ALIENS & UFOS Discussion Policy Not Based On Evidence But On Hearsay

Originally posted by newcovenant

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by IamAbeliever
reply to post by The Shrike

 

All that exist are unprobable hearsay, assumptions and speculation. No one has ever produced solid evidence of an encounter. In fact, those that have claimed encounters have usually done so to make a buck off the gullible.

Sounds to me like you're describing religion and every television evangelist that has ever lived.

Just sayin'.

edit on 25-11-2012 by IamAbeliever because: (no reason given)

Ah, that old chestnut, often used on this forum, but never in a real context. Religion is faith based - if you have proof then there would be no need for faith and therefore no religion. You may not like that, and it seems hard for some people to grasp, but that's the case. Stating a belief that there is high probability of lifeon other planets is a great theory, and most on here would be open to that. Stating that you regularly receive visitations from Extra Terristrials without any supporting evidence is a different matter entirely.

LOL Right! This would be like if there were photographs, of Christ and he kept "returning" and it was repeatedly caught on film and witnessed by millions alive today to tell about it. Not exactly a parallel comparison.

Is that supposed to make sense? Why would there be photographs of Christ? You mean if there was a second coming? Well, I guess that would be when Christians turned to people who laugh at them and say "I told you so", but here's the difference and I'll say it again - empirical proof is not required for a faith system, belief in Extra Terrestrials visiting Earth should not be a faith system and for all your claims, that empirical proof has never been confirmed - just enough to convince people who already 'believed'.

reply to post by something wicked


fair enough, ill change it, people knew that the sphyx was made the same time as the pyramids, until further discovery. they now now it was made before the pyramids. does that work?

Originally posted by The Shrike
At the top of each thread on the ALIENS & UFOS forum you see the following:

Aliens and UFOs: This forum is dedicated to the discussion of historic and contemporary events related to extraterrestrial encounters, UFO sightings, and speculation about related subjects. Discussion topics and follow-up responses in this forum will likely tend to lean in favor of the existence of extraterrestrials and the related conspiracies, scandals, and cover-ups. Members who would seek to refute such theories should be mindful of our tradition of supporting the examination of the extraterrestrial phenomenon on the related conspiracy theories, cover-ups, and scandals. Replies that make fun or otherwise ridicule and demean those posting honest experiences and/or questions will be removed. Members who post such responses repeatedly will be banned.

I have a problem with the wording and the meaning behind them. There are no reliable "historic and contemporary events" related to "extraterrestrial encounters". All that exist are unprobable hearsay, assumptions and speculation. No one has ever produced solid evidence of an encounter.

So is religion. And yet billions are labeled as christians, muslims, hindus, budists etc. What does that say?

And why does ATS support the examination of the extraterrestrial non-existent "phenomenom"? How can ATS prove that those claiming "honest experiences" actually had those experiences? Will anyone at ATS HQ come on here and explain to us why they are so pro-extraterrestrial that those claiming such experiences cannot be taken to task but should be treated with kid gloves?

Why not? The same support that Religion Forum gets, should be given to any other forum of this board. Not for anything is called a Conspiracy Forum. How can ATS prove the existence of God and them who claimed to have had divine experiences? Don't you think is kinda vicious circle?

Originally posted by DocHolidaze
reply to post by something wicked

 

fair enough, ill change it, people knew that the sphyx was made the same time as the pyramids, until further discovery. they now now it was made before the pyramids. does that work?

Not really, I don't think many people stop and think if they were built at the same time or not, and why do you think they should? If you think that is in the same league as a flat earth then that is a little weird.

reply to post by something wicked


so since your in the trolling mood ill give u another one to bite at, the theroy the the sun revolved around the earth that was believed, was proven wrong after discovery of the truth, im glad whomever looked into it with had an open mind and found the truth.

I don't have a problem with UFOs 'cause I've had my solid sightings, but the continued belief that they are extraterrestrial without any evidence gets my goat. Again it's the believers who flood the forum with their assumptions

reply to post by The Shrike

I know every time i mention a UFO my close friend looks at me as if i should be locked up as i have seen loads of UFOs
and i can say with out a doubt i have never seen an alien (wish i had thou)
i thought you were anti ufo so i am sorry for any insults i have put your way


i should add that i do believe in ETs and who knows if they have or have not visited earth?

Originally posted by DocHolidaze
reply to post by something wicked

 

so since your in the trolling mood ill give u another one to bite at, the theroy the the sun revolved around the earth that was believed, was proven wrong after discovery of the truth, im glad whomever looked into it with had an open mind and found the truth.

Why do you think I'm in the trolling mood? Anyway, I'll grant you that one, but at the same time, the argument works both ways. Some people had a belief and it turned out to be wrong - Believe in almost constant visitation from ET visitors? No proof, maybe there never will be. Believe that somewhere out there life exists (maybe or maybe not capable of travelling to other planets, maybe incapable of anything except breathing)? Who knows? Probably.

