Fiscal Cliff: In Your Face

reply to post by neo96


We seem at cross purposes here. If the corporations had paid their employees the fair share in profits, then the government would not be paying out money in social security and welfare to the huge degree it has.
They are doing so because they are too timid and boot-licking to require that these modern day robber barons either pay the employees or pay the confiscatory taxes to cover the social ills the government steps into while they skate away with their largesse to offshore accounts.

What do you not understand about this?

reply to post by PaperbackWriter


Come again?

There are thousands of those evil corporations that offer profit sharing, they also offer stock options, they also offer 401ks etc. and those evil corporations are paying half of their SS benefits, as well as their unemployment benefits.

grover norquist will force republicans to go over the cliff, to protect their re-election chances, because they signed the "no-new-tax" pledge. of course, obama will get the blame, standard operating procedure for the last 4 years

reply to post by PaperbackWriter


With all due respect, we can continue to argue back and forth both the cause and effect, as well as a way out, but CLEARLY my previous post has exposed that such arguments are fruitless and moot!

The game is over. The players are in the locker room. The balls have been put in their respective lockers. And the sprinklers have been turned on to water the playing field. Why then do we continue to wait patiently in our seats for more game action? There won't be any!

Greece and Spain are a perfect demonstration of what awaits us. It is unavoidable. You may be able to put a brain-dead patient on life-support, but the patient is still dead. Eventually even their body will reject the life-support and stop working. Analogously, the past 30 years have seen the US on life support. The body is beginning to reject even those sustaining efforts. The patient will now die! It is inevitable!

What we should be discussing, debating or arguing about has nothing to do with trivialities such as tax hikes versus cuts but HOW DO WE UNWIND THIS BROKEN SYSTEM while doing the least amount of damage. The pain is unavoidable. Since there is no real wealth to lose, what are we protecting?

Time to start over!

reply to post by neo96


If they were paying a living wage, then why are so many people on food stamps?
Why are houses going into foreclosure?
Stock options don't mean diddly. The company can water down those stocks and the whole market is a sham.

If a company has a profit of say $100,000,000 after expenses, yet only pays their employees say one tenth of that in salaries leaving $90,000,000 in profits, where should the money go? Into huge taxes or back to the employees who made it possible?

But, let's back up a minute. On a company like that, they usually made that huge excess profit on offshore labor of pennies on the dollar in the first place.

Give an example of a company you are holding up as a bastion of fairness to their employees?

For the OP we are addressing how to cut government spending by reducing social welfare systems.

reply to post by PaperbackWriter


People need to stop with that living wage crap because like I said that wage is not just an hourly wage that translates to SS benefits,unemployment benefits, and everything else.

Shifting the burden from the employee to the employer leads to job destruction, and the employer does what they are suppose to do with their input costs are more than it costs to keep the doors open.

They lay off.fire or go out of business.

reply to post by kozmo


I totally understand and agree with what you are saying by and large.
The problem is you can't start over unless you can figure out a way for the billionaires and hundred millionaires to bring their loot back to the table.

Now that just isn't going to happen.
No matter how much money you pump into the system it's designed to funnel upwards into the hands of a relative few. You can't start over with so many heavy thumbs on the scale out there holding the wherewithall
to buy out every other player on the board.

reply to post by neo96


PROFITS. That means all the money left after expenses. Then consider how they should be divvied up among those who made it possible.

It should either be taxed prohibitively or shared by all in a more equitable manner than has been.
The tax is to cover the cost burden by the government to make up the short fall not taken care of by
the employers.

If we want a healthy society that is the way it has to be. It is much better for the corps to play fair.
And yes, that requires a living wage or salary.
That's how it was done in the past successfully.
A man could sell suits at a department store and support his family!
It's a social contract that has been irrevocably broken.

Greed is the bottom line problem.

That dude was just a little bit hyper...

I somewhat agree with him. The Republicans need to consider what is being said unless they are afraid it is correct.

As a Libertarian, I absolutely abhor big government, taxes, the police/Nanny state and all the freedom stripping and rights crushing legislation we have had shoved down our throats.

But consider the guy's point. "IF" we let the Dem's have their way and it DOES NOT accomplish anything...that will be a huge moment of realization for all the people. I am not a total dolt, I do know how to research history and I do know what the effective tax rates have been in the past and how they compare to the times of economic prosperity.

