PC gone too far? Halloween disrespectful to Witches!!!

But my question is this: What is a witch? What qualities do witches possess that separate them from the rest of us? If a witch is a witch, it is only because they decide to tell others that they are. One who is not a witch could not observe any identifiable trait that would obviously make them a witch. This is because witches are no different from those who are not witches, other than a witch will be the first one to tell you she is.

What can you do that I can't? What connection do you have with which unseen, supernatural force, and what does this connection allow you to do that is more than the rest of us can do?

Do you cast spells? If so, then what have been the real results of these spells.

Do you insist that there are real results? Then cast a spell on me, tell me what it will do to me, and if it happens, then I will believe in a witch. This simply will not, and cannot happen.

I believe in Wiccans. I believe in Wiccans just as much as I do Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etcetera. I believe in them because they exist. But they only exist because they are simply groups of people that maintain a certain set of beliefs, and a lifestyle guided by them. These beliefs are what sets them apart from each other.

If a witch exists, it is just a person that maintains a set of beliefs, which makes you no different from me or anyone else.

@ DeltaChaos

For the simple fact of format of speech, I'll let someone else take your questions, I don't have the capabillity of good form of speech to answer your questions to the point you get what you desire. I wish the wife were home, she's good at that.

I will, however, answer one. About casting a spell on you.
If your are speaking of casting a spell on you for something bad to happen - never, I simply will not/would not do that EVER. To cast ill-givings on another is not only wrong as just a PERSON, but to a Witch (as some would lable, a white Witch) it is a means to bring harm back to myself. That is not to say the same thing would happen to me, or that it would even happen to me directly as may caus harm to someone I love, which is harm to me in end.

I would/and to, however, take to ritual say if someone (you) is very ill, I will cast for their good health, that you would once again be of sound body. Any casting that would benefit another - I will take to.

Bright Blessings

Misfit

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
I would invite any witch to go ahead and curse me if they felt offended by my lack of concern for their lifestyle or beliefs.

You won't get any takers, no matter how offensive you get. The action you describe is against our religion.

Originally posted by Misfit
For the simple fact of format of speech, I'll let someone else take your questions, I don't have the capabillity of good form of speech to answer your questions to the point you get what you desire. I wish the wife were home, she's good at that.

I think you write very well. I don't want anyone to feel that they have to write like I do, I'm just an old english major, who is obsessive/compulsive with a perfectionist predicament. This is all just like practice to me.

I understand everything you write here, and more than that, I think its good.

I will, however, answer one. About casting a spell on you.
If your are speaking of casting a spell on you for something bad to happen - never, I simply will not/would not do that EVER. To cast ill-givings on another is not only wrong as just a PERSON, but to a Witch (as some would lable, a white Witch) it is a means to bring harm back to myself. That is not to say the same thing would happen to me, or that it would even happen to me directly as may caus harm to someone I love, which is harm to me in end.



I would/and to, however, take to ritual say if someone (you) is very ill, I will cast for their good health, that you would once again be of sound body. Any casting that would benefit another - I will take to..

I guess more specifically, I just don't believe in magic of any kind. I don't believe in magic. I don't believe in magic, because if anyone could really do the things that are described, like the ones above, we'd be hearing about it all the time.

I also don't believe in psychokinetic abilities such as ESP, premonition, telekinesis either, because if these abilities were real, they we would have seen people do it. No one has ever been recorded and observed actually doing these things. If the abilities were real, they would be available to all with the same level talent and practice. They are not.

I don't believe in astrology, palm reading, or tarot, and other similar things for the same reasons. The results have never been recorded as being consistently true. If these methods were really did what they propose, then why wouldn't everyone be using them?

Kings used to employ astrologists to predict weather cycles, gain information on their enemies, know whether or not the queen was screwing around on him, all sorts of things. World leaders no longer use astrologists. Why? Either because they were always wrong, or because their premonitions were so vague and arbitrary that they were useless as usable information.

I'm not a show-me person through and through, I do believe beyond doubt that aliens exist and have or currently are visiting Earth, even though I've never seen one. I do believe our government is lying to us and that there is much more to the world than what we see. But I don't have proof.

I could be wrong, but it just seems that if magics and mental powers existed, they would exist across the entire spectrum of the populous, and would be visible for all to see because there would be no control of the information. That information doesn't exist, so then the stories are untrue.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
But my question is this: What is a witch? What qualities do witches possess that separate them from the rest of us?