Originally posted by The Shrike
I have a problem with the wording and the meaning behind them.............

Although I admire your quest for the truth, the disclaimer itself is sound. The terms extraterrestrials and UFOs, are always separated via words such as: "and", or a comma. Basically, the legalese here is just asking you to respect others. Indeed, we can't take others' words at face value. However, from reading your post, you and I have both seen some craziness. Could either of us prove it? Probably not. Even if you uploaded a legitimate video, there would be 10 000 people disrespecting you, claiming CGI.

I like the fact that this forum has a code of ethical conduct. Look at the other top alternative site: that abomination has become a bucket of hatred. So much so, that legitimate scientific research is met with disdain.

If a post is BS, move on. Or, simply provide the data that disproves it and move on. You can't get censored for that.

reply to post by The Shrike


Here are 10 examples of cases with either multiple witness to extraordinary claims or trained observers in the Military, Air force, CIA, defense and space program. Evidences includes actual film footage that has proved genuine, physical evidence such as burn marks and radiation levels at the scene, radar evidence and multiple expert witness from different vantage points. This video discusses these 4 incidents.... among the 10 separate unexplained and otherworldly "smoking guns" discussed in this feature film..

1. Nuremberg April 14th 1561
2. May 11, 1950 Farmer Trent and McMinnville
3. Sept 19, 1976 Tehran Iran 2 US Jets scrambled
4. Radar Station Utah Duncanville RB47

Originally posted by The Shrike
But some members, nay, most of them, are so sold on their beliefs that if an opposing POV is presented they lose their cool and behave inappropriately and the Mods rarely appear to calm the disgruntled believers' passion for verbal abuse.

As you can see by my mini profile to the left of this post, I have been a member of ATS since 2004 (one year after my first visit), so I know what you mean, specially because, being a sceptic, I am frequently accused of almost everything.

As this forum is supposed to be a place where people can discuss the UFO and/or Alien cases they want, they must feel comfortable enough for that, as if they feel threatened in some way they will stop appearing and things get boring.

But that doesn't mean that they can act like they want and ignore the Terms and Conditions of Use they agreed on when they signed, so, whenever you see one of those situations send a complaint so the staff can act accordingly (although that doesn't mean according to what you want ).

PS: those weren't two cents, it was just one, but it was an Euro cent.

Originally posted by nightmare_david
Seriously? Admins/mods of ATS. You really can't see the true intention of every single thread he creates? Google around and look at how many forums and blogs this guy does this on. It's disturbing.

As long as he behaves according to the ATS Terms and Conditions of Use, he can do what he wants in other forums.

And no, I don't need to Google around, I know him (as an ATS member) for several years.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by nightmare_david

 

Seriously? Admins/mods of ATS. You really can't see the true intention of every single thread he creates? Google around and look at how many forums and blogs this guy does this on. It's disturbing.

The point I was trying to make is that everyone is welcome to post threads in this forum as long as they are generally polite and aren't attempting to attack or deceive the other members.

Extreme-skeptics are as welcome as extreme-believers although the rest of us take a more balanced approach.

reply to post by The Shrike

 

I don't see you nor any other Mods getting involved when your beloved believers think it's alright to fling hatred, insults, and disrespect on those that do not agree with their distorted beliefs.

Please read the above comments - it is not about favouritism; it is about expressing your views without hostility. For example, read my post to you and compare it with yours to me? I attacked your *argument* and, in return, you've attacked half a dozen targets including me. Is that the fault of ATS or should you be looking a little closer to home?

All the best, I generally enjoy reading your posts.

While my thread is about criticizing ATS ALIENS & UFOS forum's policy for promoting questionable thinking by allowing believers wide berth in filling this forum with threads containing questionable claims because it is a liberal forum and we skeptics/non-believers are asked to walk on eggshells when replying to their comments, what I also want to point out to the mods and management that individuals such as nightmare_david are allowed to ignore commenting on the threads' topics and behave as he has in his comments such as

You once posted images of an alleged UFO sighting you had, yes? To you that was hard evidence, yet you'll turn around and quickly call others liars or fools if they post images of a UFO sighting they had. Why? Are you really soo full of yourself that you can't except anything else as real unless it comes directly from you?

This thread proves beyond a shadow of a doubt how full of yourself you really are. You can't stand the fact that people call you out on your obvious BS left and right, so you want the rules changed so you can do even more of what you constantly do already. That's clearly all this thread is about. More attention seeking from you by creating a thread you know will pull in the ones you constantly talk down to so you can get in the usual name calling. Then when they turn it around on you, you have the nerve to whine about it as if you're innocent of never doing it? Really?

