Burying the crescent moon / moon god nonsense once and for all.

reply to post by truejew

Yahweh does not come from Christian/Jewish sources. It comes from Babylonian Jewish sources. Babylonian Judaism is a completely different religion from the Judaism/Christianity of the Bible.

Perpetrating more errors again. Yahweh is not Babylonian. The Babylonian moongod is Sin (Sh-een).

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by truejew

 

Yahweh does not come from Christian/Jewish sources. It comes from Babylonian Jewish sources. Babylonian Judaism is a completely different religion from the Judaism/Christianity of the Bible.

Perpetrating more errors again. Yahweh is not Babylonian. The Babylonian moongod is Sin (Sh-een).

If you look again, I said Babylonian Jewish, not Babylonian.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by truejew

 

Yahweh does not come from Christian/Jewish sources. It comes from Babylonian Jewish sources. Babylonian Judaism is a completely different religion from the Judaism/Christianity of the Bible.

Perpetrating more errors again. Yahweh is not Babylonian. The Babylonian moongod is Sin (Sh-een).

If you look again, I said Babylonian Jewish, not Babylonian.

Babylonian jewish is an oxymoron.

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

They are not the same.

Why?
The Koran tells us that Allah did the same exact things as the God of the bible....

- Created the universe in 6 days
- Created Adam, punished him and Eve for eating the fruit
- Guided Noah and the ark
- Guided and inspired the Israelite prophets
- Bestowed special favors on the Israelites
- Sent Jesus to be born of a virgin

I've read the whole Koran as well as the Hadiths and can tell you that they are not the same. While the Koran does retell some of the stories from the Bible for the most part it contradicts everything that the Bible says.

While the Koran admits that Jesus was born of a virgin and did miracles it rejects the fact Jesus actually died on the cross. According to the Koran it was Judas with the appearance of Jesus who actually died. No offence, but it sounds to me like the god of the Koran has purposely deceived the people into thinking that it was Jesus who died, and let the people live that lie for 622 years. In other words, according to the Koran God purposely allowed the world to be deceived into thinking that Jesus died on the cross, only to come back 600 years later and say "I was just kidding", it was actually Judas who died and Jesus is not the Son of God, but just another prophet. I find that a little far fetched and not in harmony with the God of the Bible.

(5:116) And imagine when thereafter Allah will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to people: "Take me and my mother for gods beside Allah?" and he will answer: "Glory to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right to. Had I said so, You would surely have known it. You know all what is within my mind whereas I do not know what is within Yours. You, indeed You, know fully all that is beyond the reach of human perception.
(5:117) I said to them nothing except what You commanded me, that is: 'Serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord.' I watched over them as long as I remained among them; and when You did recall me, then You Yourself became the Watcher over them. Indeed, You are Witness over everything.
(5:118) If You chastise them, they are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are the All- Mighty, the All-Wise."'
(5:119) Thereupon Allah will say: 'This day truthfulness shall profit the truthful. For them are Gardens beneath which rivers flow. There they will abide for ever. Allah is well- pleased with them, and they well-pleased with Allah. That indeed is the mighty triumph.'
(5:120) To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is in them and He has full power over everything.[Quran-surah 5]

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by mamabeth

 

Anything I feel is a reliable source of information,others would disagree. I walk by faith not by sight.

ok, but this doesn't change my opinion, that allah, jehova and yahweh are one and the same deity.

They are not the same, if they were, things would be in harmony with each other, but this is not the case. You asked about the archangels. This is a pretty deep topic and I could go on forever, but I'll keep it short. It is true that the Archangel Gabriel can be found in all three faiths. But it should be noted that the appearance to Muhammad is a little strange and does not fit the behavior we see from Gabriel in both the old and new testament.

I don't believe that it was really the angle Gabriel who Muhammad had contact with. Whoever this being really was scared the living daylights out of Muhammad, so bad that he was ready to kill himself behind it. The real angels of God do not bring fear.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

here in germany, we have a saying: "angst, himmlischer treibstoff". it means, "fear, heavenly fuel". isn't it the instincts like fear that serves a human being to stay alive and healthy ?

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

here in germany, we have a saying: "angst, himmlischer treibstoff". it means, "fear, heavenly fuel". isn't it the instincts like fear that serves a human being to stay alive and healthy ?

