ALIENS & UFOS Discussion Policy Not Based On Evidence But On Hearsay

reply to post by The Shrike


A 'total lie' you say? 'Cant find it to quote it here'?

So in the first couple of lines of your thread, you didnt say "Nothing that they wrote (Friedman, Moore, et al), pro-UFO crash/aliens, is supported by historic facts. My opinion runs counter to the accepted norm because I am not a believer"

So you didnt say " 95% of the members who attend to this forum are believers, really gullible believers." or " You can accept everything Edgar Mitchell says outside of his expertise as a U.S. astronaut but I think he's a hack. You really don't know what you're talking about. Is this arrogant enough for you? There's plenty more where that came from!" or "So far, I've dealt with closed-minded know-it-alls. " or "I am brilliant! Because I'm not a gullible believer and I don't rely on fantasies to satisfy my need for knowledge. I accept what makes sense to me especially when it's presented so that it is unquestionable." or "Except for individuals such as myself who is sick and tired of dealing with the gullible believers who ignore history and feel that it is more hip to accept lies rather than the truth" ?

And you didnt say to one guy "Why don't you put your money in your big mouth and complain about my threads to the admins of ATS? I'd love to read their reply to you, whiner. Time to change your soiled diapers. " or "One thing my threads are successful for and that's allowing others to express their ignorance. Does it make you feel better to allow you and your ilk to spew the results of a low education? " or "they're not doubters, they're gullible believers." or "Your qualifications are that you and ascension211, Thunda, Imtor, Jay-morris, chunder, Morg234, and anomalie seem to have attended RAHHS." ?

And you didnt say, when someone agreed with you "I visualize us standing back to back against the advancing armies of ALIENS & UFOS members carrying high a banner that reads "IGNORANCE REIGNS, DEATH TO ALL ANTI-ROSWELL UFO CRASHERS!" ? or when talking about Stanton Friedman, you didnt say " they had a ready audience of non-questioning gullibles." or "The evidence for Roswell was produced in 1947 but the believers don't want to accept it 'cause it ruins their need for UFO fantasy" ?

I could continue, but I really dont enjoy embarrassing senior citizens. And before you deny anything (or call me a liar again), I must remind you that all the quotes here are copied and pasted from your 'putting Roswell to bed' thread. You see, this is what I dont understand- you must have known I could just go to your other thread and do that, so its one of a couple of reasons; Either you just want to seem smart and continue a bad tempered arguement, or you genuinely forgot that you had written all that, and neither of those reasons is very healthy.......

Originally posted by Thunda
reply to post by The Shrike

 

A 'total lie' you say? 'Cant find it to quote it here'?

So in the first couple of lines of your thread, you didnt say "Nothing that they wrote (Friedman, Moore, et al), pro-UFO crash/aliens, is supported by historic facts. My opinion runs counter to the accepted norm because I am not a believer"

So you didnt say " 95% of the members who attend to this forum are believers, really gullible believers." or " You can accept everything Edgar Mitchell says outside of his expertise as a U.S. astronaut but I think he's a hack. You really don't know what you're talking about. Is this arrogant enough for you? There's plenty more where that came from!" or "So far, I've dealt with closed-minded know-it-alls. " or "I am brilliant! Because I'm not a gullible believer and I don't rely on fantasies to satisfy my need for knowledge. I accept what makes sense to me especially when it's presented so that it is unquestionable." or "Except for individuals such as myself who is sick and tired of dealing with the gullible believers who ignore history and feel that it is more hip to accept lies rather than the truth" ?

And you didnt say to one guy "Why don't you put your money in your big mouth and complain about my threads to the admins of ATS? I'd love to read their reply to you, whiner. Time to change your soiled diapers. " or "One thing my threads are successful for and that's allowing others to express their ignorance. Does it make you feel better to allow you and your ilk to spew the results of a low education? " or "they're not doubters, they're gullible believers." or "Your qualifications are that you and ascension211, Thunda, Imtor, Jay-morris, chunder, Morg234, and anomalie seem to have attended RAHHS." ?

And you didnt say, when someone agreed with you "I visualize us standing back to back against the advancing armies of ALIENS & UFOS members carrying high a banner that reads "IGNORANCE REIGNS, DEATH TO ALL ANTI-ROSWELL UFO CRASHERS!" ? or when talking about Stanton Friedman, you didnt say " they had a ready audience of non-questioning gullibles." or "The evidence for Roswell was produced in 1947 but the believers don't want to accept it 'cause it ruins their need for UFO fantasy" ?