Seriously? Admins/mods of ATS. You really can't see the true intention of every single thread he creates? Google around and look at how many forums and blogs this guy does this on. It's disturbing.

That is an outright attack and yet I don't see any mods monitoring such behavior and calling them on the carpet. Why should I have to put up with this kind of crap from someone that is mentally-disturbed and shouldn't be allowed to be a member? I challenged him to provide a source where I said what he claims 'cause he shouldn't be allowed to spew venom and allegations. He'll never reply because he's never going to find where I did what he claims I did.

But the mods ignore this kind of reply and take us skeptics to task for asking believers to dig deeper and come up with evidence instead of always just posting unsubstantiated beliefs.

I guess I'm just wasting my time being a member. Perhaps, to the joy of many, I'll just simply walk away and let Jim Oberg, Druscilla, Ectoplasm8, and others deal with the gullible believers.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by The Shrike

 

There are truckloads of evidence in the form of physical, chemical, trace evidence, scientific data and radar readings. There are many untampered with, irrefutable photographs. There are hundreds of encounters that are not considered hear say when multiple credible witness describe the same event. Corroborating evidence as well as expert witness testimony has also been introduced in more cases than I have time to mention. Your basic premise is inaccurate which voids this particular argument and thread, which isn't really an argument, but an opinion. It is simply denial without proof or evidence to support it.

edit on 26-11-2012 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)

You don't include any links or sources for all of those truckloads, etc., which sound as if you are addressing UFOs which I am not. This thread is about allowing nothing but hearsay connected with alien reports.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by The Shrike

 

And what do you mean by "finding the truth"? What truth? About what? From whom? Who decides what is truth? Evidence is truth.

Again...sadly a false premise. There can be truth without evidence. Because you do not know something does not negate it's relative truth. The truth is WHAT IS - "and evidence" would be comprised of the tangible, verbal and historic details we have to support it's (what ever particular truth you are discussing) existence.

Oh, come on, enough with the philosophy. Show me one shred of evidence for the reality of aliens. Not tales that cannot be substantiated. I don't believe therefore I require evidence. I don't need evidence for UFOs for it's a given that they are real. I'm talking about alleged aliens.

Originally posted by DocHolidaze
reply to post by The Shrike

 

No one knew the world was flat

No one knows if the government and/or other government funded agencys are completely innocent of covering up info for there own benefit. can you provide solid proof that the government and connected agencys are 100% transparent, and are always 100 percent honest in there statements and actions? please enlighten me. if you cant than the possibility for goverment cover ups are real, therefore must be taken into consideration when discussing anything the goverment is involved in. but im sure you already know all this, you work/worked for the gov, right?

This forum is called ALIENS & UFOS, right? I don't accept unfounded claims by the Average Joe that they know anything about government cover-ups. Those are assumptions. Of course there are intra-agency cover-ups but I don't accept that they are connected with aliens or even UFOs.

Yes, I worked for the government: United States Air Force, 1955-59.

I'm baffled by people that so readily accept a claim, crop circles for example, based mainly on the words of others or so-called "experts". To me, it shows an incredible naivety that forgoes any simple common sense. Most of the posts regarding UFOs do away with basic common sense in favor of a belief. A belief which is no comparison to a fact. I speak in facts, yet so many here speak with such conviction of their belief, as if it is a fact. I joined mainly to debate people about this. I've had run-ins with some rude responses or people that respond with nonsensical replies. I'll admit, when I first joined I'd used a few sarcastic demeaning terms but stopped soon after it was pointed out, understanding it was the wrong approach. However, I do find myself drawn back into that mindset by many of the responses to what I say.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by The Shrike

 

Here are 10 examples of cases with either multiple witness to extraordinary claims or trained observers in the Military, Air force, CIA, defense and space program. Evidences includes actual film footage that has proved genuine, physical evidence such as burn marks and radiation levels at the scene, radar evidence and multiple expert witness from different vantage points......

Video, burned ground, radiation levels in no way prove that whatever was seen was piloted by a superior alien species from another world. This is the perfect example of "proof" on the level of a believer.

Originally posted by Thunda

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by The Shrike

 

There are truckloads of evidence in the form of physical, chemical, trace evidence, scientific data and radar readings. There are many untampered with, irrefutable photographs. There are hundreds of encounters that are not considered hear say when multiple credible witness describe the same event. Corroborating evidence as well as expert witness testimony has also been introduced in more cases than I have time to mention. Your basic premise is inaccurate which voids this particular argument and thread, which isn't really an argument, but an opinion. It is simply denial without proof or evidence to support it.

edit on 26-11-2012 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)

Ah, newcovenant, you beat me to it. Of course there is lots of solid, physical evidence outside 'hearsay', but Im sure The Shrike a) wont accept that and b) will call us all zombified UFO cult 'believers' for daring to bring it up.

