Free Will Or Not Free Will...That Is the QUESTION?

Free Will

and

Free Will in Theology

I for one believe that free will does allow us to make decisions, but that sometimes no matter what decision we make the outcome has been determined. There are many factors involved; synchronicity, free will of others, environment, peer pressure, financial circumstances (limited resources, limited options), etc.

These guidelines for "Free Will" and the theology involved are as follows...

en.wikipedia.org...

Free will is the ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints. The existence of free will and its exact nature and definition have long been debated in philosophy. Historically, the constraint of dominant concern has been nomological determinism, the notion that the present dictates the future entirely and necessarily, that every occurrence results inevitably from prior events. Many hold that nomological determinism must be false in order for free will to be possible, and then debate whether it is true or false and thus whether free will is possible or not. The two main positions within that debate are metaphysical libertarianism, the claim that nomological determinism is false, so free will is at least possible; and hard determinism, the claim that nomological determinism is true, so free will does not exist.

A domino's movement is determined completely by laws of physics. Incompatibilists say that this threatens free will, but compatibilists argue that, even if we are similar to dominoes, we can have a form of free will.

en.wikipedia.org...

Free will in theology is an important part of the debate on free will in general. This article discusses the doctrine of free will as it has been, and is, interpreted within the various branches of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Zoroastrianism. Religions vary greatly in their response to the Standard argument against free will, and thus might appeal to any number of responses to "the paradox of free will" - the claim that omniscience and free will are incompatible.

common defenses:

Jewish philosophy stresses that free will is a product of the intrinsic human soul, using the word neshama (from the Hebrew rootn.sh.m. or .נ.ש.מ meaning "breath"), but the ability to make a free choice is through Yechida (from Hebrew word "yachid", יחיד, singular), the part of the soul that is united with God, the only being that is not hindered by or dependent on cause and effect (thus, freedom of will does not belong to the realm of the physical reality, and inability of natural philosophy to account for it is expected).

In Islam the theological issue is not usually how to reconcile free will with God's foreknowledge, but with God's "jabr," or divine commanding power. al-Ash'ari developed an "acquisition" or "dual-agency" form of compatibilism, in which human free will and divine jabr were both asserted, and which became a cornerstone of the dominant Ash'ari position.[5] In Shia Islam, Ash'aris understanding of a higher balance toward predestination is challenged by most theologists.[6]

Free will, according to Islamic doctrine is the main factor for man's accountability in his/her actions throughout life. All actions taken by man's free will are said to be counted on the Day of Judgement because they are his/her own and not God's.

The philosopher Søren Kierkegaard claimed that divine omnipotence cannot be separated from divine goodness.[7] As a truly omnipotent and good being, God could create beings with true freedom over God. Furthermore, God would voluntarily do so because "the greatest good ... which can be done for a being, greater than anything else that one can do for it, is to be truly free."[8]

Alvin Plantinga's "free will defense" is a contemporary expansion of this theme, adding how God, free will, and evil are consistent.[9]

I think it is a combination of both...we do make free will choices everyday...what to eat...what to wear...who to date...who to hate...where to go...how to get there; then we have to deal with the consequences of our choices and the free will of others to fulfill them...they may not have what you want to eat...your favorite pants are at the laundry...that jerk in front of you cut you off and caused you to miss your exit or crash...the person you want to go out with has no desire for you.

We choose what religion or not to believe in...you were raised by the family to be one thing and at some point you have the ability to decide for yourself...we blame GOD when things go bad...we praise GOD when things go right. I don't believe GOD is pulling puppet strings...we have free will and so do others...determined outcome or not, there are still consequences of actions to deal with. How we respond to those actions and consequences are most definitely free will choices.

BAW33

Obviously, there is a reason for everything. If every single variable were replicated precisely, the same result would occur. Free will, I think, is only truly rendered invalid when a conscious force intervenes. Otherwise, it is happenstance. It is an unhappy mistake, or a fortunate coincidence. Nature is not conscious so far as to say to itself, "I don't like that guy. I'm going to make him trip." And three days later, a gust of wind sends a bird off balance causing a guy to swerve and kick a stone onto a patch of sidewalk where, on a rainy day, that guy that nature didn't like buys a coffee for a lady to warm her up and is busy laughing when he trips on the rock, knocks her over, sending the coffee splashing on a child and everybody goes home upset.

When something is consciously controlling your fate, short term or long term, that is when free will is nonexistent. Otherwise, it's life. Crap happens.

Think of this scenario...

Imagine someone asks you a question, you say "yes", and it results in something bad happen - but at the time when you said "yes" you didn't know it'll turn out bad. Now, you use a time machine to go back in time, to the point where the person asked you the question. You - the future you - are watching yourself - the past you - about to answer the question...

What are you going to say ? "Yes" again. The only reason you would say "No" is because the future you already knows it will not turn out well, but without that intervention from the future you, the mindset of the past you is already set to "yes".

