USA was founded on Christianity, Deal With It

Thomas Crowne, are you refering to the Ten Commandments as the basis for our laws?

1) Thou shalt not have any other gods before me.
Verdict: It's legal to worship other gods.

2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images
Verdict: It's legal to make graven images.

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain�
Verdict: It's legal to his name in vain.

4) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy�
Verdict: It's legal to work on Sundays

5) Honour thy father and thy mother�
Verdict: It's legal to dishoner thy Father and Mother

6) Thou shalt not kill.
Verdict: Illegal. As it is EVERYWHERE ELSE. Since like, Plato.

7) Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Verdict: It's legal to commit adultery.

8) Thou shalt not steal.
Verdict: Illegal. Again, since like the beginning of time.

9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Verdict: Legal, unless you're in a court of law. Of course, this also includes gossip, and that's not illegal, so we're gonna have to wash this one.

10) Thou shalt not covet�
Verdict: Legal to covet. I'm coveting now. As we speak.

So, which laws are you referring to? Unless the Israelites had laws against double parking and Buffalo hunting, we're not exactly following them all to well.

EDIT: For your second post, because you're out of your mind if you think the Communists are somehow behind the fall of Christianity. The Communists were certainly bad, but Christians are responsible for the fall of Christianity, by living their lives as examples of everything that's wrong with religion. Hypocrisy and the need for control of your fellow man. Your religion has been used by many, many evil men, and it has been one of the most destructive forces that the world has ever known.

People have decided that they don't like it anymore. The world is growing and your religion is in its way. Christianity stands in the way of happiness and freedom. It is dying, and unless Christians grow up and put away their childish toys, their religion will become nothing more than a fable we tell children.

[edit on 19-10-2004 by brimstone735]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne


Nerdling, how many times must I explain this to you? Yes, this nation was founded on Christianity. The laws are based on the laws of the God of Israel. Laws, as a matter of fact, are created for the enforcement of morality (notice, I said laws, not statutes, which are commercial). Sorry to specify toy, Nerd, but after your post I got no further.

Umm...ok if we go by that rational then the United States was founded on Judiasm.

Did you ever pay attention in your history classes? Remember why those people left England in the first place? The last thing our founding fathers wanted was for religion and government to be combined. Thank you have a nice day.

[edit on 10/19/2004 by Lecky]

[edit on 10/19/2004 by Lecky]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

Nerdling, how many times must I explain this to you? Yes, this nation was founded on Christianity. The laws are based on the laws of the God of Israel. Laws, as a matter of fact, are created for the enforcement of morality (notice, I said laws, not statutes, which are commercial). Sorry to specify toy, Nerd, but after your post I got no further.

What is wrong with you? You still want to believe that the USA was based on Christianity? Well, it wasnt, and any respected historian will tell you just that. The laws of the US werent based on the Ten Commandments, but on common sense and universaly recognized concepts. Even if the Ten Commandments were the basis, as I recall, they are more relevent to Judaism than Christianity. By your logic, the US should be a Jewish state...

Luckly, the founding fathers were smart enough to put a constitutional barrier that forbids religion to have direct influence on the government. If they hadnt, we would probably have Christian fundamentalists trying to burn people at the stake for witchcraft and who knows what else. We could very well have become the christian equivalent of Iran or Afghanistan.

I'm wondering if anyone who believes that America was founded on Christianity, has gone to the link I provided above....see what the founding fathers thought of the bible and Christianity.....they didn't care for it, diind't paticularly believe in it....they beleived in a "god" not Christianity
www.postfun.com...

www.sullivan-county.com...
www.theology.edu...


[edit on 10/19/2004 by LadyV]

Couldn't help but notice that Moses is flanked by Hammurabi (pagan Babylonian king, author of the Code of Hammurabi) and Justicia (pagan Roman goddess of Justice). If the images of Moses & the 10 Commandments on and in the U.S. Supreme Court are used as an argument that Biblical law should be the law of the land, then how can you explain away the pagan ones?

Edited to replace "was" with "is".

[edit on 19-10-2004 by Hecate100]

And, since people have been enjoying one and two line quotes, allow me the indulgence of a single quote, myself. This one isn't a little one-liner, it isn't a few words taken out of context. It is also by a very prominent figure in the foundation of our country and nation although he wasn't the first president as many say he was - George Washington:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which least to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indespensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism who should labor to subvert these great Pilliars of human happiness - these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in the Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the opposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can previal in exclusion of religious principle."

What exactly is supposed to be the point here?

As has been said the USA was founded by people most of who were some sort of 'Christian' but it was hardly constructed as anything even remotely like the 'fundamentalist Christian Taliban nationalist states of America' certain odd churchy types there seem to desire.

