Canadian Grade Eight Social Studies: Who Is The Prophet Of Muslims?

Originally posted by curiouscanadian777
I made that comment because when you say k-8, it sounds like they are getting this all through elementary. It's one grade they're getting this.

You're saying you don't want your 8th grader learning this, I'm saying I'm fine with my 8th grader learning it.
You say it has no educational merit, I'm saying it does.
Again, it is not about what *I* think, it is about convincing the majority of parents, teachers and whoever else that it needs to be removed from the curriculum.

If you want to make that your crusade, as Unity does, more power to you.

But notice, never once did you explain the educational merit it provides.

Alas, there isn't one, there is no practical difference in knowing and not knowing what the "Most Important Jewish book is."

Where does that knowledge help in any capacity to an 8th grader?

If you can answer that with substance, then your position is valid. If not, it's not.

It's like saying red is blue, you can say it -- it doesn't make it true, and it's not an opinion.

And again, it's not my Crusade, this is a discussion thread no? I could careless if they are teaching this to kids in Canada. My point is, there is no educational merit, so therefor; it need not be in the curriculum. I'm not talking to a school board here... last I checked I was on ATS.

Here, I'll walk you through how to debate;

I explain how it has no merit.

If you feel it does, explain specifically the points of that merit.

If you can't, then the logic is sound, and it doesn't belong in school.

Simple.

reply to post by Laykilla


What is controversial or wrong in knowing that the Bible is what the Christians believe in, the Torah for Judaism or the Qu'ran for Muslims?

They are just facts. Just like it was a fact that at one point people thought the Earth revolved around the Sun. The concept was never true but it was a fact in history.

Okay, fair enough.

Educational merit...
You've all ready said yourself you felt it had educational merit, just that it is not appropriate at grade 8 level.
That is your opinion. You can say this is over kids' that ages heads, but that is subjective. I was watching the news and encouraged to by grade 4. I personally think it has tremendous educational value in knowing the what and why, and also context for the present.
We are talking about one unit on world religions in a social studies book.
Wherein they are talking about what other people believe, not what to believe.
Social Studies is defined as "a part of a school or college curriculum concerned with the study of social relationships and the functioning of society."
Religion plays a huge part in "the functioning of society and social relationships", both in the past and in the present.
They are teaching a general overview of each religion and then testing them on what they've learned.
Again, what others believe not what to believe.
This would then, I assume, be built on in the other units of the book, giving context to what is covered later.
I don't have a problem with this.
Again, it is not about what you or I believe, but what the majority of parents are going to agree on. You are saying you couldn't care less what Canadian kids are taught, but that you do think it should be removed from the curriculum?!

I have to go now, but listen, there are many many posts in this thread that answer your questions far better than I have. (I've never claimed to be a talented debater )

Originally posted by curiouscanadian777
Okay, fair enough.

Educational merit...
You've all ready said yourself you felt it had educational merit, just that it is not appropriate at grade 8 level.
That is your opinion. You can say this is over kids' that ages heads, but that is subjective. I was watching the news and encouraged to by grade 4. I personally think it has tremendous educational value in knowing the what and why, and also context for the present.
We are talking about one unit on world religions in a social studies book.
Wherein they are talking about what other people believe, not what to believe.
Social Studies is defined as "a part of a school or college curriculum concerned with the study of social relationships and the functioning of society."
Religion plays a huge part in "the functioning of society and social relationships", both in the past and in the present.
They are teaching a general overview of each religion and then testing them on what they've learned.
Again, what others believe not what to believe.
This would then, I assume, be built on in the other units of the book, giving context to what is covered later.
I don't have a problem with this.
Again, it is not about what you or I believe, but what the majority of parents are going to agree on. You are saying you couldn't care less what Canadian kids are taught, but that you do think it should be removed from the curriculum?!

I have to go now, but listen, there are many many posts in this thread that answer your questions far better than I have. (I've never claimed to be a talented debater

)

edit on 2-11-2012 by curiouscanadian777 because: add comment

I've given you a star. This is how conversations should go. Anytime you disagree, take the time to explain the why. People will respect your opinions more for doing so, since they have substance.

Oh, and yeah, I did say I could care less what kids in Canada learn. That's carefully worded.

I care, a little.. that's why I could care less. However; How I feel about kids learning in Canada had no bearing on whether or not I felt it had any merit.


Also; a side note,

Social Studies is generally to teach "Social Order" throughout history. This is more about Classes in terms of wealth and ability, like Nobles vs Peasants. When I was in social studies [I'm only 26, so not as long ago as many others] we learned about Hierarchy, kings & queens, knights and nobility. Mostly medieval times things to teach Society Structures of the past as a ground work to learning how we got to be how we are today.

Not to teach how society works. Or the intricacies of diverse society. That's college grade stuff for sure.

Hahaha, yes, fair enough
You've made me think, always a good thing.
Now, I am seriously late here...lol

reply to post by Laykilla


A dictionary definition of Social Studies:

The study of history, geography, civics, sociology, economics, and other social science subjects, especially in primary and secondary schools

To take the a little step further this is the definition of Sociology:

The traditional focuses of sociology have included social stratification, social class, culture, social mobility, religion, secularization, law, and deviance. As all spheres of human activity are affected by the interplay between social structure and individual agency, sociology has gradually expanded its focus to further subjects, such as health, medical, military and penal institutions, the Internet, and the role of social activity in the development of scientific knowledge.