And once you answered yes, you can rewind time and watch yourself say "yes" again and again...

Some say we have free-will of thought, but aren't thoughts the combination of things we experienced in life ? Can you think about something you have absolutely no concept for?

It really makes me think...

reply to post by BrokenAngelWings33


Free will is an illusion.

Variable A happens in order for you to learn about Variable B.
Variable B happens in order for you to learn about Variable C, and so on.

This concept is a good mix of the domino effect and a long term test, both for the test taker and the test giver.

People think we have free will, but the perception of free will is limited to time and personal experience. In short, everything is meant to happen, but I think everything happens, especially in these times, with a sense of normalcy. When you take a step back and just think about what happened, you just have a realization that just makes you say, "WOW."

For instance, you lose your keys and you spend 10 minutes trying to find it. You might think it was just a random occurence, but if you were on the road for that 10 minutes you spent trying to find your keys, you might have been involved in a car accident

Or, you might have been on a long shift and finally waiting to get back home late at night. You see a person on the road back home that is almost close to death due to starvation and cold. You have a spare blanket or jacket that you brought along because of a thought comes to you that you might need it later and some food that you were planning to bring home because you didn't want to cook anything when you got home in the back of your car. You give that spare blanket/jacket and food to the person, and he or she lives another day.

Lot's of variables involved, beyond human comprehension, and everything intertwines beautifully.

Free will being nonexistent is a good thing, in my opinion. It just postulates that everything happens for the good and Father is taking care of everything, from each individual to each microorganism to each flower and to each animal.

My free will allowed me to post this.
Second line.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas

I think it is a combination of both...we do make free will choices everyday...what to eat...what to wear...who to date...who to hate...where to go...how to get there; then we have to deal with the consequences of our choices and the free will of others to fulfill them...they may not have what you want to eat...your favorite pants are at the laundry...that jerk in front of you cut you off and caused you to miss your exit or crash...the person you want to go out with has no desire for you.

There was free will to respond to this post...there was free will for you to write what you wrote...seems as if you have contradicted yourself.

reply to post by arpgme


Your ability to think comes from free will...right?

Originally posted by BrokenAngelWings33
reply to post by DelayedChristmas

 

I think it is a combination of both...we do make free will choices everyday...what to eat...what to wear...who to date...who to hate...where to go...how to get there; then we have to deal with the consequences of our choices and the free will of others to fulfill them...they may not have what you want to eat...your favorite pants are at the laundry...that jerk in front of you cut you off and caused you to miss your exit or crash...the person you want to go out with has no desire for you.

There was free will to respond to this post...there was free will for you to write what you wrote...seems as if you have contradicted yourself.

Nope I have not contradicted myself. It was planned for me to write what I wrote. The number of hairs on our head are planned. The choices we make are already planned. EVERYTHING IS PLANNED. We just think we have free will because of time and we can only see through the scope of human perspective.

Proverbs 16
New International Version (NIV)
16 To humans belong the plans of the heart,
but from the Lord comes the proper answer of the tongue.
2 All a person’s ways seem pure to them,
but motives are weighed by the Lord.
3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do,
and he will establish your plans.
4 The Lord works out everything to its proper end—
even the wicked for a day of disaster.
5 The Lord detests all the proud of heart.
Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.
6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for;
through the fear of the Lord evil is avoided.
7 When the Lord takes pleasure in anyone’s way,
he causes their enemies to make peace with them.
8 Better a little with righteousness
than much gain with injustice.
9 In their hearts humans plan their course,
but the Lord establishes their steps.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


Nope. You have free will...and you continue do deny ignorance...you really need to get a grip on reality...do people kill people or do guns kill people? do bombers drop bombs or do bombs drop themselves? WE all have free will choices to make every day and consequences to deal with from free will of others. That you insist everything is decided in advance is beyond me...you will respond or not, your choice. I can post many more examples for you, but I see you have no free will to change your mind

Originally posted by BrokenAngelWings33
reply to post by DelayedChristmas

 

Nope. You have free will...and you continue do deny ignorance...you really need to get a grip on reality...do people kill people or do guns kill people? do bombers drop bombs or do bombs drop themselves? WE all have free will choices to make every day and consequences to deal with from free will of others. That you insist everything is decided in advance is beyond me...you will respond or not, your choice. I can post many more examples for you, but I see you have no free will to change your mind

I have this argument every time I talk about the illusion of free will and whenever people do not see what I see, they tend to call me naive, tell me to get a grip on reality, or some are kind enough to, as the cliche goes, "live and let live."

I skimmed through your response because I've heard the same natured responses with different faces, but that last line was pretty funny!

Well, I have stated my position as best as I could and even put in some scriptures.

