Ancient greek cave may be origins of Hades myth

An ancient Greek cave collapsed, and buried its many inhabitants alive, researchers say.

A giant cave that might have helped serve as the inspiration for the mythic ancient Greek underworld Hades once housed hundreds of people, potentially making it one of the oldest and most important prehistoric villages in Europe before it collapsed and killed everyone inside, researchers say.

The complex settlement seen in this cave suggests, along with other sites from about the same time, that early prehistoric Europe may have been more complex than previously thought.

It appears as though the cave was big and housed hundreds of people. Alepotrypa, was in habited for a very long time. It was a huge place, likened to the "Mines of Moria" from J.R.R.Tolkiens Lord of the rings.

The main chamber of the cave is about 200 feet (60 meters) tall and up to about 330 feet (100 m) wide. Altogether, the cave is nearly 3,300 feet (1,000 m) long, large enough to have its own lake, in which famed explorer Jacques Cousteau once scuba-dived.

"If you've ever seen 'The Lord of the Rings,' this might make you recall the mines of Moria —the cave is really that impressive," Galaty told LiveScience.

Excavations that have taken place at Alepotrypa since 1970 uncovered tools, pottery, obsidian and even silver and copper artifacts that date back to the Neolithic or New Stone Age, which in Greece began about 9,000 years ago.

It seems people came from far away to bury the dead there, that's crazy.

"Giorgos Papathanassopoulos has always argued this pottery was not local to the site, but came from elsewhere — that the cave was a kind of pilgrimage site where important people were buried, leading to the fanciful idea that this was the original entrance to Hades, that it was the source of the Greek fascination with the underworld," Galaty said.

Chemical analysis of the bones can yield similar insights. "Are people actually bringing bodies from distant locales to bury?" Galaty said.

It sounds like am amazing place.

The source,
www.msnbc.msn.com...

reply to post by punkinworks10


Outstanding find Punkinworks10, extraordinary

Adding a link

DOMESTICITY BY DEFAULT. RITUAL, RITUALIZATION AND CAVE-USE IN THE NEOLITHIC AEGEAN

Also a map to show the location of the cave (and all other caves used during the Neolithic

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by punkinworks10

 

Outstanding find Punkinworks10, extraordinary

Thanks Hans,
Totaly stumbled across it
It will be very interesting to see how deep into antiquity the occupation will ultimately go.
The article mentions neanderthal were in just the next bay over.

And the place was huge, 200' x 3,000".
I wonder what the draw to the gave was

Excellent thread and information thanks.
Coming back later for a bit more of a look see.

reply to post by Hanslune


Thats awsome Hans,
No telling how many sites have been lost to time

Originally posted by punkinworks10

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by punkinworks10

 

Outstanding find Punkinworks10, extraordinary

Thanks Hans,
Totaly stumbled across it
It will be very interesting to see how deep into antiquity the occupation will ultimately go.
The article mentions neanderthal were in just the next bay over.

And the place was huge, 200' x 3,000".
I wonder what the draw to the gave was

Yeah they are still digging there I suspect they'll get down to the 30,000+ range or if we are lucky it might turn out to be a x (10)

Very nice find man!
What I wouldn't give to be able to see how they lived there, we need a time-machine now!
Thanks man, S & F!

Amazing news. So after Troy every myth slowly becoming a fact.

reply to post by Hanslune


Fascinating paper. Thank you for linking that

Originally posted by cowgomoo
Amazing news. So after Troy every myth slowly becoming a fact.

Troy was never considered a myth by the Greeks or the Romans - since the Roman's claim to have come from there, the location however became unknown during the chaos of the barbarian invasion. Once it became safe enough to do exploration in the Ottoman Empire Calvert found it or what is thought to be the city that inspired Homer. However its not a concrete ID

Did we find Troy?

Did we find Troy? - Maybe

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Hades is real.

This cave is just a cave.

Imagine a dry, dusty, desolate landscape, covered in gray dust, black sky with 100ft visibility thanks to YHWH's light being right behind you.

Imagine watching a sinner appear in front you with a look of horror on his face as his body starts to dry up and wilt.

Hardly any dead air to breath and no where to run.

In 50 seconds the sinners' body is nothing more than the dust that surrounds you.

That is Hades.

reply to post by punkinworks10


Awesome read, many thanks! I would like to know why this fellow thinks the pottery was from someplace else, and not there, since the article talks about it having dwellings. My guess is that people did live there, for maybe a very long time. In any case, the history that could be uncovered is fascinating.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
reply to post by punkinworks10

 

Awesome read, many thanks! I would like to know why this fellow thinks the pottery was from someplace else, and not there, since the article talks about it having dwellings. My guess is that people did live there, for maybe a very long time. In any case, the history that could be uncovered is fascinating.