Yes, indeed, Mr. Crowne, yet nowhere is it said in that quote that Biblical morality should be legislated, merely that the politicians should respect and cherish the religion(s) of their constituents. Which sentiment I heartily agree with.

The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
-George Washington


www.brainyquote.com...

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
The Soviets knew that the only way they were going to destroy this country is if the nation was weakened severely first. One of the main things necessary was to get the nation to turn its eyes away from its God. Communism and God doesn't mix, and by weakening us spiritually, that would also prepare us for communism.

What the Hell??? And your point meaning...we should all include God (the Christian one) into politics to strengthen our country? Was that your point...was there even supposed to be a point?

_________________________________________________________

OK Thomas, I want you to sincerely try and listen to what I am about to say...any rational person will be able to see why politics and religion do not mix.

We now live in a country that is more diversified than ever. There are millions of Americans who do not practice Christianity. What a better way to alienate a huge part of our country than to combine our government with the Christian religion!

Its best to keep religion out of governemt...this is a no brainer people! Religion and politics do not mix, and to actually think that God favors the Republican or Democratic party is beyond ridiculous. Religion is a personal matter and the government has no right to tell me or you who we should worship...who is the "true God". I want a fair government don't you? I think all Americans of all religions should feel they are being represented by their government.

And you know what? Even if this country was founded on Christianity (WHICH IT WASN'T)... so what?

America is a different place than it used to be, this is now 2004. Our nation is more multi diverse than ever...for us to stand as one we must be careful not to alienate people that make up this country! I don't see what the big problem is anyways, it's very easy to separate the two things entirely...they are 2 very different things:

Government = man-made rules, keeping order on a materialistic level for the benefit of all who live there.

Religion = sacred, spiritual, personal, hard to prove, easy to differ on b/c of the fact that no one really knows what happens after we die...and for the people that claim they do...prove it! (That's right you can't!)

How is this hard to understand? Why can't people grasp the obvious? When will people open their minds? Are there still people out there who think the only opinions that matter come from Christian white male conservatives? The bad news is...yes there are

LeckyAn awesome post! You get a "way above" vote from me!

[edit on 10/19/2004 by LadyV]

Thank you LadyV! I am flattered

Brimstone, did you here me say �Commandments�, although they represent the idea of the Judeo-Christian faith? No, I did not say that. Go down to the bottom of my post here, and you can search the many volumes I�ve written on this topic at this site. I�m not going to rewrite the same thing every time another misled person stumbles in. You�ll find everything from how the nation�s Founding Fathers, including Jefferson, agree that the Christian faith is best for this Experiment in Society to how the anti-Christian�s favorite bullet, the Treaty of Tripoli, is not an accurate bullet.

Double parking? Did I not clarify between statute and law? I don�t mean to be rude, but I believe we are operating on different levels, and you aren�t following.

Brim, your first paragraph of your edit makes accusations with no explanation in regard to evil men and Christianity, and then goes further to declare Christianity has been the most destructive force in history. Clarify, please. There has never been evil created in this world by men acting as Christians, ever. You also accused me of being out of my mind. I never claimed to be in it, but as far as the �Fall� of Christianity, whoever said it fell? Did I say that? No. Go back and read what I said, and afterward, do not attempt to twist my thoughts. And furthermore, the nation is based on Judeo-Christian ethics, morals and principles as well as the faith, it is not based on weak, human men. Do you see the difference?

Your last paragraph, while a bit offensive, also lacks substance. We Christians are to put away our childish toys and quit standing in the way of freedom and happiness or our religion will become a fable? You have freedom in this nation because the Founders acknowledged that those freedoms are God-given and that government does not have the authority to take away that which was given by God. Your assertion, therefore, is wrong. Your assertion that Christianity stands in the way of happiness is wrong, too. If you say it brings to light the pursuit of craven desires and therefore must be removed so that there will be no reminder that it is wrong, I�ll see your point. But don�t worry; this is going to happen. You aren�t going to get what you think you want, but you will get what the world is driving toward.

Lastly, you say the world is growing and Christianity doesn�t fit anymore. If I may, you almost liken it to diapers that the world no longer needs. As you can see, your edited paragraphs have strayed far beyond the original topic, but to answer this, Christianity is not something you grow �out of�, but you can certainly grow �away from�. The majority of the nation claims to be �Christian�, yet the nation is divided between to presidential candidates, one of whom stands squarely against fundamental Biblical understandings. Do you see a bit of �growing away from� even among those who have accepted Christ? Is this what you mean by us �putting away our childish toys�? When you say this, are you saying that it is okay for a Christian to call himself that, but not interact as one, or vote as one? Seems maybe you are getting what you are asking for. There is an oxymoron in there, though, when you attempt to claim that Christians have been a destructive force and at the same time demand that Christians not act as Christians should.