We tried one way and it has not accomplished the goal...we cut taxes on the "job creators" and they did not create jobs. Instead, the wrung their hands in fear and sat on their money. Perhaps the way to go is somewhat of a "rock and a hard place" analogy. You either invest your money into your business and hiring...which scores tax reductions...or...we tax your profits at a higher rate and give it back to the people in forms of Gov jobs, Gov assistance and psuedo corporate welfare where the poor and low wage worker are subsidized by the Gov so the private sector doesn't have to pay as high of a wage. Kinda madness isn't it?

I think most of us are intelligent enough to understand there is a stagnation of money flowing from the top and back into the economy. It has been proven that by putting it out there, inevitably the corporations get it back and then some. Another analogy...think of the rain cycles...it rains...the water collects, runs down stream...evaporates...and rains again. The people with the Lion's share of money have not been raining...

I say we let the Dems have their way...if it works...Wonderful. If it DOE NOT work...then maybe the people will see the false two party paradigm in a new light and vote in what needs to happen...a whole new House, Senate and President...hopefully filled with Libertarians, Independents and Greens...time to kiss the false two party paradigm of Dems and Repubs goodbye if this thing fails...

reply to post by PaperbackWriter


Who made it possible?

The person who bought the real estate for said business,paid the property taxes,bought all the equipment, and everything else the business owner does.

All so someone can walk up fill out an application and then cry bout how they don't make enough.

The employer takes all the risk and is "entitled" to that reward people don't like it?

They can go start their own business, but oh wait never mind just easier to cry "pay me more".

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by PaperbackWriter

 

Who made it possible?

The person who bought the real estate for said business,paid the property taxes,bought all the equipment, and everything else the business owner does.

All so someone can walk up fill out an application and then cry bout how they don't make enough.

The employer takes all the risk and is "entitled" to that reward people don't like it?

They can go start their own business, but oh wait never mind just easier to cry "pay me more".

I guess it's a matter of whether the business owner needs to have a bank account with 6 zeros or 8, 10, 12 zeros to feel like he's being 'justly compensated" for his "risk and entitlement".

If every business owner feels that way, then he shouldn't look out scanning the horizon one day wondering where
all the customers are. The customers were the employees they paid minimum wage to, or cut hiring, in order to amass their fortune.
It doesn't work in the long run. Only in the short.

reply to post by PaperbackWriter


Yeah well that is the business owners call to make it isn't mine,yours, or government if people think business owner's are suppose to work for free they have another thing coming.

Don't think a person should make $30 an hour for flipping burgers or sweeping a broom, etc. irritates the hell out of me how people think Americans of today are better than those who have come before.

With the progress of technology the American worker has it easier than our parents and grand parents that is a true fact, but nope.

Dictate pay and benefits, the anti thesis of free market principles.

Originally posted by PaperbackWriter

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by PaperbackWriter

 

Who made it possible?

The person who bought the real estate for said business,paid the property taxes,bought all the equipment, and everything else the business owner does.

All so someone can walk up fill out an application and then cry bout how they don't make enough.

The employer takes all the risk and is "entitled" to that reward people don't like it?

They can go start their own business, but oh wait never mind just easier to cry "pay me more".

I guess it's a matter of whether the business owner needs to have a bank account with 6 zeros or 8, 10, 12 zeros to feel like he's being 'justly compensated" for his "risk and entitlement".

If every business owner feels that way, then he shouldn't look out scanning the horizon one day wondering where
all the customers are. The customers were the employees they paid minimum wage to in order to amass their fortune.
It doesn't work in the long run. Only in the short.

I wouldn't waste my time arguing with neo about this. I don't post often but I do keep track of people on here rather well, and I've been watching his posts for a while. He's convinced the super wealthy in this country are saints, deserving of millions more than the pathetic "crying" peons that actually do most of the work. He finds nothing wrong with the massive income gap in this country and its historical relevance to the collapse of civilizations.

Do business owners deserve more as a reward for their hard work? Probably. The question that should be asked is, should a hard working and responsible person barely make enough to live on and live in poverty while said business owner takes most of the fruits of that hard working person's labor? Some would say so, and many of them lived in early America and other slave economies, owned slaves to whom they "generously" gave just enough to live on and have a life barely above starvation and homelessness.