I would guess that artistic styling would be the first clue, then magnet the level of firing and the source of the clay, will feel you that pottery is not from the local tradition. What I would like to know is where the obsidian was from.
The trade in obsidian was far ranging and obsidian traders got around, it was the strategic resource of the time.

Originally posted by punkinworks10
I would guess that artistic styling would be the first clue, then magnet the level of firing and the source of the clay, will feel you that pottery is not from the local tradition. What I would like to know is where the obsidian was from.
The trade in obsidian was far ranging and obsidian traders got around, it was the strategic resource of the time.

That is a good point, and probably easier to pinpoint than ceramics. I think the closest sources were in the Cycladics, but not entirely sure about that.

Have you read the paper that Hanslune linked to? It is really very interesting. I have always wondered whether the initial benefits of obsidian usage were in application to developing butchery skills, and therefore more efficient processing of meat and it's by-products. The way in which other 'token' deposits, or offerings, of such things as copper and silver, have been found at caves in the Aegean, seems to reflect the benefiction of new technologies or discoveries. It would be helpful to know whether the obsidian found in the cave in your OP was worked or in a raw form.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout



This is the study you may want to read but it is unfortunately behind a pay wall

Obsidian in the Aegean

Colin Renfrew, J. R. Cann and J. E. Dixon

The Annual of the British School at Athens
Vol. 60, (1965), pp. 225-247
Published by: British School at Athens

Link to a study of Asia minor obsidian sources

Another also behind a pay wall

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

This is the study you may want to read but it is unfortunately behind a pay wall

Obsidian in the Aegean

Colin Renfrew, J. R. Cann and J. E. Dixon

The Annual of the British School at Athens
Vol. 60, (1965), pp. 225-247
Published by: British School at Athens

Link to a study of Asia minor obsidian sources

Another also behind a pay wall

Thanks Hans, for posting those, even more reading, sweet.
I found this paper of obsidian from melos,

www.academia.edu...

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by punkinworks10
I would guess that artistic styling would be the first clue, then magnet the level of firing and the source of the clay, will feel you that pottery is not from the local tradition. What I would like to know is where the obsidian was from.
The trade in obsidian was far ranging and obsidian traders got around, it was the strategic resource of the time.

That is a good point, and probably easier to pinpoint than ceramics. I think the closest sources were in the Cycladics, but not entirely sure about that.

Have you read the paper that Hanslune linked to? It is really very interesting. I have always wondered whether the initial benefits of obsidian usage were in application to developing butchery skills, and therefore more efficient processing of meat and it's by-products. The way in which other 'token' deposits, or offerings, of such things as copper and silver, have been found at caves in the Aegean, seems to reflect the benefiction of new technologies or discoveries. It would be helpful to know whether the obsidian found in the cave in your OP was worked or in a raw form.

Hey KilgoreTrout,
I just glanced at the paper, I'll sit down and do some rainy day reading this weekend, we are getting hammered.
Your idea about more effective butchering is very interesting, because I was thinking that cordage and fiber technology were one of the reasons that drove stone age obsidian trading. And its in the processing of "meat and its by products", where our two ideas meet , sinew.
Sinew was likely the first fiber strong fiber our ancestors made use of. I'll admit I've had limited experience with the other tool stones like flint, chert and others, but as far as I know nothing makes an edge like obsidian.
The other stones are fine for hunting and rough butchery, but don't have the edge for fine work, like working with fibers.
I think when we started making things from hide , like shelters, canoes and real clothing, the need for a superior edge drove the need for obsidian, in order to cut the sinews used to so them together.
I also think the obsidian trade goes deeper into antiquity than we currently accept.

reply to post by Hanslune


Thanks for those, though I'm sadly not in a position to pay to read the two that require it. The other one is very technical and will take me some time to digest However, it does seem that, depending upon the sample, it is possible to trace the source of obsidian with some accuracy. In which case, it could provide an indicator of just how well travelled the caves users were, or more likely, who their trade partners were. Thinking about it, depending upon which strata of the cave's history the obsidian was found, I suppose that despite the relative closeness of the Cycladics to the cave that that is over-ruled by the fact that they would still have had to have accessed them from Anatolia due to currents etc. So in actual terms, the obsidian in Anatolia would be the closest source.

reply to post by punkinworks10


Wow! I'd never even thought of that. Sinew as sewing thread. Excellent. Love it

The needle comes in at about 15,000 years ago, I believe, but given a sharp and precise cutting implement, you can punch holes in leather and would be able to thread the sinew through without a needle. Similarly, with such a sharp implement you can make leather thongs for tying and binding. That technology in and of itself, meant that those people could manufacture clothing and venture out of the warmer zones, as well as the ability to carry water, and other supplies. Given that there is obsidian in the Rift Valley, perhaps obsidian, finished leather and sinew to bind it, was the technological development by which the very first human diaspora were (successfully) able to be launched.