What is the problem with Freemasonry?

Originally posted by Cearbhall
Dunn,
Spoken like a heretical sect member well done (no pun intended). I get this a lot from Masons, and I can see why Masonry is against the true Faith. I know the truth hurts, no need to try to smoke screen me or others. I see past it.

Actually, there is truth in that post... like the origins, like our organization, part of the history... but the rest... pure propagandist poppycock. I have already demolished this tripe once before on this forum, and I will not waste bandwidth doing it again. Do a search if you are interested in the truth.

As for being the true faith... HA, I laugh at your presumption and arrogance. Masonry, truth to be told, is NOT opposed to the RCC... in fact, it is not against any religion... and no, the truth does not hurt... I admit that 80% was true... unfortunately, all the accusations are base lies and frauds.

As for your ability to see or not see... well, the fact you buy into the nonsense shows you clearly do NOT see.

But, really, its ok... keep you blinders on and lifts nailed on your feet... as a Mason, I do not care how you approach the Throne of Grace.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
Gerard, you obviously are angered and frustrated by the perceptions and prejudices that the general populace exhibit towards your institution, so maybe you can clear some things up for us and dispel some of the mystery here on ATS. (And I am not being sarcastic here) Why not take a video camera into a lodge and film a few rituals, interview your brethren about their beliefs and the order, and then post it on the web for us to see?

Other than the fact it would require him to violate his honor and his given word, to provide entertainment to folks that have no right to see it? Other than that satisfying a base curiosity is NOT what masonry is about? Other than the fact you have no right to even ask? Other than those reasons, i can't think of a single one...

I for one would be VERY interested to see that. I reckon it would make it to be broadcast on Discovery if it was done well enough.

I am sure you would. Petition a lodge and go through the degrees with an open heart and mind... you MIGHT understand. Just because you are interested in knowing something does not mean that it should be opened to you.

I'm also curious as to what degree you have attained within the order. There are always rumours and myths to perpetuate rumours and myths, so if you are not on the supreme council, then any attempt you make to clear up the misunderstanding will be brushed aside by doubters who will claim that you are not one of the select few that are chosen to enter the upper echelons and thus have the secrets revealed to you.

that is always the claim, no matter who answers. there are no upper echelons, and the fact that folks won't/can't accept that will not change the fact that there is no such thing. You see, we ALL say there is no such thing, and historically, there has never been ANY evidence that there is... yet folks of the paranoid mindset will insist that there is, and that all the denial simply prove it... well, the fact is, the denials prove there is no such thing.

I hope this makes you understand people's reactions a little better. With understanding comes forgiveness.

Oh, knowing him, I would say that he was asking it rhetocially. Folks that do not trust what they do not understand are bigots and hatemongers. Even Jesus taught not to lie, not to cheat, not to bear false witness... yet, that is what masons are subjected to.

You are not entitled to see the degrees, since you are not a mason. If you are that curious, join. And given the mindset you have displayed, I doubt you would understand even taking part... and THAT is the real reason why people dislike/hate masonry, because they are afraid that they are not good enough to become a mason, or to understand what is being taught.

You are first made a mason in your heart. If you do not HAVE a heart, you cannot, therefore, be made a mason.

There is nothing about Freemasonry's rituals that can not be found on the WWW. When you become a Freemason you will understand this rituals because you will have been taken through them as the candidate. There will always be people who will hate Freemasons and Freemasonry. Some of these people will do so because they are ignorant and do not know any better. In the Bible we read about the man called Saul better known as Paul and we read about his conversion to a religion that he hated with a passion,(the Christian Religion). I wonder if some of the people on this board who hate Freemasonry and the Freemasons were hit by lightning; would that help them come to their senses and see Freemasonry in a different way.

