Daniel predicting the breakup of the United States?!!!

Knowing this and seeing all the news articles on succession recently I thought I would mention this. Is Daniel predicting the breakup of the United States?

succession links
link 2
link 3

Here's the prophesies from Daniel to worry about.
Daniel 8
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Daniel 11
1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.
2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.


Now why are these prophesies important? Because of the term "time of the end" that was used in Daniel 8. And used in Daniel 11 in verse 6. This term is defined in Genesis 48 and 49 as meaning this. See verse 49-1.

Time of the end, last days, end of the days, etc = When the Israelites have become a multitude of nations.

With this definition of that term that would mean any events that happened in the BC era could not have fulfilled the prophesies mentioned here. THEY WOULD STILL BE FUTURE EVENTS!

So then why would Daniel be using the term "Greece" here then? Because he is describing visions he had. Greece here in the prophesies is not the nation of Greece per se. It's actually a symbol. A simile or metaphor . He's saying the object in question looks Greek.

Now look at Daniel 11-2 again.
And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

This is a perfectly accurate description of the 9-11 attacks on Washington DC.

Then Daniel 8 predicts what this realm of Greece does in retaliation for those attacks. It attacks and conquers 2 nations/kings in the middle east. Then it predicts the death of the ram (Persia today's Iran) then the 4 way fracturing of the realm of Greece. Then Daniel 11-6 predicts the signing of an agreement that would appear to be the 7 year agreement of Daniel 9.

Something to think about. The Apocalypse is running.

Well, the United States government has already fulfilled the ultimate prophecy.
For those of you who would like to know how...watch this video

Amercia end times prophecy

deleted.

i think he may be talking about the uk not usa the 4 kingdoms to rise from one england scotland wales ireland? lets not forget uk was also involved in the middle east wars every bit as much as americans were just something to think about

reply to post by ntech

Let's assume, for the moment, that this prophecy is about America.
I'm not entirely convinced, but I'm willing to live with it for the purposes of this argument.
My point is that, even so, the "break-up into four pieces" would not be about the break-up of the United States proper. It would be about the break-up of the "overseas empire" of the United States.

We need to take the ancient history which lies behind the prophecies in Daniel, and use that as our guideline.
In ch7, the Persian empire is represented by the lop-sided bear ("the Medes and the Persians") which seizes "three ribs". These ribs can be identified with the previous great empires occupying Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Anatolia.
When Alexander the great, "the king of Greece", conquered the Persian empire, this also involved taking over those intermediate regions, Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Anatolia.

When he died, his empire broke up. But this did NOT mean- please note this carefully- that the original "Grecian" (ie Macedonian) empire broke up.
No, what happened was that the expanded empire of Alexander broke up into about four realms (the number varied, because they kept fighting each other), which can be identified with Mesopotamia, Egypt, Anatolia, and Macedonia.
In other words, the intermediate regions recovered their separate identities, while Macedonia simply reverted to the previous un-expanded state.

If you're going to equate the United States with Macedonia, then you need to distinguish between the "original kingdom" (ie the 50 states) and the "expanded empire" (ie the overseas areas, like Iraq and Afghanistan, over which American power extends).
In that case the "break-up of the empire" would simply mean that America would lose the "overseas" control of other areas, and revert, like Macedonia, to its original un-expanded form. That is, the 50 states of North America,

Originally posted by ntech
So then why would Daniel be using the term "Greece" here then? Because he is describing visions he had. Greece here in the prophesies is not the nation of Greece per se. It's actually a symbol. A simile or metaphor . He's saying the object in question looks Greek.

No, this is wrong.
Never, at any time, does Daniel describe seeing something which he calls Greece, so the "looks like Greece to Daniel" argument does not work.
He sees a goat, and the angel TELLS HIM that it is Greece.
If you keep referring to this imaginary vision of Greece, I must keep pointing out that the vision is imaginary. It does not happen.

reply to post by DISRAELI

No, this is wrong. Never, at any time, does Daniel describe seeing something which he calls Greece, so the "looks like Greece to Daniel" argument does not work. He sees a goat, and the angel TELLS HIM that it is Greece. If you keep referring to this imaginary vision of Greece, I must keep pointing out that the vision is imaginary. It does not happen.

Actually he does see visions. And in both visions he sees a "thing" (for lack of a better description) and he is told it's Greece.
Daniel 8
1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.
2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

Daniel 10
5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.




However you are ignoring this detail.

Daniel 8
26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Daniel 12
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel was told to intentionally add a few difficulties to make this prophesy hard to understand. And the Lord himself added a few as well.

Daniel 8 and 11 are descriptions of visions Daniel had. Which occur in the time of the end. And according to Matthew 24 and the fig tree prophesy when you see end time events occurring you are getting very close to the time of the end. And the rebirth of Israel in 1948 would qualify as one.