These classes are vital in Canadian society because we are a multicultural society that lives by the mosaic model. The unit of World Religions is framed around basic knowledge facts not an intense and in depth study of every religion's theology. That is best left for post-secondary education.

From replies on this thread there are many of us who grew up in this system of education with our belief (or lack thereof) systems intact. It is how we break down the barriers of the "us versus them" mentality that is dangerous.

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Social Studies is generally to teach "Social Order" throughout history. This is more about Classes in terms of wealth and ability, like Nobles vs Peasants. When I was in social studies [I'm only 26, so not as long ago as many others] we learned about Hierarchy, kings & queens, knights and nobility. Mostly medieval times things to teach Society Structures of the past as a ground work to learning how we got to be how we are today.

Not to teach how society works. Or the intricacies of diverse society. That's college grade stuff for sure.

edit on 2-11-2012 by Laykilla because: (no reason given)

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uh no this is all basic stuff that every child should know.. seriously college material? what college did you go to..? I actually learned all this stuff in the 6th grade, why canadian 8th graders are just now learning about it seems to be well backwards.. and it is important information.. are you never going to run across someone from a different religious background than yourself? Have you never met a jew, muslim, christian, buddhist, hindu, or insert "major religion here" COME ON! They aren't opening a bible, torah, or qua'an and reading from it.. they are giving facts about basic groups of people!! work some brain cells people.

reply to post by MonkeyFishFrog

The worst thing learning about other religions and cultures can do is peak curiosity, and encourage more in depth study. I think that is really the crux of what religious extremists are afraid of. That their kids might study more, understand more, and then decide they do not believe exactly what their parents believe. Well, fortunately, they cannot keep their kids locked up forever, they still have that chance when they are not chained up by their parent's insecurities as adults. The downside is, it is not easy to break 18 years of brainwashing, especially when a lot of it is done when you are an impressionistic youth.

reply to post by TKDRL


I agree with you completely. I know that for myself the class just helped to reaffirm my nonbeliever stance when it came to religions but it eased my hate and distrust of them. Back then I didn't even know that Muslims followed Islam. I thought they were two completely different religions.

reply to post by MonkeyFishFrog


Yeah, didn't change my beliefs any, but it did help me to understand a bit more, and got me curious enough to study religions more thoroughly. At the heart of most religions, they are really more similar than people would think or like to believe. It seems a lot of people would rather live in ignorance though. A lot of people's only "understanding" of muslim's religion comes from crap propaganda sites for example

reply to post by TKDRL


Me too. It was an Anthropology of Religion course that got me into the field (I just got my associates in cultural/social anthropology).

When I was in school, I learned this stuff. And I went to school in Texas.

What is so wrong about your kids learning about another religion? Afraid they might be tolerant towards the people who practice these religions? That they might be educated enough about these other religions that they can hold an intelligent conversation about them, knowing what they are talking about instead of looking ignorant? I'm just trying to figure out what you're all up in arms about over this.

wow the ignorance is staggering by some posters...yes what a terrible thing it would be if everyone had a basic understanding of other cultures beliefs..i guess ignorance is bliss..canada is plum full of other cultures..get over it and get used to it, there is nothing gonna change it whether you or i like it or not ..what are y,all afraid of
this is not for grade school kids ..kids in high school i have no problem them learning some basics of the major religeons

World English Dictionary
bigot (ˈbɪɡət)

— n
a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race

[C16: from Old French: name applied contemptuously to the Normans by the French, of obscure origin]

'bigoted

Can I burn one of those book? I find it stupid that it would be put on a test like that.

a reply to: Unity_99

There were 124000 prophets in which only 25 are mentioned. Muhammed (pbuh) is the final messenger. When you make a claim about lies or paedophilia please kindly make a link through a legitimate source. If any questions may arise people may answer you if they have the knowledge.
The Jews were favoured above others for a long time. Many prophets came from their side. This is why they believed themselves to be "God's chosen people".
Knowing something about others may help your child. Whether what the school teaches about social studies actually being usefull for social studies I would not know. Personally I'm finding yr 12 pdhpe boring due to the learnt knowledge being basic or practically useless (in my case).
He is not my child so I do not have a right to tell you what to do. Complain if you will though make sure to bring a reasonable argument for when you do.
I would like to know how to post something on forum. I am new and would like help.

If we just destroyed our relics and our History.

We could just make up our own History. We could make it say anything we want.

Any part that didn't fit my extremely narrow view of History.

It would immediately be changed to make me look good and align with my views.

Those pesky historic facts....Always causing trouble.

a reply to: ollncasino

Just as there are laws for; there are some against. You seem to have taken a one sided argument which favors what you believe. Taking things out of context may happen as well from time to time deliberate or undeliberate.
Here's an example: in driving we are not allowed to speed. Unless you are a police officer, ambulance driver etc.
As you can see exceptions are made.
What you believe is up to you but you must realise even without religion people will find reason fight. If they can't find reason, they will create it.
I thank youbfor coming on the topic