Thomas Crowne
Brimstone, did you here me say �Commandments�, although they represent the idea of the Judeo-Christian faith?

It doesn't matter even if you did say "Commandments" you said:

Thomas Crowne
Yes, this nation was founded on Christianity. The laws are based on the laws of the God of Israel.

Using your logic...then you must agree that this nation was founded by Judiasm since Christianity was based on Judiasm...right?

In Brimstone's defense...the first thing that popped in my head when I read your post was "The Ten Commandments" I love how you have the audacity to say:

Thomas Crowne
Go down to the bottom of my post here, and you can search the many volumes I�ve written on this topic at this site. I�m not going to rewrite the same thing every time another misled person stumbles in. You�ll find everything from how the nation�s Founding Fathers, including Jefferson, agree that the Christian faith is best for this Experiment in Society to how the anti-Christian�s favorite bullet, the Treaty of Tripoli, is not an accurate bullet.

It is your responsibility to make sure your posts are clear, not the readers...and by the way I'm still not sure on your whole standpoint that USA was founded on Christianity. Or why you hold on to that false belief so strongly...

[edit on 10/19/2004 by Lecky]

Christianity was based on Judaism, and Judaism was based on the pagan religion of Babylon. Much of our legal system is based on Roman law, and Christianity came quite late to that venue. So it's ludicrous to insist that Christianity is the sole source of law and morality.

Even in ancient times, when religion was pressed upon the people in the guise of law, the subsequent atrocities and injustices to those not of the "state religion" caused even more problems than they solved. The Roman Emperors thought it was moral to crucify Christians, as their religion was one with the state. The Inquisitors and witch-hunters felt they were being moral too, as their actions were also condoned and encouraged by the comingling of politics and religion. They all felt it was their moral duty to oppress and stifle any dissenting religious voices, and as the state religion and the government were one, great bloodshed was the result.

Look what is happening in the Middle East. There, it's perfectly moral and legal for Christians to be killed for preaching their beliefs in some Islamic countries. Some factions of Islam are particularly brutal to other sects of the same religion upon assuming political & legal power, just as happened between Catholics & Protestants during the Reformation in Europe. Again and again, history and even current events show us the dangers of allowing religion to gain too strong a foothold in the halls of law.

I point you, Mr. Crowne, to what it says on the Statue of Liberty:

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the goden door!"

The strength of the United States is in its diversity. The diversity of ethnicity as well as that of religion. If you keep imposing one brand of religion on all others, thereby implying that they're "not American" because they don't share the state religion, then how can you expect those others to support the causes of the state in other matters? They will feel excluded and used. History proves that such exclusionary actions on the part of a religion with excessive influence on political and legal matters only causes more dissent, which inevitably leads to bloody oppression.

The dangers are self-evident. The Founding Fathers feared such a thing, and rightly so. You cannot proclaim yourself to be a patriot if you are for liberty for some and against that of others.

The purpose of freedom of religeon was not to protect the government from the various religeons, it was to protect the various religeons from beliefs imposed by a government.

UNFORTUNATELY, the government has found a way to impose it's beliefs by denying the religeons to have freedom of expression.

[edit on 19-10-2004 by RonHum]

Originally posted by RonHum
The purpose of freedom of religeon was not to protect the government from the various religeons, it was to protect the various religeons from beliefs imposed by a government.

UNFORTUNATELY, the government has found a way to impose it's beliefs by denying the religeons to have freedom of expression.

[edit on 19-10-2004 by RonHum]

I'm not sure that I understand where your coming from. How has the government denied religious groups freedom? As far as I can tell, you are allowed to believe in, and practice any religion you want... as long as it doesnt interfere with other people's right to practice(or not practice) religion as they see fit.

The purpose of freedom of religeon was not to protect the government from the various religeons, it was to protect the various religeons from beliefs imposed by a government.

Sorry but I disagree. The purpose of the governement is to represent it's people, to protect the people...not to protect religion.

Originally posted by Amuk
Did you know

This is just a cut and paste and half the information is BS?

Sorry if i mislead anyone, i did note that it was e-mailed to me. But i should not have added it was fact with out checking first. I do not know if these are fact but it looks like alot of ATS members know the material very well and have corrected me. Thank you for your input.

Originally posted by Lecky
How is this hard to understand? Why can't people grasp the obvious? When will people open their minds? Are there still people out there who think the only opinions that matter come from Christian white male conservatives? The bad news is...yes there are

Yes, nice post. I still do not believe that we need to change our money, change our Pledge of Alligence, or change our Supreme Court building because it offends people of other religions. If you don't like, don't look at it. Like i posted above, i still question who or what created the beginning of life but i am not looking to change what has been in the country for so long. Thats all.