Gerard

[edit on 23-10-2004 by Gerard]

Listen I am not going to bash the masons since (as I stated in threads in the past) our council does charity work with shiners and to me helping children is more important than anything else. Yes it is true that the Catholic Church does not want Catholics to join freemasonry. Yes it is true that some Catholics have joined freemasonry, and even some are in the Knights. Now some men I know who are in both organizations join for the wrong reasons anyways, like trying to sell insurance or thinking they will get promoted at work, etc. Now has for the Catholic Church asking Catholics not to join masonry and there is a reason for this. Most of this developed during the 1800�s during the anti-catholic movements especially in New England. Remember that back then there where many fights between protestants and Catholics. Many Catholics could not find work because they where catholic. Many Catholics joined masonry and converted to protestant churches to get employment. So of course this would upset people. What if Catholics started converting masons to join the Knights? Over a period of times masons would not allow Catholics, and I am not trying to starting an uproar with this but just so many of you understand where some of this comes from.

I think pbrez makes some very good points. It pretty much boils down to the fact that people simply have different opinions. I have a couple of close friends who are in KofC, but I've never tried to convert them to my "heretical sect" (as one poster above put it). Likewise, they don't try to convert me to theirs.

Regardless of what some of the more close-minded or fanatical may believe, there's absolutely nothing wrong with people of differing opinions extending the hand of friendship to each other. Besides, what a person actually does is far more important than what he or she thinks. Everyone has their own beliefs and opinions, but actions are the true test of character.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by pbrez
Listen I am not going to bash the masons since (as I stated in threads in the past) our council does charity work with shiners and to me helping children is more important than anything else. Yes it is true that the Catholic Church does not want Catholics to join freemasonry. Yes it is true that some Catholics have joined freemasonry, and even some are in the Knights. Now some men I know who are in both organizations join for the wrong reasons anyways, like trying to sell insurance or thinking they will get promoted at work, etc. Now has for the Catholic Church asking Catholics not to join masonry and there is a reason for this. Most of this developed during the 1800�s during the anti-catholic movements especially in New England. Remember that back then there where many fights between protestants and Catholics. Many Catholics could not find work because they where catholic. Many Catholics joined masonry and converted to protestant churches to get employment. So of course this would upset people. What if Catholics started converting masons to join the Knights? Over a period of times masons would not allow Catholics, and I am not trying to starting an uproar with this but just so many of you understand where some of this comes from.

Doing charity work with shiners? What are you doing, getting into bar fights? I always prefer to do my charity work with Shriners, but that's just me.

Your perception seems to be a little skewed, and your history incomplete. The oppressive dictates of the Holy See extends further into the past than you have indicated. In Eminenti predates your "history" of Freemasonry and Catholic rivalry (a rivalry that has only one side, playing "ball" with itself). Your assertion of conversion speaks little of faith and belief, religious persecution has heaped far greater burdens upon others who have remained steadfast, why would the Catholics cave so easily?

Freemasonry doesn't care about "conversions", if a man finds a reason to leave the Craft (and it does happen) there is no penalty, ill will, derision, or a feeling of betrayal. There is no perceived "contest" by Freemasonry, the only issue that Freemasonry has is the misrepresentation of its Tenets, structure, history, and the need for some to portray it as some "evil, satanic group". Why does Catholicism persist?

Papal Pronouncements.

Listen if you read any of my post the past I never insulted any masons. I have a respect to any fraternal organization but if you want or insult my beliefs and charity events I have done then the hell with you. I stayed open minded and tried to make peace when there is a debate between our groups. Do you want to bring anti-Catholicism into the thread then let�s do it. As for the bar fight comment it just shows that you are an ass.

Pbrez,

you are coming from the KoC and an RCC perspective, and its really ok. I understand where you are coming from, and I don't see you as one of the "You're all damned to hell you satan worshipers you..." sub intellectual groups.

Thanks for posting your questions, they certainly have stimulated some interesting discussion.

I speak the truth. I give you facts it is you to decide to accept them

I must have missed this part. all i saw was the same old feces perpetuated
by those who have made up their minds and want to be confused with the
true facts.

the startling similarities between Masonic and pagan/occult symbolism.

and you will find many more if you take a good look at all flavors of christianity.