Well the scriptures do say "Fear the Lord, and depart from evil", so in a since your right . But let's not sugar coat it, the angel that came to Muhammad made it a point that he was in control, pretty much forced himself on Muhammad. Again, this does not fit the behavior of the Angel Gabriel from the Bible.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

I don't believe that it was really the angle Gabriel who Muhammad had contact with. Whoever this being really was scared the living daylights out of Muhammad, so bad that he was ready to kill himself behind it. The real angels of God do not bring fear.

You cant be serious.

If the "real angels of God do not bring fear", as you say.... then does it mean that Mary did not encounter a real angel?

Mary was afraid upon seeing the angel who spoke to her.


In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. ...


We clearly see that Mary was definitely uneasy and troubled, when she first saw the angel. The angel had to re-assure her not to be afraid.

So it makes perfect sense that Mohammad freaked out when he encountered Gabriel, that too in a cave of all places.

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

here in germany, we have a saying: "angst, himmlischer treibstoff". it means, "fear, heavenly fuel". isn't it the instincts like fear that serves a human being to stay alive and healthy ?

Well the scriptures do say "Fear the Lord, and depart from evil", so in a since your right

. But let's not sugar coat it, the angel that came to Muhammad made it a point that he was in control, pretty much forced himself on Muhammad. Again, this does not fit the behavior of the Angel Gabriel from the Bible.

the mention of Gabriel comes twice in bible, once in OT and once in NT, and thats enough to define behaviour of the Angel?
.
And anyone suddenly confronted with something paranormal, unseen would have panic as first reaction, until he is convinced that its ok and not harmful.
.
Also Gabriel appears in form of a man, then the behaviour of the other person would be calmer but an unplaced voice/feeling of a presence etc could be enough to freak out someone.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

I don't believe that it was really the angle Gabriel who Muhammad had contact with. Whoever this being really was scared the living daylights out of Muhammad, so bad that he was ready to kill himself behind it. The real angels of God do not bring fear.

You cant be serious.

If the "real angels of God do not bring fear", as you say.... then does it mean that Mary did not encounter a real angel?

Mary was afraid upon seeing the angel who spoke to her.


In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. ...


We clearly see that Mary was definitely uneasy and troubled, when she first saw the angel. The angel had to re-assure her not to be afraid.

So it makes perfect sense that Mohammad freaked out when he encountered Gabriel, that too in a cave of all places.

edit on 30-10-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Your right, Mary was a little rattled. But notice how in this account Gabriel tells her not to fear. Why didn't Gabriel do the same to Muhammad? Why did this angel who came to Muhammad scare him so bad that he wanted to kill himself? Whoever it was that came to Muhammad brought a different type of fear. But more importantly, why does this angel bring a different revelation than what he gave to Mary? Clearly the two stories are not the same, so one of these accounts is wrong?

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


different revelation?? I guess it was the news of a son to be born to her.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

different revelation?? I guess it was the news of a son to be born to her.

News of a son yes. But the remaining message is totally different. Let's compare:

Bible Account
26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed[a] to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” 34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”

35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. 36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her. Luke 1:26-38

Quran Account
“(And mention) when the angels said, ‘O Mary, indeed God gives you the good news of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and of those who are near to God.’ ‘He will speak to the people in the cradle, and in old age, and he will be of the righteous.’ She said, ‘My Lord, how can I have a son when no man has touched me.’ He said, ‘So (it will be,) for God creates what He wants. When He decides something, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is. And He will teach him the Book and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel. And (will make him) a messenger to the Children of Israel (saying), ‘Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I make for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, then breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by the permission of God. And I heal the blind and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by the permission of God. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Surely, there is a sign for you in that, if you are believers. And (I have come) confirming the Torah that was (revealed) before me, and to allow you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a proof from your Lord, so fear God and obey me. Indeed, God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. This is the straight path.” (Quran 3:45-51)

“And mention in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to an eastern place. And she placed a screen to seclude herself from them. Then We sent to her Our angel (Gabriel), and he took the form of a well-created man before her. She said, “Indeed I seek refuge with the Most Merciful from you, if you do fear God.” (The angel) said, ‘I am only the messenger of your Lord to give to you (the news of) a pure boy.’ She said, ‘How can I have a son, when no man has touched me (in marriage), and I am not a prostitute?’ He said, So your Lord said, ‘It is easy for Me. And We will make him a sign to people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter (already) decided.’” (Quran 19:16-21)