I really worry about your health, Shrike, and Im being totally serious here. Only last week you started a thread claiming to "finally put Roswell to bed", and in it, similar to this one, you railed against UFO 'believers', claimed there was 'no evidence' other than hearsay, told us we were all deranged for falling for the 'hacks' trying to make a quick buck, and when anyone disagreed with you, you came back with insults and genuinely incoherant ramblings, finally leaving the thread when you realised your position.

Now here you are a week later, and you have another problem- "There are no reliable "historic and contemporary events" related to "extraterrestrial encounters". All that exist are unprobable hearsay, assumptions and speculation." you proclaim- well Im sorry, but that is an assumption in itself, and if you had done your homework, you would know it is an incorrect one.

Why are you doing this? If you object so much to the UFO forum then, heres an idea, dont come here? Or is it that you like the attention, or you are by nature argumentative and enjoy playing 'devils advocate'?

Just as a start for your research (which Im sure you will be doing, in order to qualify your sweeping statements), can I direct you to the Colares UFO flap, investigated by, amongst others, the Brazilian Air Force, containing many physical traces, photographs, sightings by the Air Force research team- there are many, many more examples, but this one should give you enough information so you can see it isnt just all 'hearsay' as you claim.

I await your flaming your response.......

Don't worry about my health which for a 74-year-old is better than some young'uns. However, if I was you I'd seek help because you make unsubstantiated comments requiring a mental care. Above, amongst your non-sensical ramblings you say "you railed against UFO 'believers', claimed there was 'no evidence' other than hearsay," That's a total lie and you can't find it to quote it here. That thread was about the alleged Roswell UFO crash that never happened. I didn't rally against UFO believers because if people want to believe UFOs are this or that I don't give a flying .... I rally against believers in aliens who allow their beliefs to override common sense. When you criticize me as I'm criticizing you make sure you can back it up. I backed it up by providing your words which don't make sense. And don't tell me not to come here, you are overstepping your membership priveleges.

reply to post by The Shrike
As long as you insist on describing those you disagree with as 'mentally-disturbed,' 'gullible' and holding 'distorted beliefs,' you're liable to receive similar responses. That's not an 'ATS-thing,' it's just the way people are; you cannot expect to be rude to others without them being rude back...and vice versa.

If ArMap doesn't object, I'd like to use him as an example. He's a sceptic and manages to disagree with people every day without insulting the members and without attracting a lot of negative comment.

In contrast, you are asking for the right to insult others in any way you see fit as long as it falls short of profanity. In essence, you are asking for something like a 'Debunker's Charter' whereby you are allowed to attack other members and they aren't allowed to answer back. It's an irrational concept and won't be condoned.

I can't be clearer than I've already been in this thread.

reply to post by The Shrike

Of course there are intra-agency cover-ups but I don't accept that they are connected with aliens or even UFOs.

so what ur saying is you know there are coverups, but in this certain category there is no chance of a cover up, it seems your oldman ways is hindering your judgment. i hope that you being here and reading this response to your selective judgment will open ur eyes. there is a reason we are all here now questioning what is really going on, and it seems to me that you enjoy fighting anything that doesn't fit within YOUR realm of possibility. just remember, please, that discovery will not end till no living being lives on this world. there is a ridiculous number of beings here and now and we all want the same thing, truth. lies hinder, and truth sets us free

Originally posted by The Shrike
That is an outright attack and yet I don't see any mods monitoring such behavior and calling them on the carpet.

Do you know why I did nothing about that post? Because I don't think that saying to someone "you are full of yourself" is as bad as saying that they are "mentally-disturbed". While I see the second as a possible insult I don't see the first as such, but as that's my personal opinion, I, once more, suggest that you file a complaint whenever you find posts that you think are attacking either you or some other member, as the complaints are posted on a staff-only forum where all can look at them and discuss what to do.

I challenged him to provide a source where I said what he claims 'cause he shouldn't be allowed to spew venom and allegations. He'll never reply because he's never going to find where I did what he claims I did.

Then what more do you want? You asked something and you were ignored. Have some faith on the intelligence of other members to see who is promoting and allowing the topics to be discussed and who are blocking the discussion.

But the mods ignore this kind of reply and take us skeptics to task for asking believers to dig deeper and come up with evidence instead of always just posting unsubstantiated beliefs.

As a mod and a sceptic, I think sceptics have the obligation to try to show in what their opinions are based, if we want to get closer to the truth, regardless of being ignored or insulted by other members. Our actions reflect on how what we say is received by those who read our posts, so I always think that a neutral post is always better than an insulting post.

I guess I'm just wasting my time being a member. Perhaps, to the joy of many, I'll just simply walk away and let Jim Oberg, Druscilla, Ectoplasm8, and others deal with the gullible believers.

Or you can learn with some of them how to answer without attacking the poster.