Theron,ML,Gerard, MM, and any other of the Masons here i missed, I have a question.
I am reading M&D and have read several other works. I was also a DeMolay
so have a little "background". as i study and read and reflect on things i have read something that occurs to me is that a lot of the ritual and teachings, if that is the proper term, of masonry seem to me to be directed towards that
most difficult of all journeys, the journey within.

Would you all agree that this is an accurate statement/ assesment?
if so could this be a part of the animosity towards Masonry? fear of looking
within?

StalkingWolf:

As you know, I'm a freshly-made Mason - a greenhorn at all this, but having been around Masons and having partaken in ritual, and having indeed read *some* of M&D (from the web, but I want my own, legit copy), I DO get that distinct impression just as you do: it is indeed a journey within first and foermost. Just as in life, you cannot maintain relationships with others (not healthy ones at least), unless your relationship with yourself is healthy. It sounds cliched, I know, but it is very true on a fundamental level. The other part of this "inner journey" sems to also involve discovering your true power and greatness as a human being who follows the lights of Masonry. Masonry challenges you on many levels (how true that is!) and through the struggle and adversity of bettering yourself, you eolve a deeper understanding of yourself . . . . . which is after all, the cornerstone of power, love, friendship.

My opinion is that people fear what they do not know.

Many Catholics also automatically do NOT like what they have been told is bad for them. One of the many reasons I have grown to dislike the religion I am baptized into. Free thinking seems to be frowned upon!
The Catholic Church has much influence in our society, even for those who are non-Catholic...at least it seems so to me

I thnk people distrust groups that are presumed to have access to secrets, hidden knowledge, if you will.
They dislike anything considered non-mainstream.

Originally posted by pbrez
Listen if you read any of my post *SNIP*

I have been reading your posts, it appears that it is you that have failed to read (or more accurately proof read) your own posts. I always look to the nuance, the "subtleties" if you will, in a post to get the true "heartfelt" meaning behind the posters intent. You have a demonstrated contempt for Freemasonry (heck, you won't even capitalize it), you maintain an air of "competition" between Freemasonry and Catholicism (which doesn't exist, at least from our perspective). Now you have imploded upon having your argument picked apart... Resorting to childish outbursts and vulgar name calling. I'm convinced.

Originally posted by pbrez
Listen if you read any of my post the past I never insulted any masons. I have a respect to any fraternal organization but if you want or insult my beliefs and charity events I have done then the hell with you. I stayed open minded and tried to make peace when there is a debate between our groups. Do you want to bring anti-Catholicism into the thread then let�s do it. As for the bar fight comment it just shows that you are an ass.

I think that you are over reacting. I do not think that it is being insulting to your beliefs by agreeing to disagree with them. Can we not agree to disagree in a civilized way?

Gerard

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
Theron,ML,Gerard, MM, and any other of the Masons here i missed, I have a question.
I am reading M&D and have read several other works. I was also a DeMolay
so have a little "background". as i study and read and reflect on things i have read something that occurs to me is that a lot of the ritual and teachings, if that is the proper term, of masonry seem to me to be directed towards that
most difficult of all journeys, the journey within.

Would you all agree that this is an accurate statement/ assesment?
if so could this be a part of the animosity towards Masonry? fear of looking
within?

Of course. The required paradigm shift scares many folks, that are comfortable with just being who they are, in the sure and certain hopes that g-d will forgive them. It is also hardwired xenophobia... fear of that which is unknown, coming from a time of tribalism, which we are only 5000-6000 years removed from.

They fear that which they do not understand, you can see it in their writings. They fear that if they applied to masonry, they would be found wanting, and rejected, and fear that they would not understand that which masonry teaches, or that they would not be able to rise to the level of honorable behavior that masonry requires of its members.

