They seduced Christianity through people like Scofield to do it, twisting prophecy and theology. I do not appreciate this, nor do I appreciate the financial drain on my country,all the death and destruction since 1948, and the conversion of a large part of humanity into "terrorists," nor do I appreciate the unending hate, hate, hate.

Zionists didn't regather them. God himself said he would regather them from where he scattered them. No man can undo what he has done and when he opens a door no man can shut it, and when he closes a door no man can open it.

Zechariah 7:14 “and I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations which they had not known. Thus the land they left was desolate, so that no one went to and fro, and the pleasant land was made desolate.”

Zechariah 8:11-14

11 But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as in the former days,’ says the Lord of hosts.

12 ‘For the seed shall be prosperous,
The vine shall give its fruit,
The ground shall give her increase,
And the heavens shall give their dew—
I will cause the remnant of this people
To possess all these.
13 And it shall come to pass
That just as you were a curse among the nations,
O house of Judah and house of Israel,
So I will save you, and you shall be a blessing.
Do not fear,
Let your hands be strong.’

Ezekiel 11:17-21

17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.”’ 18 And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. 19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord God.

Ezekiel 20:33-44

33 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,” says the Lord God.

37 “I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

39 “As for you, O house of Israel,” thus says the Lord God: “Go, serve every one of you his idols—and hereafter—if you will not obey Me; but profane My holy name no more with your gifts and your idols. 40 For on My holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel,” says the Lord God, “there all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, shall serve Me; there I will accept them, and there I will require your offerings and the firstfruits of your sacrifices, together with all your holy things. 41 I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. 42 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers. 43 And there you shall remember your ways and all your doings with which you were defiled; and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight because of all the evils that you have committed. 44 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have dealt with you for My name’s sake, not according to your wicked ways nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel,” says the Lord God.’”



So you see, he has regathered Israel. Judah and Benjamin are in modern Israel now, and Ephraim (Northern kingdom) is being restored through Christ from the gentiles from where they were assimilated. When God split his second staff Bonds, this was the split between christianity and the jews with the advent of the crucifiction of Christ.

Zechariah 11:13-14

13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter. 14 Then I cut in two my other staff, Bonds, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

Judas Iscariot tried to return the 30 pieces of silver, but the Sanhedrin refused to take the blood money and return it to temple coffers because it was blood money and unlawful to do so, so verse 13 was fulfilled of Zechariah 11 when they took Judas' 30 silver pieces and purchased a potter's field to bury the poor in. The next thing, was when christianity and judaism split which is what verse 14 in Zechariah 11 signifies.

So God has put them in their own land, and he will save them from the evil things they do now at Gog and Magog war to prove to them he is still in control. Right now they are fulfilling the "firepot in a woodpile" prophecy, being the heavy stone that any nations try to heave away will be cut by.

reply to post by DarknStormy


What about the Hebron massacres in 1929? 67 Jews killed by Arab mobs

And the 1929 Palestine riots? Where a dispute over the Western Wall led to Arabs attacking and killing 133 Jews and injuring over 339 others.

Or 1929 Safed pogrom where Anti-Jewish riots led to the deaths of 20 Jews simply b/c the Arabs thought the Jews were planning to take over a mosque?

Didn't take long for this thread to turn into a bible-verse-spam-a-thon.
Doesn't appear we're going to get an intellectual discussion after all.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Zionists didn't regather them. God himself said he would regather them from where he scattered them.

Did God regather Israel to be the irreligious, secular, homosexual celebrating, anti-christian state it is today?
Is this what the prophecy says Israel would be restored as?

You quote Ezekiel 11 and only underlined (conveniently) verse 17. What about the rest?

17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.”’ 18 And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. 19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them,


Well? Then why is Israel still doing detestable and abominable things such as mocking Jesus and hold gay pride parades? Where is the new spirit?

reply to post by Deetermined

Because Muhammad told the Muslims that they would be the victors in this battle.
In the end, it's going to be he said (Allah and Muhammad) against he said (God).
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's some Muslim cleric or a hadith that tells the Muslims this. Which is it Skorpion?