The previous chart says it all. The last time the income gap reached this level, people started revolting against their corporate oligarchs, often violently. It will reach that point again, but its going to take some more time and an even greater gap than we have now.

And should I even mention the huge subsidies, bailouts, and tax breaks most corporate entities get on a regular basis? Most people don't know that corporate bailouts have been taking place for 40 years in this country, and the total is far more than the few hundred billion we saw a few years ago. There's barely a single large corporation in this country that has not taken some sort of taxpayer assistance to support constant growth where there would be none, or just to stay afloat for that matter.

reply to post by StrangeOldBrew

wouldn't waste my time arguing with neo about this. I don't post often but I do keep track of people on here rather well, and I've been watching his posts for a while. He's convinced the super wealthy in this country are saints, deserving of millions more than the pathetic "crying" peons that actually do most of the work. He finds nothing wrong with the massive income gap in this country and its historical relevance to the collapse of civilizations.

Haven't been keeping track very well because they would have seen where I abhore class warfare pitting rich agianst poor the middle class against the rich, and so on.

The simple fact is they would have read:

I support the abolition of the income tax because it is nothing but a tool to keep those congressman in power.

Originally posted by StrangeOldBrew

Originally posted by PaperbackWriter

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by PaperbackWriter

 

Who made it possible?

The person who bought the real estate for said business,paid the property taxes,bought all the equipment, and everything else the business owner does.

All so someone can walk up fill out an application and then cry bout how they don't make enough.

The employer takes all the risk and is "entitled" to that reward people don't like it?

They can go start their own business, but oh wait never mind just easier to cry "pay me more".

I guess it's a matter of whether the business owner needs to have a bank account with 6 zeros or 8, 10, 12 zeros to feel like he's being 'justly compensated" for his "risk and entitlement".

If every business owner feels that way, then he shouldn't look out scanning the horizon one day wondering where
all the customers are. The customers were the employees they paid minimum wage to in order to amass their fortune.
It doesn't work in the long run. Only in the short.

I wouldn't waste my time arguing with neo about this. I don't post often but I do keep track of people on here rather well, and I've been watching his posts for a while. He's convinced the super wealthy in this country are saints, deserving of millions more than the pathetic "crying" peons that actually do most of the work. He finds nothing wrong with the massive income gap in this country and its historical relevance to the collapse of civilizations.

Do business owners deserve more as a reward for their hard work? Probably. The question that should be asked is, should a hard working and responsible person barely make enough to live on and live in poverty while said business owner takes most of the fruits of that hard working person's labor? Some would say so, and many of them lived in early America and other slave economies, owned slaves to whom they "generously" gave just enough to live on and have a life barely above starvation and homelessness.

The previous chart says it all. The last time the income gap reached this level, people started revolting against their corporate oligarchs, often violently. It will reach that point again, but its going to take some more time and an even greater gap than we have now.

And should I even mention the huge subsidies, bailouts, and tax breaks most corporate entities get on a regular basis? Most people don't know that corporate bailouts have been taking place for 40 years in this country, and the total is far more than the few hundred billion we saw a few years ago. There's barely a single large corporation in this country that has not taken some sort of taxpayer assistance to support constant growth where there would be none, or just to stay afloat for that matter.

edit on 28-11-2012 by StrangeOldBrew because: (no reason given)

Thank You. You saved someone a lot of time and hopefully stoppped useless pages of the same ole from the same ole.
S&F's for you.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by StrangeOldBrew

 

wouldn't waste my time arguing with neo about this. I don't post often but I do keep track of people on here rather well, and I've been watching his posts for a while. He's convinced the super wealthy in this country are saints, deserving of millions more than the pathetic "crying" peons that actually do most of the work. He finds nothing wrong with the massive income gap in this country and its historical relevance to the collapse of civilizations.

Haven't been keeping track very well because they would have seen where I abhore class warfare pitting rich agianst poor the middle class against the rich, and so on.

The simple fact is they would have read:

I support the abolition of the income tax because it is nothing but a tool to keep those congressman in power.