I'm sure you can see the difference.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

ya i see the difference,
bible account 35 is a bit sick, Holy Spirit coming upon Mary?? it gives a bad image, is that a mating scene?
What i see is someone trying to describe a miracle of God(Be and it is!) to others of low understanding and also forwarding the idea to God's son.
And the mention of Elizabeth is, if i can say God's wisdom, a barren woman with an old husband being pregnant? Did Holy Spirit also came upon her and God overshadowed her? Great!! then, John the baptist is the elder son of God and Jesus his younger brother(half brother to be precise)
and John is a greater miracle as at least Mary was young and fertile but Elizabeth barren and zachariah an old man.
I find Quran more consistent, John, Jesus, Isaac, they are all miracles of God, Jesus is born of Virgin to be a miracle n did miracles, so that people accept his message of reform and truth easily.
Humans have a tendancy to lift the image of the one they adore beyond reality and ultimately reach a point where they start worshipping them. Look at some singers/celibrities etc, they even are called "Idols" and are idolised and given a place that should be reserved just for God.
Thats the sad truth but God gave us free will, He wouldnt interfere, He would send a messenger to remind and bring people back to the truth and one day each one would be judged.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by truejew

 

Yahweh does not come from Christian/Jewish sources. It comes from Babylonian Jewish sources. Babylonian Judaism is a completely different religion from the Judaism/Christianity of the Bible.

Perpetrating more errors again. Yahweh is not Babylonian. The Babylonian moongod is Sin (Sh-een).

If you look again, I said Babylonian Jewish, not Babylonian.

Babylonian jewish is an oxymoron.

Do you have proof that most of Judaism was not infected by Babylonian customs and gods?

by the way, back to the topic.
To all who say that crescent moon and star is symbol for moon god in islam.
Do the christians worship the cross? A symbol of torture and death? It is used on many flags etc to symbolise christianity. But its revered more, people wear it around neck, kiss it, make hand signs to make a cross, hang crosses in houses to drive away evil, that intense attachment is worship.
.
But i havnt seen any muslim do that with the crescent symbol.
.
So we discover a new thing, christians worship the god of cross, the god of crucifix, the cross is christian's god!!
Sounds absurd right? Think how you sound to muslims when u say the moon god thing.
.
Now i will get replies like, "Jesus suffered on the cross for us and we remind ourself of it", "that reminds us of his sacrifice","our god died for us on the cross so we keep the cross"
.
thats all fine, but then thats your theology, you make symbols for your god and revere it, worship it.
.
Why you impose your theological framework on other religion and come out with absurd conclusions?? And feel great about it?!!
Let me give an example, some stupid evangalists tell their likely muslim customers, "call on Jesus for help and then call on your Muhammad for help and see who answers"
we muslims dont call anyone for help except God. its shirk(association) and an Extreme Sin. (by the way calling Jesus pbuh for help is also shirk)
.
So back to the point, if you have a narrow fixed framework of convoluted thinking, dont expect to understand more broad minded yet simple concepts.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

Your right, Mary was a little rattled. But notice how in this account Gabriel tells her not to fear. Why didn't Gabriel do the same to Muhammad?

I see you are backing away from your earlier claim about "real angels" of God not bringing fear.

Mary and Mohammad were 2 different people in 2 different scenarios. Gabriel acted differently with both of them. As for why Gabriel; didn't tell Mohammad not to be afraid, I dont know. I cant read Gabriels mind.... and I'm sure you cant either.

Why did this angel who came to Muhammad scare him so bad that he wanted to kill himself? Whoever it was that came to Muhammad brought a different type of fear. But more importantly, why does this angel bring a different revelation than what he gave to Mary? Clearly the two stories are not the same, so one of these accounts is wrong?

No such thing as "different type of fear".
Because different people can react differently to the same thing.

Also, nowhere is it written that angels are to bring the same revelation to everybody they encounter. They carry out whatever they are tasked with. Just because the revelations given to Mary and Mohammad were different doesn't mean one of the accounts is wrong.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

Your right, Mary was a little rattled. But notice how in this account Gabriel tells her not to fear. Why didn't Gabriel do the same to Muhammad?

I see you are backing away from your earlier claim about "real angels" of God not bringing fear.

Mary and Mohammad were 2 different people in 2 different scenarios. Gabriel acted differently with both of them. As for why Gabriel; didn't tell Mohammad not to be afraid, I dont know. I cant read Gabriels mind.... and I'm sure you cant either.

Why did this angel who came to Muhammad scare him so bad that he wanted to kill himself? Whoever it was that came to Muhammad brought a different type of fear. But more importantly, why does this angel bring a different revelation than what he gave to Mary? Clearly the two stories are not the same, so one of these accounts is wrong?