(Oh dear, kiddies... yes, she's going for Yet Another ANTHROPOLOGY 101 LECTURE! RUN!!!!)

*ahem*

It's actually a good question.

In general, a "witch" is someone who practices modification of reality and social control through processes that are called "magical" by society (and may involve meditation, drugs, chanting, drumming, among other things) www.shadowdrake.com...

For purposes of discussion, that weak definition is a good springboard. There are several major divisions of "witch."


* Native American (Indian) "medicine men/shamans": Sometimes misidentified as witches. They do have magical and spiritual practices and ethnobotannical practices and voluntary trance and many modern witches have borrowed from their practices (and borrowed badly, I should add.)

* Siberian shamanism - not witchcraft, though again all of the Native American practices are found here, as is totemism. Also heavily borrowed (incorrectly) by modern witches.

* Modern Witchcraft traditions: Started in the early 1900's, outgrowth of Theosophy, Madame Blatavinksy, OTO, Golden Dawn, Israel Regardie and followed up in the 1960's by the people who started the modern Witchcraft Revival: the Frosts, Gerald Gardener, Sybil Leek, Margaret Murray. They practice everything the Satanists do EXCEPT worshipping the anti-God, necromancy, and demon-summoning. Other material may include other worldwide traditions, such as those from ancient Greece (Dianic Witchcraft), Italy (Strega), the British Isles (Celtic Reconstructionists), ancient Egyptian (Khemetics.)

* Gypsy magic: All of the above, borrowed and mixed and run as a business. Although Europeans liked to pretend that they were above "magic" they were not above going to a gypsy to cast a spell on someone.

* Continental African traditions: generally tribal rituals and magic, sometimes uses human body parts, sometimes for destructive purposes, practices have carried over into the Evangelical churches where the Judaeo-Christian deity is treated like an African tribal deity and is cajoled and bribed and sacrificed to.

* Modern Latin American traditions: Bruja/Brujero - a form of "sorcery" made up of all of the above. Like Continental African traidtioins, it also blends in the Judaeo-Christian deity and saints. No human sacrifice, though parts of corpses may be used and graveyard dust may be used.

* Modern Voodoo (Vaudon and Santaria) traditions: More of a blend between the African and Latin American traditions.

* Modern Satanism: Outgrowth of the old Hellfire Club gang (including Alestair Crowley), though there have always been Satanists ever since the Church announced there was an Evil Power that was continually struggling with the Good Power. Modern Satanism's founder is Antoine LaVey. They practice "all of the above" plus traditions taken from alchemy and high magic (the latter, rather badly), necromancy, and demon-summoning (which were forms of Christian magic in the 1300-s-1700's)

If a witch is a witch, it is only because they decide to tell others that they are.

That's not true. All the above traditions require some study and knowledge.

One who is not a witch could not observe any identifiable trait that would obviously make them a witch. This is because witches are no different from those who are not witches, other than a witch will be the first one to tell you she is.

No external difference, no. But in mindset and in what we do, yes.

What can you do that I can't? What connection do you have with which unseen, supernatural force, and what does this connection allow you to do that is more than the rest of us can do?

Big question and one that I'm not in the mood to write a long essay about. But yes, I can do things (because I'm a witch) that most of you can't, including breaking a run of bad luck/misfortune on the spot.

Do you cast spells? If so, then what have been the real results of these spells.

Yes. And "generally I achieve the result I was seeking."

Do you insist that there are real results? Then cast a spell on me, tell me what it will do to me, and if it happens, then I will believe in a witch. This simply will not, and cannot happen.

Yes.
No... that's against my religion ("An thou harm none..." )
We don't care if you believe or not. We aren't here to convert anyone. Our religion gives us a connection to the Other Side that we enjoy. We don't care whether you believe or whether you don't believe.

I believe in Wiccans. I believe in Wiccans just as much as I do Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etcetera. I believe in them because they exist. But they only exist because they are simply groups of people that maintain a certain set of beliefs, and a lifestyle guided by them. These beliefs are what sets them apart from each other.

Nicely put, actually.

If a witch exists, it is just a person that maintains a set of beliefs, which makes you no different from me or anyone else.