I could continue, but I really dont enjoy embarrassing senior citizens. And before you deny anything (or call me a liar again), I must remind you that all the quotes here are copied and pasted from your 'putting Roswell to bed' thread. You see, this is what I dont understand- you must have known I could just go to your other thread and do that, so its one of a couple of reasons; Either you just want to seem smart and continue a bad tempered arguement, or you genuinely forgot that you had written all that, and neither of those reasons is very healthy.......

Very well said

Eddie has gone as far as wishing for the deaths of certain people then getting very excited when they died. Budd Hopkins is a great example. That's beyond disturbing and what makes this "man" sick.

He also has a habit of saying he's very close to certain people in ufology. I've asked some of them by e-mail if they know him personally (I know a great deal about Eddie ;-) ) and most had never heard of him. A few were new to him by what he does here and all over the internet and a couple knew of him from past experiences where he was known for showing up at conventions where he would do the same he does here. Talk a lot of garbage.

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by Kandinsky
snip

I don't see you nor any other Mods getting involved when your beloved believers think it's alright to fling hatred, insults, and disrespect on those that do not agree with their distorted beliefs.

Coming from you thats laughable most of your posts come across arrogant, insulting and disrespectful...i think you should take leaf out of your own book before you complaining about others.

Originally posted by Ectoplasm8
I'm baffled by people that so readily accept a claim, crop circles for example, based mainly on the words of others or so-called "experts". To me, it shows an incredible naivety that forgoes any simple common sense. Most of the posts regarding UFOs do away with basic common sense in favor of a belief. A belief which is no comparison to a fact. I speak in facts, yet so many here speak with such conviction of their belief, as if it is a fact. I joined mainly to debate people about this. I've had run-ins with some rude responses or people that respond with nonsensical replies. I'll admit, when I first joined I'd used a few sarcastic demeaning terms but stopped soon after it was pointed out, understanding it was the wrong approach. However, I do find myself drawn back into that mindset by many of the responses to what I say.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by The Shrike

 

Here are 10 examples of cases with either multiple witness to extraordinary claims or trained observers in the Military, Air force, CIA, defense and space program. Evidences includes actual film footage that has proved genuine, physical evidence such as burn marks and radiation levels at the scene, radar evidence and multiple expert witness from different vantage points......

Video, burned ground, radiation levels in no way prove that whatever was seen was piloted by a superior alien species from another world. This is the perfect example of "proof" on the level of a believer.

I think that it does. Alien intelligence and belief in it is largely divided into two camps; those that witnessed it and those that haven't...yet. Sometimes seeing is believing.

reply to post by The Shrike

I have a problem with the wording and the meaning behind them. There are no reliable "historic and contemporary events" related to "extraterrestrial encounters". All that exist are unprobable hearsay, assumptions and speculation. No one has ever produced solid evidence of an encounter. In fact, those that have claimed encounters have usually done so to make a buck off the gullible. A perfect example of such is Travis Walton. I know that this will trigger an avalanche from his supporters and the thread may very well be hijacked by them. I don't care, not one of the believers will ever be able to produce evidence and they will react only emotionally. Travis counts on them to continue making a buck and gaining notoriety. There is no evidence either from the Hill's claim regardless of what you want to believe.

Unquestionable, and verifiable proof? What kind of conspiracy theory has such things? Would it not just be a truth then? What some people fail to realize is that the reason we talk about these subjects coincides with the lack of information presented.

I can't go about proving that the US has a secret space program if the information is just unavailable. Do you know how easy it is to do something in secret these days? With underground bunkers and places like the NSA's new Cyber Command I have a feeling clandestine is something of a specialty.

I agree that yelling about aliens in space ships is pretty darn spurious. I'm of the mindset that probably 99% of what we see is our stuff.

As for cover-ups, they exist in almost every facet of our society. The honest truth is that our governments are far more concerned with keeping information private than public these days.

And why does ATS support the examination of the extraterrestrial non-existent "phenomenom"? How can ATS prove that those claiming "honest experiences" actually had those experiences? Will anyone at ATS HQ come on here and explain to us why they are so pro-extraterrestrial that those claiming such experiences cannot be taken to task but should be treated with kid gloves?

ATS is a member driven content website. This means that ATS provides the venue, you provide the content. All the staff are here to do is facilitate, to best of our abilities an environment where nobody is flinging poo. It's not about being pro extraterrestrial, it's about being open to the topics at hand.