No such thing as "different type of fear".
Because different people can react differently to the same thing.

Also, nowhere is it written that angels are to bring the same revelation to everybody they encounter. They carry out whatever they are tasked with. Just because the revelations given to Mary and Mohammad were different doesn't mean one of the accounts is wrong.

There are many types of fear whether you believe it or not, might want to research that. Let's be real, the accounts are not same and neither is the message. If Muhammad really had contact with Gabriel his story would have been in harmony with what he told Mary in the Bible. In the Bible Gabriel clearly said that Jesus would be called "Son of God" and His (Jesus) kingdom would last forever. No mention of either in the Quran account. Why is that?

One of these accounts is wrong, if there not, then God is a liar, and I don't believe that.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-10

Muhammad clearly received a different gospel from whoever that angel was who came to him.

Originally posted by logical7
by the way, back to the topic.
To all who say that crescent moon and star is symbol for moon god in islam.
Do the christians worship the cross? A symbol of torture and death? It is used on many flags etc to symbolise christianity. But its revered more, people wear it around neck, kiss it, make hand signs to make a cross, hang crosses in houses to drive away evil, that intense attachment is worship.
.
But i havnt seen any muslim do that with the crescent symbol.
.
So we discover a new thing, christians worship the god of cross, the god of crucifix, the cross is christian's god!!
Sounds absurd right? Think how you sound to muslims when u say the moon god thing.
.
Now i will get replies like, "Jesus suffered on the cross for us and we remind ourself of it", "that reminds us of his sacrifice","our god died for us on the cross so we keep the cross"
.
thats all fine, but then thats your theology, you make symbols for your god and revere it, worship it.
.
Why you impose your theological framework on other religion and come out with absurd conclusions?? And feel great about it?!!
Let me give an example, some stupid evangalists tell their likely muslim customers, "call on Jesus for help and then call on your Muhammad for help and see who answers"
we muslims dont call anyone for help except God. its shirk(association) and an Extreme Sin. (by the way calling Jesus pbuh for help is also shirk)
.
So back to the point, if you have a narrow fixed framework of convoluted thinking, dont expect to understand more broad minded yet simple concepts.

Still doesn't answer why the Moon is apart of the logo for Islam. What is the official answer from the head Iman? I've yet to hear a real answer regarding that. Truth is, Islam doesn't want to accept the fact that they too have pagan backgrounds just like every other religion out there.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

If Muhammad really had contact with Gabriel his story would have been in harmony with what he told Mary in the Bible. In the Bible Gabriel clearly said that Jesus would be called "Son of God" and His (Jesus) kingdom would last forever.

Well, lets go over what the angel actually told Mary...

“Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.
- Mary had found favor with God.... and she was told she would have a son.
There is nothing in there about Mary giving birth to God or a "fully man, fully God" as Christians believe about Jesus. Its in line with what the Koran teaches.

32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.
-Well, he will be called the son of the most High.... just like Adam and David were also called sons of God.


The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
- Notice how David is symbolically called Jesus' father. God is not a part of Jesus' family tree. So no reason to assume Jesus was in any way divine... as the Koran teaches.

33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
- I thought Christians believed his reign would last for 1000 years?


Either way, the Korans account of Jesus being a) Born of a virgin b)being the messiah c) Returning to slay the anti-christ is in line with what the bible teaches about Jesus.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

If Muhammad really had contact with Gabriel his story would have been in harmony with what he told Mary in the Bible. In the Bible Gabriel clearly said that Jesus would be called "Son of God" and His (Jesus) kingdom would last forever.

Well, lets go over what the angel actually told Mary...

“Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.
- Mary had found favor with God.... and she was told she would have a son.
There is nothing in there about Mary giving birth to God or a "fully man, fully God" as Christians believe about Jesus. Its in line with what the Koran teaches.

32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.
-Well, he will be called the son of the most High.... just like Adam and David were also called sons of God.


The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
- Notice how David is symbolically called Jesus' father. God is not a part of Jesus' family tree. So no reason to assume Jesus was in any way divine... as the Koran teaches.

33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
- I thought Christians believed his reign would last for 1000 years?


Either way, the Korans account of Jesus being a) Born of a virgin b)being the messiah c) Returning to slay the anti-christ is in line with what the bible teaches about Jesus.

Now show me verses in the Quran which supports those statements.