And that, however, is not true. There are many forms of witchcraft.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
I think you write very well. I don't want anyone to feel that they have to write like I do, I'm just an old english major, who is obsessive/compulsive with a perfectionist predicament. This is all just like practice to me.

I understand everything you write here, and more than that, I think its good.

Thanx for the kind words.
Too many times I do not get the words out right, and sometimes become confuggled myself in what I say, lol.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
I guess more specifically, I just don't believe in magic of any kind. I don't believe in magic. I don't believe in magic, because if anyone could really do the things that are described, like the ones above, we'd be hearing about it all the time.

The information of Magik is everywhere, one only has to look and ask (as you are now).
You don't "hear aboutit" simply because we don't go around professing it, not trying to "convert" anyone to it, that is simply not our way; one has to have the honest disire for this life, just as a Christian had to have the initial honest desire to become such.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
I don't believe in astrology, palm reading, or tarot...........If these methods were really did what they propose, then why wouldn't everyone be using them?

Other religions/ways of life have just as well never been proven, and not eveyone uses the same. I don't believe that one can keepo 'sinning', go see the man in the cubical, cross my chest 3 times and all be better go out and do the same damn thing again. Not everyone does that either.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
.......... I do believe beyond doubt that aliens exist and have or currently are visiting Earth, even though I've never seen one............... But I don't have proof.

You've never seen an alien yet you believe in them.
You've never seen magikal results, yet you disbelieve in it.
Hmmm.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
I could be wrong, but it just seems that if magics and mental powers existed, they would exist across the entire spectrum of the populous, and would be visible for all to see because there would be no control of the information. That information doesn't exist, so then the stories are untrue.

Paragraph #2.

Jeez, looks like I went and gave [my form] answers anyway, heh.

Msifit

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
I guess more specifically, I just don't believe in magic of any kind. I don't believe in magic. I don't believe in magic, because if anyone could really do the things that are described, like the ones above, we'd be hearing about it all the time.

Real witchcraft is akin to Terry Pratchett's "Head-ology" (as described in the Discworld series.) There IS a book or two that talks about how it works and basically you're programming your Id to motivate your Superconscious and produce results for you (when you change your internal reality, your changed behavior changes the external reality.)

I also don't believe in psychokinetic abilities such as ESP, premonition, telekinesis either, because if these abilities were real, they we would have seen people do it. No one has ever been recorded and observed actually doing these things. If the abilities were real, they would be available to all with the same level talent and practice. They are not.

Studies are ambiguous. But I disagree with the last... presumanbly we all have artistic and musical abilities but I can assure you that they're not available to all with the same level talent and practice.

I don't believe in astrology, palm reading, or tarot, and other similar things for the same reasons. The results have never been recorded as being consistently true. If these methods were really did what they propose, then why wouldn't everyone be using them?[/qupte]
Because (as any diviner can tell you) they're actually very hard to learn. What you're doing is creating a consensual reality with the client and offering archetypes as a means of reframing their problems and situations.

...except that (which is the anthropological explaination) is too much of a mouthfull and most don't know what to do with/about it.

I don't find the idea of witchcraft anymore nonsensical than praying to Jesus, Mary, Allah, Buddah, etc. It's all the same thing to me with different characters inserted by belief.

Originally posted by Der Kapitan
I don't find the idea of witchcraft anymore nonsensical than praying to Jesus, Mary, Allah, Buddah, etc. It's all the same thing to me with different characters inserted by belief.

That's akin to --- in the last scene of the movie "Mysts Of Avalon", when Morgaine is speeking of how Goddess has left, but then she looks up and see's a statue of the Holy Mother (Mary? I'm not up on Catholocism) and says that perhaps Goddess has not left, but just changed.

Misfit

How about all of you writing a letter to the school and telling them that you are offended that they are using your religion as a way to cancel the halloween festivites? Or send e-mails to the local news station!!!

Jemison

Originally posted by Byrd
(when you change your internal reality, your changed behavior changes the external reality.)

What this describes is an 'attitude adjustment'. If you change your internal reality, of course you change your behavior. And you behavior, in turn, changes you external reality. But no matter how much one changes their internal reality, they cannot directly effect the external reality of someone else.

For example, you can imagine someone tripping and falling, and try to project that into external reality, but it's missing the link that makes the internal the external. And that is the behavior. The only way to effect someone elses tripping and falling is to stick you foot out in front of them.