I can't fathom that ALL these people are charlatans. That there's some sort of mass hallucination going on in our minds. The idea that we are not alone permeates our culture to the very beginning of recorded history. Maybe it's all hearsay, maybe it's based on nothing.

In any case, I would think that those smart enough to frequent this board as often as they do, have no problem discerning an authentic story. At least not for very long.

I think ATS ought to lighten up and allow freedom of expression and ban only profanity. No one should be allowed to express bs at the expense of those who recognize the bs and want to criticize the bs'ers.

Sorry, but in this case I entirely disagree. You can do everything you are asking to do above, with civility. You see trying to treat people like you are better than them, or are better because you have more information than them, only compounds the problem.

If all you want to do is "criticize the bs'ers", then where comes the part where you actually give them the right information? You certainly can't educate a person if you promote a superiority complex while doing it.

Let us have a go at them!

You already can.

~Tenth

Originally posted by newcovenant

I think that it does. Alien intelligence and belief in it is largely divided into two camps; those that witnessed it and those that haven't...yet. Sometimes seeing is believing.

Seeing an alien life form piloting a spacecraft is "seeing is believing". The only thing being seen is an object in a video and burnt ground.. It's like saying you saw a car speed by at 100MPH with dark tinted windows and you could identify the drivers sex, race, approximate age and color of their hair. Of course you couldn't identify the person, so you're only making an assumption. Only with the car, you'd be right in assuming it was a human being driving because humans are a given. Giving a matter-of-fact "logical" assumption an alien is piloting an object in the sky without proving first that aliens even exist, is a horrible methodology. With that type of logic, it's possible the alien could be driving the car too.

reply to post by Ectoplasm8
The precedents have been set for such claims and discussions long ago in the 1950s with the French UFO wave of 1954 and those of Simonton and the Hills in the early 1960s.

Do we know they were entities, hoaxers or misperceptions? Of course we don't - they are as open to interpretation as anyone feels able to justify. The point is that those incidents were claimed and have been discussed ever since.

The recent discussion about the Zamora sighting is a great example of the validity of open debate. Very little of the to and fro involved the various sides using name-calling to express a point.

reply to post by Kandinsky


Exactly, Kandinsky, and if we cant discuss these issues here- on the Aliens & UFO's discussion board, without manners and name calling, then the board would be in a sorry state.

I just cant understand how a supposedly logical skeptic cannot put their point over without resorting to insults and arrogance.

And if people voicing their opinions or experience on the other side of the fence is so abhorrent, then this is the wrong place for you.

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by Kandinsky
snip

I don't see you nor any other Mods getting involved when your beloved believers think it's alright to fling hatred, insults, and disrespect on those that do not agree with their distorted beliefs. You'd think that ATS management would support those exhibiting intelligence, common sense, reason and logic all of which are absent in believers' boring threads, usually pushing religion and threads that have no connection to the forum's name ALIENS & FORUMS. A fresh breath by the name of Druscilla is getting insulted by the OP and no one comes around and tell the OP to stop using offending language and deal with the thread's topic. These peoples' POV are not subject to criticism 'cause they have the support of ATS.

It's those such as me, Druscilla, Ectroplasm8, Jim Oberg, Phage and a few other thinkers that have to put with less than friendly comments from the believers who rarely, IF EVER, are censored by the MOds.

Treat all of us equally. Get on the believers' case to try to improve their mentally-challenged posts and be glad that thinkers think coming here and contributing is worth the hassle.

Monitor the threads better and get rid of the duplicates and get rid of the threads with religious terms on the title. The forum IS ALIENS & UFOS. Restrict the conversations to those two topics. How dare the religious be allowed to flourish here with ATS' protection?

The bottom line of what I'm trying to say is that this being a public forum open to all, as long as civility is practiced, we "skeptics/debunkers/non-believers" have to get along with the opposite crowd. And we try. But believers are venomous and they get away with it because ATS offers a protective umbrella to them so anything goes.

Believers should be cautioned by management that they are free to post whatever they like but it would be better if they were to offer material that is not so bizarre that there is no connection to reality 'cause if it's not rooted in reality a common sense conversation cannot take place.

There have to be some standards. Or just retitle the forum WILLY-NILLY ALIENS & UFOS!

Your comments are seriously appreciated.

edit on 25-11-2012 by The Shrike because: To add comments.

I find it very disturbing the way people like you are so obsessed with
believers abd skeptics. Its people like you that has turned skeptics into
a new age religon.

There are some great skeptics on this board, and i have learned alot from
these people. You are not one of them! You just seem to be obsessed with
telling everyone how great you are, and even more disturbing, you look at
believers as if they have commited mass murder or something.