I am not even bringing Islam into this. You are.

Its about the simple biblical fact that God punishes evil.

FACT : Israel is an irreligious, Jesus hating state that is also a hotbed for gay tourism. Look it up on google for yourself. These sins, according to the bible warrants a severe punishment. Of course, you believe Israel, despite its sins, will get some special treatment.

And don't bother copy pasting a huge chunk of scripture justifying why you believe Israel will get special treatment. Wake up, the modern state of Israel is NOT holy. It is going to face severe punishment.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


That made you sound like such a hypocrite, Skorpion.

The title of your thread is "The Christian perception of the state of Israel" and yet you don't want to recognize that all of the turmoil that we're currently seeing in Israel is primarily due to religion. Judaism vs. Islam. Or in the case of Syria, Islam vs. Islam.

You open your post with a Bible verse and then tell others not to copy and paste Bible verses!

Sheeeeeeesh!

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Well? Then why is Israel still doing detestable and abominable things such as mocking Jesus and hold gay pride parades? Where is the new spirit?

You've already been told, but you choose to ignore it.

Lonewolf already provided a large section of Ezekiel 11, now go back and read ALL of it along with Ezekiel 37. The answers are there.

I'll spare you the posting of these verses myself.

reply to post by Deetermined

all of the turmoil that we're currently seeing in Israel is primarily due to religion. Judaism vs. Islam.

Its not a religious conflict in Israel, its a conflict over land.
The Israeli state is NOT a theocracy.... with all its atheism and open homosexual. The only ones who see it as a religious conflict are the christian fundamentalists cheering on the Jews who reject Jesus as the messiah.

Its exactly this kind of thinking that will lead many Christians along with Jews to follow the anti-christ when he arrives. Why? Because many of you have this bizarre obsession with anti-christian Israel.... you are utterly convinced that this vile nation is holy.

Or in the case of Syria, Islam vs. Islam.

Its a civil uprising vs the current government.
Just because the combatants are muslim doesn't mean its "Islam vs Islam". Its like saying WW1 and WW2 was "Christianity vs Christianity".

You open your post with a Bible verse and then tell others not to copy and paste Bible verses!

I quoted the verse thats most often used by Christians to prove that the establishment of the modern Israeli state was "prophetic". What I don't do is post a wall of scripture and attach say "see, heres the evidence".

This is what some people are doing here... not just in this thread, but in this entire forum. And its getting really annoying, to be frank.

reply to post by Deetermined

You've already been told, but you choose to ignore it.
Lonewolf already provided a large section of Ezekiel 11, now go back and read ALL of it along with Ezekiel 37. The answers are there.

I've only been given someones interpretation of it. Its not the answer, but more of the same special pleading for Israel.

He highlighted the parts that show Israel being "gathered".... very well.
But I pointed to the next few verses and asked him a particular question?

18 And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. 19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them,

If Israel has been "regathered", then just why is Israel still doing detestable and abominable things such as mocking Jesus and hold gay pride parades? Where is the new spirit?

Christians believe God restored Israel to be a godless, secular, homosexual tolerating, anti-Christian state. Thats not the work of God, its the work of godless people.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Actually, Skorpion, what's tiring is you playing ignorant as to why there's fighting going on over the land to begin with. We both know that the land IS a religious matter being disguised as a civil matter.

As for Syria, it started out as a civil uprising that turned into an Islamic fight to make Syria an Islamic state by the Islamic extremists. They have infiltrated and taken over the FSA movement and I think you know it, but refuse to admit it due to your religion. You have your own disguise going.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

If Israel has been "regathered", then just why is Israel still doing detestable and abominable things such as mocking Jesus and hold gay pride parades? Where is the new spirit?

The regathering of Israel is not completed yet. When it's complete, you'll see another fight over Jerusalem and who's capitol it's going to become. While this is going on, or shortly after it's been completed, you'll see the new spirit start to take over.