Studies are ambiguous. But I disagree with the last... presumanbly we all have artistic and musical abilities but I can assure you that they're not available to all with the same level talent and practice.

Right, that's what I meant. Not everyone would have the same level of talent or amount of practice. Just as in any other art form.

It may require talent to the level of gift, but someone has to have it somewhere. Where are they? And with the possibilities that these abilities represent, wouldn't there be a lot of people trying to achieve them? Have you or has anyone you've known actually achieved them?

I've know a LOT of people who said they were gifted in these ways, yet they have never been able to produce results. Are they lying? To me? To themsleves? Magic is a self-entertaining delusion and nothing more.

Because (as any diviner can tell you) they're actually very hard to learn. What you're doing is creating a consensual reality with the client and offering archetypes as a means of reframing their problems and situations.

This is the most accurate and concise description of the power of suggestion that I've ever read. Creating a reality that someone would agree with is not a problem. Salesmen do it for a living, but there's no magic in it. Advertisements on television create a consensual reality with their potential markets. And it works because people buy it. They buy the truck, the diet, the movie, whatever.

When a psychic weaves a vague web of possibilites that could be positive, the egoist human psyche will automatically run with it and fill in the holes the way it would like to see them. The power of suggestion is the oldest trick in the book, but it is only a trick we play on ourselves.

The beauty of this is that for some, it works. Just like placebo, which I do believe. I do believe that if you believe something enough, you can effect your own health. I believe we have access to the medicines created by the body and mind to effect the healing process.

I also believe in eastern style energy work. That has produced real results for me many times, but not because I believe it is real, but because it IS real.

How about all of you writing a letter to the school and telling them that you are offended that they are using your religion as a way to cancel the halloween festivites? Or send e-mails to the local news station!!!

Hasn't this happened? I thought some bible thumpers did just that somewhere? It sure is ringing in my head, it was a few years ago.


Misfit-

Yep. kinda' underscores my idea, anyhow.

[edit on 22-10-2004 by Der Kapitan]

Originally posted by Misfit
You've never seen an alien yet you believe in them.
You've never seen magikal results, yet you disbelieve in it.
Hmmm.

Yes I believe in aliens. I believe because of the overwhelming amount of declassified government documentation and testimony from the professional military and otherwise certifyably un-insane.

Suppose all this documentation and testimony were completely contrived. That would be the most carefully planned, perfectly executed, and longest lasting conspiracies ever. For a group of people to fraudulently construct so many documents, corroborate so many stories, with such startling accuracy even though the people with the stories had never met would be impossibly difficult to pull off without getting caught. It would be perfection.

It would be a better conspiracy than the alien cover-up conspiracy itself.

There just doesn't exist this level of recorded data and corroborated testimony on record to substantiate the claim that magic exists. If what you say can be done, some of you should demonstrate it under controlled conditions repeatedly.

Then you could open your own University of Witchcraft and completely legitimize the practice. But this could never happen, because you can't really do anything magical.

My only point is that while you say that there is magic that you can perform, you cannot, or will not demonstrate it for whatever reason. If you can't cast a bad spell because it is against your religion, cast one that your beliefs do allow. I guess your beliefs wouldn't allow you to demonstrate your ability just for the sake of proving the claim, either.

I don't expect to convert, and I don't expect to be converted. I think you don't bother to assimilate people into this way because after you've told them that you have magical abilities, you cannot teach them or show them.

Have either of you read any LaVey?


[edit on 22-10-2004 by DeltaChaos]

We don't convert because we don't have to. Those with an earnest desire to learn come to us. They learn the efficacy of magic by performing it themselves and seeing the results in their own lives. Yes, if someone comes to us with a real need, we will do spellwork on that person's behalf, but "proving" yourself to someone else just for the heck of it is an act of ego, not magic.

Maybe you think you're going to bully one of us into casting on you. It isn't working, and I sincerely doubt it will. If you don't believe in magic, fine, but ridicule isn't going to get you proof from anyone sincere.

This is from my web site....it is not copied, it is not from someone else's page they are my words, from my site. I thought I'd claify that before someone start grumping .....

WHAT DOES IT MEAN
TO BE A WITCH?