A good skeptic, you are not.

And as for believers throwing insults. You have thrown plenty of insults
in your threads and posts. But you think thats okay because you are
"intelligent" and they are not?

Originally posted by Ectoplasm8

Originally posted by newcovenant

I think that it does. Alien intelligence and belief in it is largely divided into two camps; those that witnessed it and those that haven't...yet. Sometimes seeing is believing.

Seeing an alien life form piloting a spacecraft is "seeing is believing". The only thing being seen is an object in a video and burnt ground.. It's like saying you saw a car speed by at 100MPH with dark tinted windows and you could identify the drivers sex, race, approximate age and color of their hair. Of course you couldn't identify the person, so you're only making an assumption. Only with the car, you'd be right in assuming it was a human being driving because humans are a given. Giving a matter-of-fact "logical" assumption an alien is piloting an object in the sky without proving first that aliens even exist, is a horrible methodology. With that type of logic, it's possible the alien could be driving the car too.

Yada, yada, yada.....There are people who deal with these things everyday and they can tell the difference between an actual event and a film that might be being made in the area. The UFO phenomena is like many others. If you are not interested or a skeptic you will not do as thorough an investigation into the subject as someone who for one reason or another, perhaps they saw something for themselves, might do. If you study enough accounts of UFO's you will come across the convincing witness's, and evidence and the 4000 or so cases that can be nothing but otherworldly, intelligently driven spacecraft and you might finally come to that conclusion yourself. If you haven't reached that point yet - you have not studied the phenomena as thoroughly as some of us.

Originally posted by newcovenant
If you are not interested or a skeptic you will not do as thorough an investigation into the subject as someone who for one reason or another, perhaps they saw something for themselves, might do.

Some sceptics investigate more than some believers, as some believers just accept anything that follows their own line of thought without even thinking about the case.

If you study enough accounts of UFO's you will come across the convincing witness's, and evidence and the 4000 or so cases that can be nothing but otherworldly, intelligently driven spacecraft and you might finally come to that conclusion yourself.

According to you. Why do you think there's no other possible explanation?

If you haven't reached that point yet - you have not studied the phenomena as thoroughly as some of us.

Or just has a different way of thinking.

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by newcovenant
If you are not interested or a skeptic you will not do as thorough an investigation into the subject as someone who for one reason or another, perhaps they saw something for themselves, might do.

Some sceptics investigate more than some believers, as some believers just accept anything that follows their own line of thought without even thinking about the case.

If you study enough accounts of UFO's you will come across the convincing witness's, and evidence and the 4000 or so cases that can be nothing but otherworldly, intelligently driven spacecraft and you might finally come to that conclusion yourself.

According to you. Why do you think there's no other possible explanation?

If you haven't reached that point yet - you have not studied the phenomena as thoroughly as some of us.

Or just has a different way of thinking.

Or hasn't studied enough to come across the case or cases that will convince him or her this is something real and happening on earth unbeknownst to many...you for example.

I was a skeptic as many people start out but after awhile and serious open minded investigation most "normally thinking" people become convinced. Even if you were not witness to an event yourself if you study the cases available you will find many without human explanation. I think there is no other possible explanation sometimes because the capabilities displayed are beyond us or ours. Clearly. Eliminating human beings...that leaves others, since flying machines don't make themselves.

reply to post by ArMaP

Some sceptics investigate more than some believers, as some believers just accept anything that follows their own line of thought without even thinking about the case.

Yes, however I think we are talking about a different kind of skeptic.
There are skeptics who believe in ET's & UFOs and absolutely you are correct. They investigate more than "believers." There are skeptics who don't believe in UFO's at all and I am not sure what they do. I don't think it's investigate UFO's though.

Originally posted by newcovenant


Or hasn't studied enough to come across the case or cases that will convince him or her this is something real and happening on earth unbeknownst to many...you for example.

I was a skeptic as many people start out but after awhile and serious open minded investigation most "normally thinking" people become convinced. Even if you were not witness to an event yourself if you study the cases available you will find many without human explanation. I think there is no other possible explanation sometimes because the capabilities displayed are beyond us or ours. Clearly. Eliminating human beings...that leaves others, since flying machines don't make themselves.

I consider myself a serious open minded "normally thinking" person, and I still find that the evidence available (including my own direct experience) does not convicne me in the ET hypothesis.