One last time, this thread is the most descriptive one, far better than I can explain, of the perception of free will: www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


Oh no...my free will is gone....I am a robot...cannot compute cannot compute...I must obey your every command...give it a rest...what's laughable is you think anything you say makes any sense...common or otherwise...I have the free will to ignore you from here out...your argument is not only ridiculous...but it carries absolutely no merit...quoting scripture was free will...choosing a religion to bow down to is free will...just keep digging your hole there buddy...and god said go forth and multiply...gave you commandments...what do you need commandments for? You have no free will... right...

reply to post by BrokenAngelWings33


I have free will to make sure you don't get the last word...

Originally posted by BrokenAngelWings33
reply to post by DelayedChristmas

 

Oh no...my free will is gone....I am a robot...cannot compute cannot compute...I must obey your every command...give it a rest...what's laughable is you think anything you say makes any sense...common or otherwise...I have the free will to ignore you from here out...your argument is not only ridiculous...but it carries absolutely no merit...quoting scripture was free will...choosing a religion to bow down to is free will...just keep digging your hole there buddy...and god said go forth and multiply...gave you commandments...what do you need commandments for? You have no free will... right...

edit on 11/30/2012 by BrokenAngelWings33 because: Edit

Why do you respond in the fashion you do? I did not say anything that warrants this type of response. I did not "ride in my high horse." I simply said my piece. I was not being spiteful when describing the last sentence of your last post because I actually did find that funny; it was brilliant how you worked that joke out. I can be a fan of humor without being on the ceiling.

reply to post by BrokenAngelWings33


Every decision we make is the product of free will. There are some who might say that they were forced into a certain decision, but in the end the decision is what they chose. For example, a robber puts a gun to someone's head and says "Give me your wallet or I'll shoot!" so the person gives the robber his wallet and says that he was forced to do it. That isn't true. The victim CHOSE to hand over the wallet rather than take a chance of being shot. Now, the robber maybe would have shot the robbery victim or he may not have- that is dependent on the robber's choice, his own free will. Therefore I would say that we all exercise free will in every choice we make, but the choices made by others factor into our own decisions.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


I apologize...your insistence that there is no free will keeps being used over and over and over again...you were forced to open this thread...and the fingers on your hands were forced to write in this thread...and your mind was compelled by outside forces to keep replying in this thread....FREE WILL exist and you have proved it over and over and over again. That is why I reacted the way I did....tell me again how you have no free will...please...tell me again.

reply to post by littled16


Opinions come and go and then common sense happens....lol...thanks littled. Some people think this is debatable, Free will and the free will of others affect all and sometimes it is meant to happen and free will doesn't matter...I say the answer is both...but to say that it is all or nothing, not likely, but an opinion is free will, right? How you formulate that opinion is free will right, either yours or because of experiences dealing with the free will of others? If you decide to stop off at the bar on the way home...how many drinks you have...free will or alcohol determines this? Drink enough alcohol and you will lose inhibitions, right, still free will...get in a cab, walk or drive home? Free will right? Get to blame the alcohol for the wreck that killed the family of four...who invented alcohol? Who decided it was something we should drink for pleasure? Maybe it was supposed to be used as an antiseptic only...Free will made it something different. Who created the Atom bomb? They took free will and decided that fusion would be a great way to kill millions of people instead of recognizing it as a way to generate an energy source; free will. The list is long throughout history of the choices that Free will has made in the forming of our society.

BAW33

reply to post by BrokenAngelWings33

Originally posted by BrokenAngelWings33
reply to post by arpgme

 

Your ability to think comes from free will...right?

I would like to believe so, but in reality I can't know that. Maybe my brain doesn't think thoughts, maybe thoughts just come and go and my brain is AWARE of it. Maybe my thoughts only exist from phrases and images I picked up along the way. Maybe the thoughts of my reactions were already pre-planned based on my personality - and maybe my personality is also things determined from life...

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by BrokenAngelWings33

 

Originally posted by BrokenAngelWings33
reply to post by arpgme

 

Your ability to think comes from free will...right?

I would like to believe so, but in reality I can't know that. Maybe my brain doesn't think thoughts, maybe thoughts just come and go and my brain is AWARE of it. Maybe my thoughts only exist from phrases and images I picked up along the way. Maybe the thoughts of my reactions were already pre-planned based on my personality - and maybe my personality is also things determined from life...

So what you are saying is your response was programmed? I find that hard to believe...unless you are a robot...when you woke up this morning...what was the first thing you did, the second, the 3rd...is this the same thing everyday or is there variance...I suspect that the free will of others can change it...I suspect that your thought process changes

reply to post by BrokenAngelWings33

If you are present with what is happening there will be a response and it will feel smooth and harmonious. But what can happen is that one gets distracted from what is really occuring by what the mind expects, this causes the jarring.

Everything is just happening but the mind tells stories about how it should or could happen. The mind just writes stories. Just listen to it some time but do it presently.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


And Free will just what....