Essentially you should be looking for the events of Daniel to be happening now. Considering the generation is 64 years old and could be going to 70 to 80 year long. And you need to keep an open mind on the subject.

So far Daniel appears to be 3 for 3. Somebody attacking Iran would make him 4 for 4. And the US fracturing 4 ways would make him 5 for 5.

Originally posted by ntech
Actually he does see visions. And in both visions he sees a "thing" (for lack of a better description) and he is told it's Greece.

Yes, that's exactly the point I was making.
And that's why I keep urging you to drop the "he calls it Greece because he thinks it looks like Greece" argument, which is a different story..

So far Daniel appears to be 3 for 3. Somebody attacking Iran would make him 4 for 4. And the US fracturing 4 ways would make him 5 for 5.

If there was a parallel with Daniel, it would not be the original U.S fracturing, but the extended imperial power of the U.S., with the original "50 states" U.S. being one of the four fragments.
(I argued that point in more detail in the first of my two posts]

reply to post by DISRAELI

Problem here. You're not looking at the 11-4 prophesy closely.

4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

The problem is the federal government is destroyed. Along with a number of other governments. Also look farther into Daniel 11. Why is the north and the south fighting WW2 all over? Why doesn't the north just nuke the south? The only thing I'm coming up with is that they already fought WW3. These governments are nuked out of existence.

reply to post by ntech

Yes, but it's the kingdom that exists when he dies that breaks up, not the kingdom he started with.
As was the case with Alexander. It was the expanded empire of Macedonia-Anatolia-Egypt-Mesopotamia that was broken up, not his original Macedonian kingdom.
So the parallel would be the break-up of American imperial power, not the break-up of the U.S. itself.

Originally posted by ntech
and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

I think you misunderstand the last part of that quote.
"Even for others besides those" is actually following on from "not to his posterity".
"Besides those" means "other than his descendants".
It means that his power even in the original kingdom will go to other familes, as happened in the case of Alexander's realms.

Originally posted by ntech
Knowing this and seeing all the news articles on succession recently I thought I would mention this. Is Daniel predicting the breakup of the United States?


[...]

Then Daniel 8 predicts what this realm of Greece does in retaliation for those attacks. It attacks and conquers 2 nations/kings in the middle east. Then it predicts the death of the ram (Persia today's Iran) then the 4 way fracturing of the realm of Greece. Then Daniel 11-6 predicts the signing of an agreement that would appear to be the 7 year agreement of Daniel 9.

edit on 15-11-2012 by ntech because: Spell check and error correction.

I'm not sure why you insist on saying that "Grecia" is the US, especially when the angel says it's Grecia...

Grecia is the EU, where the little horn comes from. The little horn has to be from the N and W of Israel (Dan 8:9). The US is Dan 7's 4th terrible beast with 10 horns. On 12-21-12 is some sort of incident drives the US into martial law and into the 10 FEMA states. 5 months of Trumpet 5 (the insane depression of ungodly people) takes us to 5-21-13 when some sort of govt is set up (ending the depression of ungodly people and starting the persecution of the saints). 1260 days later is 11-1-16, 1st Tues of Nov, election day. The antichrist is explictly given authority to continue for 42 months (1260 days).

Daniel's beast empires are pretty complicated, so feel free to point out any errors. I'm not an authority on it but here is my 2 cents on the beasts:

Daniel 7's beasts are the same empire group that the whore of Babylon of Rev. 12 and 13 rides.

Dan 7's beast
-
17: 17 ‘The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth.

-1 for the lion (UK and/ or modern day Babylon/ Iraq)
-1 for the bear (medeo-persia Russia/ Iran/ Turkey
-1 for the leopard (Greece - the EU with 4 heads that have dominion (Dan 7:6)
-1 for the 4th beast with 10 horns (with bronze claws and iron teeth)

Now look at Rev 12. This beast is described as having 7 heads/ 10 horns/ 7 crowns. Rev. 13 is 7 heads/ 10 horns/ 10 crowns.

Rev. 17 says that the whore of Babylon/ apostate church rides this empire that has 7 heads and 10 horns (and doesn't mention any crowns. - meaning it rides both the Rev 12 empire and the Rev 13 empire.)

These are the same.

8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

This is the little horn (that comes from the N and W of Israel - London and/ or the Vatican). He takes over 3 horns - meaning the other 3 from the 4 heads of the Leopard empire. Add up all the heads: 1 lion, 1 bear, 4 leopard, 1 "terrible beast" with 10 horns = 7 heads/ 10 horns.

Look at Rev. 13

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Why is the 1st beast mentioned the leopard? B/c he is the one with the dominion. It is the leopard who has the bear feet and the mouth of a lion. The dragon is the same as the 4th beast with 10 horns. So read it again like this :

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a [Satanic empire ruled by the apostate church] rise up out of the sea, having seven [countries] and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the [Satanic empire] which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the [4th beast with 10 horns] gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the [4th beast with 10 horns] which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The mouth/ the false prophet/ US leader is given power for 42 months.