Abolition of income tax is all good and well, but at this point its only a very small part of the solution. Currently there is a culture of unprecedented greed and wealth hoarding in the upper echelons of wealthy society that must be addressed. Dismantling this culture and the institutions that support it is not class warfare; its simply resetting the norm to a more equitable relationship between employer and employee. Because of this culture, corporate oligarchs are incapable of making the changes necessary to support stable middle and lower classes. As such, other measures must be taken to force them to change, to prevent them from deporting jobs to countries in which slave labor has been accepted as normal, and to decrease the gap between their bloated bank accounts and lives of abject luxury and the paycheck to paycheck edge-of-the-knife borderline starvation of many employees that has been the result.

There are many ways to do this, and one (mostly misguided) is to impose a massive increase in taxes on corporate profits to force them into the choice of paying their employees more or giving the government more. The funny part being that with the depths to which government has been infiltrated by these same corporate interests, they would surely find a way to get it back anyway.

Another solution is, of course, active and potentially violent revolt against corporate welfare, which has always dwarfed social welfare by trillions. It has happened before, and will happen again.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by PaperbackWriter

 

Yeah well that is the business owners call to make it isn't mine,yours, or government if people think business owner's are suppose to work for free they have another thing coming.

Don't think a person should make $30 an hour for flipping burgers or sweeping a broom, etc. irritates the hell out of me how people think Americans of today are better than those who have come before.

With the progress of technology the American worker has it easier than our parents and grand parents that is a true fact, but nope.

Dictate pay and benefits, the anti thesis of free market principles.

edit on 28-11-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

Sorry Neo, but if you want to continue to be a Welfare Queen then move to China. I and the rest of the working class can not afford to keep you any more.

The only way to cut entitlement programs is to pay a living wage. Companies that pay less expect the Government to pick up the deficit and then throw a tantrum when the Tax man comes calling.

I and the rest of the Working Class can not afford to fund your Champagne lifestyle.

You've had a good run for the past 32 years but the Gravy Train has come to its end.

Originally posted by kozmo
reply to post by PaperbackWriter

 

With all due respect, we can continue to argue back and forth both the cause and effect, as well as a way out, but CLEARLY my previous post has exposed that such arguments are fruitless and moot!

The game is over. The players are in the locker room. The balls have been put in their respective lockers. And the sprinklers have been turned on to water the playing field. Why then do we continue to wait patiently in our seats for more game action? There won't be any!

Greece and Spain are a perfect demonstration of what awaits us. It is unavoidable. You may be able to put a brain-dead patient on life-support, but the patient is still dead. Eventually even their body will reject the life-support and stop working. Analogously, the past 30 years have seen the US on life support. The body is beginning to reject even those sustaining efforts. The patient will now die! It is inevitable!

What we should be discussing, debating or arguing about has nothing to do with trivialities such as tax hikes versus cuts but HOW DO WE UNWIND THIS BROKEN SYSTEM while doing the least amount of damage. The pain is unavoidable. Since there is no real wealth to lose, what are we protecting?

Time to start over!

This post and your previous one are spot on.
We understand our currency is fiat. But, before it all goes by the wayside, the winners of the last monopoly game will convert their 'money' into land, oil, gold whatever and it will be the same as before in no time flat.

It would be like we start over and you and I and 300 million of us get $200 at the beginning of the new game after the unwind, while there are a set of players who have $ hundreds of millions and billions in assets at the "reset".

The other problem is the game will have a whole lot of bondholders taking over Kentucky, Marvin Gardens, The B&O Railroad, Water Works and Park Place from other countries to settle their debts. Read China and Japan and France.

We'll be lucky to have Mediterranean and Baltic Ave to cal our own between a hundred million of us!
The middle class will probably be able to share Vermont and Orient Ave. when all is said and done.

But, I don't see an orderly unwind. I see the snapping back of a rubber band.

reply to post by CALGARIAN


The fiscal cliff is real. There is no amount of bridge building they can do to cross the ravine which exists off the cliff ...

I will predict that the Congressional fix will be a bridge to nowhere called! "Extend and Pretend"

no that was an easy prediction ..... sarcasm at the reduced price of free ....

reply to post by StrangeOldBrew


What?

over 200 million Americans on social programs is not a problem just the evil rich?

Right.