Basically, the stink of fear rises from every word they post against the honorable men of masonry... and in a large sense, I pity them... I answer their bilious tripe only so that the casual reader, and we know that there are a hundred readers for every poster, will see the truth, and know that the nonsense being posted by the haters and the ignorant is just that, ignorance and fear. We MUST show the truth, else the lies they tell will stand alone, unchallenged, and be thought the truth.

Now, not all the oppose masonry are evil, black hearted, ignorant savages. Some misunderstand the bible, and some follow the leadership of a pope in another century. These men are, for the most part, honest, and you can see in their writings the confusion, between the teachings of their religion and the actions of masons which belie what they are told.

I do not hate the folks that post against masons, I cannot, for that itself is against masonic teachings. Rather, I feel sorry for them, to live in a cloud of ignorance and spite deliberately, takes a lot of effort. For myself, I choose masonry and my brothers in masonry.

My worst day as a mason is better than my best day before joining.

G-d Bless my brothers and the ancient and honorable fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons!

Nobody can fear the silly little prats at ground level
They do their male thing and feel good about themselves
Most stay at the bottom rungs and feel good about their small deals
Still, the achievers will progress
They will learn more about the true natureof the world, and, on the level to which their morality can accept or reject the degree of manipulation, they will ascend or stay put
A 32nd degree is on the fulcrum of stay-put or siding with the genocidal powers that really direct the world to their own ends
33 degree and above - you've really made it - everything is your due - you've really made it - f*** the common herd - you know you've got it coming to you and you've circumvented the law of karma
And because you know you've got it, so you will get it, no matter what the cost to the sheeple
Unless the sheeple understand you, and rise up and rip you apart (metaphorically speaking)

Originally posted by dh
Nobody can fear the silly little prats at ground level
They do their male thing and feel good about themselves
Most stay at the bottom rungs and feel good about their small deals
Still, the achievers will progress
They will learn more about the true natureof the world, and, on the level to which their morality can accept or reject the degree of manipulation, they will ascend or stay put
A 32nd degree is on the fulcrum of stay-put or siding with the genocidal powers that really direct the world to their own ends
33 degree and above - you've really made it - everything is your due - you've really made it - f*** the common herd - you know you've got it coming to you and you've circumvented the law of karma
And because you know you've got it, so you will get it, no matter what the cost to the sheeple
Unless the sheeple understand you, and rise up and rip you apart (metaphorically speaking)

uh huh... and this relates to what is being discussed... how? I mean, if you are going to post, do you think you might actually contribute something, or are you just interested in wasting bandwidth with useless prattle?

Huh?
Scared of being revealed by useless prattlers?
Rather like useless eaters?
Masons make a ritual out of useless prattle, dont they?

Originally posted by dh
Nobody can fear the silly little prats at ground level
They do their male thing and feel good about themselves
Most stay at the bottom rungs and feel good about their small deals
Still, the achievers will progress
They will learn more about the true natureof the world, and, on the level to which their morality can accept or reject the degree of manipulation, they will ascend or stay put
A 32nd degree is on the fulcrum of stay-put or siding with the genocidal powers that really direct the world to their own ends
33 degree and above - you've really made it - everything is your due - you've really made it - f*** the common herd - you know you've got it coming to you and you've circumvented the law of karma
And because you know you've got it, so you will get it, no matter what the cost to the sheeple
Unless the sheeple understand you, and rise up and rip you apart (metaphorically speaking)

Are you for real when you post this Nonsense. I would like to think that you have had one too many bottles to drink tonight because what you have posted is wicked and rubbish. The other possibility is that you are eccentric and in need of professional help. If that is the case I suggest you seek professional help before you hurt any body or yourself by posting that crazy post.

Gerard

Oh, Oh - looks like we have another one on our hands - let me guess
3x Degree FreeMasons = "Satanists"! Riddiculous - why do you people even bother to comment on something that you know nothing about?

I agree with you Theron - the Problem is "Herd" or "Tribe" Mentality!!!!

[edit on 24-10-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

dh . . . . . are you a woman?

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