Now let's continue with Rev 17

3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:
babylon the great
the mother of prostitutes
and of the abominations of the earth.

6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7 Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

When it says that there is an 8th king that means that there is an extra horn = the little horn beast from the sea. In other words, there are 7 kings (meaning the 7 head/ 10 horn empire ruled by the leopard king who took over the other 3 heads in the EU kingdom). The 8th king is the little horn/ 11th horn that comes up among this same Satanic empire group.

And it says that the beast that recovers from a mortal head wound is the 8th king/ 11th horn/ little horn. When 5 heads have fallen, then there is one king standing - then the last head, the 4th beast, the dragon comes, then the little horn/ 8th king comes. The Rev 12 Satanic empire, the 7 head/ 10 horn/ 7 crown empire lasts for 1260 days. The rev 13 Satanic empire, the 7 head/ 10 horn/ 10 crown empire lasts 42 months/ 1260 days also.

I'm not sure why you insist on saying that "Grecia" is the US, especially when the angel says it's Grecia...

To answer this question as simply as possible imagine you're Daniel watching a vision of the events of 9-11. You see these white flying tubes impale the WTC towers in explosions of fire and then the towers collapse. Then he sees an aerial view of Washington DC. And then another of these flying tubs or arrows impact the Pentagon.

Now how do you explain this extraordinary sight in just a few words? Knowing that it's not to be understood until after it happens. Just call Washington DC the realm of Greece. Problem solved.

Originally posted by ntech
To answer this question as simply as possible imagine you're Daniel watching a vision of the events of 9-11. You see these white flying tubes impale the WTC towers in explosions of fire and then the towers collapse. Then he sees an aerial view of Washington DC. And then another of these flying tubs or arrows impact the Pentagon.

Now how do you explain this extraordinary sight in just a few words? Knowing that it's not to be understood until after it happens. Just call Washington DC the realm of Greece. Problem solved.

But, as I've pointed out on previous occasions, he doesn't see anything like this.
He sees an animal, and the angel TELLS HIM that the animal is Greece.
You have already admitted this point a couple of posts back.
Why do you persist in presenting an argument which you have already acknowledged as a mistake?
The "he calls it Greece because he thinks it looks like Greece" line of argument is utterly false

reply to post by ntech

Now look at Daniel 11-2 again.
And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

This is a perfectly accurate description of the 9-11 attacks on Washington DC.

I am not saying you are wrong but this entire passage is hard to follow.
This exact quote of your post is most definitely NOT a "perfectly accurate description".
As a matter of fact, it is vague, bleak and very innaccurate of 9/11 in my opinion.

I believe that those particular visions Daniel had were of events being foretold around his era.
Even some future events to some extent, in his time, but not the 9/11 incident at all.

Either way, there are things described that are difficult to understand.
I'm not saying he didn't have accurate predictions, just that this wasn't about 9/11.

Now I'm going to tell you guys the story of why I am freaked about this.

Back in 2001 after 9-11 I realized I had an opportunity to do the craziest thing imaginable in a religious sense. I realized I could fulfill a biblical prophesy. What I didn't realize was that "God" would completely freak out when I succeeded. I am in soooo much trouble. I actually got to see REAL apocalyptic visions. Stigmata. And a ancient Jewish name for God was stamped in my leg by supernatural forces. A triple beit. The mark of a righteous man. I'm a saint. And a member of the host since 11-2-2001.

Now here is what I saw that pertains to this thread.

After I completed the final task I then said it out loud. And that's when ALL HOLY HELL broke loose. Harry Potter would have been proud. But this is what I experienced.

There was a ding in my ears. Like the tones of a hearing test. Then my vision blanked out to a dark gray background. And then I wasn't in Kansas anymore. It was as if my spirit has been grabbed and was being propelled upwards at a high rate of speed. And there was flashes and streaks of light. And oddly enough numbers. The number 2 to be precise. Like the old Starfield simulator screen saver for Windows 95.

After a few seconds of that then the view changed. And I was there floating in space. Looking at the stars. But these were very strange stars and a very strange space. For in this space glowing faintly in the background was the words for Daniel 11 and the stars were scattered through these words. But these stars were little number 2s. Showing the points of duality in the prophesy. The previous fulfillment. And the future one.

After a few seconds of that then the focus of the vision changed. Suddenly I was aware of being back in my body with this extremely bright picture of the starfield.in my head. And it felt like it was expanding in my head. And there was this feeling of pressure for a few seconds and then it was over. Leaving me with a headache for the rest of the day.

Read Daniel 12:1 as well.....at that time, Michael will rise up.............whaaat?

It's possible that you received the "revelation of the resurrection"........

reply to post by Christopher58


Actually You're right.

8-7
And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

A carcass.

11-4
And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

These prophesies are just different views of the same event.