I had to add this page to my site because I keep coming across people who tell me they want to be a witch because they want to be able "cast spells" or make someone "love" them or they want to be "special" or "impress" someone. This type of talk upsets me, really bothers my husband (also a witch), and annoys other witches as well!

So what is it "to be a witch"? Well, for starters, it is a way of life, a state of being. It is who and what you are. It is not about making someone love you, running around saying, "I'm a Witch", or trying to prove to people that your something "special". Being a witch is something within you. You breath it, dream it, you live it! To be a witch means in part, that you have taken responsibility for your own life and many of the things that surround that life.

To be a witch, is to be a part of all that surrounds you, of the creatures that you share your world with. It is to be one with all things of nature; the trees, the sky, the earth, the oceans. To feel with them and to understand that you are connected with all things, "as above, so below" all things are tied together within our world. What you do to "it/them" you also do to "yourself/us". To understand and live this...is to be a witch.

To be a witch, is to have respect for all of nature. It is to hear her cry in the storms or her laughter on a warm breeze. It is to understand and feel the unseen world around you. That world that is always there, hidden to those that choose not to see it.

To be a witch is also to understand that we can change the energies around us through the use of our own energies to bring about the desired end result. It is to understand the power of prayer...YES we pray, probably more than most religions. Who do we pry to? Well, that depends on the witch. I personally pray to the "The Lord and Lady" , the mother earth and our father who is in the heavens, for there is both male and female.

In being a Witch, we acknowledge there or other beings, we do not worship any entity as superior, and though we may recognize the existence of other entities , we believe in the equality of all beings in the Universe, seeing them as different, separate, but never superior or inferior. We may call the Goddess and the God as representatives of the creative force of the Universe, but will usually call on other spirits as well, each being seen as a separate and equal entity. We believe there is a Spirit World or Other World where these other entities reside. Most do not see this as actually separate from this world, but rather a part of it that is usually unseen. Thus, the spirits who are contacted during ritual are already there but may be conjured or evoked to facilitate communication.

WHAT IT DOES NOT MEAN
TO BE A WITCH

Being a witch does not mean that we are special, on the contrary, we are like everyone else, We get married, have children, wreck the car, have disagreements, get depressed, get fired, have insecurities, argue with the neighbors, love our families, and adore our pets. In other words we have all the same ups and downs that anyone else does. The difference is, we understand the laws of the universe that throw these happenings upon us, we understand the laws of cause and effect.

We do not sacrifice anything, human or animal. We do not worship a devil or Satan. We do however, understand that the universe is and has to be both negative and positive, male and female in order for it to flow at an even keel!

We do not get angry and cast spells or hexes on others due to the fact the we practice responsibility, and ethics, and while the "Rule of Three" is a "Wiccan" rule, most Witches do believe in the old adage, "What goes Around, Comes Around".

My son goes to school in the Puyallup school district.

There are a lot of very upset people in the area because of this. What the real issue is boils down to a high ups personal beliefs that Halloween is evil. They they are dissiminating it into PC spin so the Christians don't come under attack.

His mother is going to the school board meeting. I'll post anything that is noteworthy.

Originally posted by thirddensity
What the real issue is boils down to a high ups personal beliefs that Halloween is evil. T

Exactly as I thought and said in a post ealier in this thread....you can smell it no matter how far away it is!

Originally posted by thirddensity
My son goes to school in the Puyallup school district.

There are a lot of very upset people in the area because of this. What the real issue is boils down to a high ups personal beliefs that Halloween is evil. They they are dissiminating it into PC spin so the Christians don't come under attack.

His mother is going to the school board meeting. I'll post anything that is noteworthy.

When's the meeting -- and is there someplace we could send emails saying that we think it's silly and it's far more offensive to us to have our favorite holiday shut down?

thirddensity thankyou for bringing this thread back to what it was, which is what this post was going to be.
It surely got cast into a negative aspect, I was starting to feel like a lab-rat.

As for the "why" - I have a post earlier about that, the reasoning of their dicision just sounds to un-ordinary for it to be a concearn of Wiccans.

Misfit

I can't wait to hear the update from the school board meeting. I hope that they are flooded with letters from Wiccans. Of course since they also gave two other reasons for cancelling the festivities I'm not sure that letters from witches would help bring the festivities back. At least the school district will think twice before blaming their decisions on someone else!

Jemison