There are many other possibilities! There is the possibility of entities which are not from other planets, but are simply of more dimension than our own, or entities of a parallell reality, or of the future (time travelers) or A potential future, or entities of the collective subconscious, or an illusion, false memories, placed to mask some sort of experimentation being done by humans (on humans), or an unexpected side effect of some new technology being tested out, or some other sort of explanation that we just have not the knowledge to even imagine!

THAT is being "open minded".

Originally posted by newcovenant

Yada, yada, yada.....There are people who deal with these things everyday and they can tell the difference between an actual event and a film that might be being made in the area. The UFO phenomena is like many others. If you are not interested or a skeptic you will not do as thorough an investigation into the subject as someone who for one reason or another, perhaps they saw something for themselves, might do. If you study enough accounts of UFO's you will come across the convincing witness's, and evidence and the 4000....

You've studied 4,000 cases and came to the conclusion that there's no other answer than "otherworldly, intelligently driven spacecraft"? Or did you just read what other people have said? Show me 1 good example of that overwhelming evidence. That shoud be a simple request seeing as you claim you've studied 4,000+ cases

....or so cases that can be nothing but otherworldly, intelligently driven spacecraft and you might finally come to that conclusion yourself. If you haven't reached that point yet - you have not studied the phenomena as thoroughly as some of us.

That's incorrect. J Allen Hynek for example, studied many cases and as I mentioned in another thread, he didn't support an "otherworldly, intelligently driven spacecraft" conclusion. He was far more qualified than you or anyone on this board yet didn't subscribe to the ETH.

You need to substantiate the claims you make rather than just posting off the top of your head.

Originally posted by newcovenant
Or hasn't studied enough to come across the case or cases that will convince him or her this is something real and happening on earth unbeknownst to many...you for example.

Never assume you know what other people think or know, that's the best way of failing.

I think there is no other possible explanation sometimes because the capabilities displayed are beyond us or ours. Clearly. Eliminating human beings...that leaves others, since flying machines don't make themselves.

So, you think that there are only human beings and extraterrestrials, nothing more can explain those events?

Originally posted by newcovenant
There are skeptics who believe in ET's & UFOs and absolutely you are correct. They investigate more than "believers." There are skeptics who don't believe in UFO's at all and I am not sure what they do. I don't think it's investigate UFO's though.

A real sceptic is the one that investigates regardless of his/her beliefs, because they know that believing in something is just a personal thing, it may or may not be related to reality.

reply to post by ArMaP


Thats right, ArMaP- a real skeptic should just investigate regardless of their personal beliefs. They should research with a totally open mind, without preconceptions or bias, in a scientific manner. Each new case should be addressed with a fresh and open mind, and on its own merits.

As soon as personal 'beliefs' enter an investigation, you have crossed the line into de-bunker or believer

However, thats not what this thread title suggests, and unfortunately, is an opposite of these ideals.

Again, the shirike starts a thread, and leaves it when
the going gets too tough for him. How many times
is he going to do this? Why does he do this?

He likes to put himself on the same boat as the decent
skeptics on here. I think this makes him feel me intelligent
in his make believe internet world. But, its obvious, that even
though he moans about believers beliefs, his beliefs are just
the same.

Welcome to the new age religon/cult of the shrike type debunkers.
The type of people that see believers as people who are as bad as
hitler, saddam, or any other evil person. A person who seems to live
only to do shat he does.

Originally posted by Bluesma

Originally posted by newcovenant


Or hasn't studied enough to come across the case or cases that will convince him or her this is something real and happening on earth unbeknownst to many...you for example.

I was a skeptic as many people start out but after awhile and serious open minded investigation most "normally thinking" people become convinced. Even if you were not witness to an event yourself if you study the cases available you will find many without human explanation. I think there is no other possible explanation sometimes because the capabilities displayed are beyond us or ours. Clearly. Eliminating human beings...that leaves others, since flying machines don't make themselves.

I consider myself a serious open minded "normally thinking" person, and I still find that the evidence available (including my own direct experience) does not convicne me in the ET hypothesis.

There are many other possibilities! There is the possibility of entities which are not from other planets, but are simply of more dimension than our own, or entities of a parallell reality, or of the future (time travelers) or A potential future, or entities of the collective subconscious, or an illusion, false memories, placed to mask some sort of experimentation being done by humans (on humans), or an unexpected side effect of some new technology being tested out, or some other sort of explanation that we just have not the knowledge to even imagine!

THAT is being "open minded".

No...it isn't. You are being creative.

Discounting the possibility of life on other planets is not only fool hardy I think it is closed minded.