American Holodomor

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by simus
Concerning the issue of whether the starvation in Ukraine was planned, here are the opening words of Obama's statement on the subject, found at www.whitehouse.gov...

Is this a reply to me or to Stunspot who wrote in this thread that Western news media does not talk about Holodomor? This would help to refute his claim. To me it means nothing. Why should I give any credence to the claim of this Nobel Peace prize laureate who started a war? Besides I can't be even sure that he has enough education to form an adequate opinion on the issue. His college transcripts so far remain classified. State secret indeed.

Originally posted by tintin2012
What I was driving at as an example is the case of Stalin. He was not Russian. He was a Georgian and the scum bags that worked for him doing the most hideous jobs were not in the majority Russians.

Stalin and his comrades were not scumbags, but Knights Templar of the Proletariat. The scumbags are those who calls them this name.

Originally posted by tintin2012
But this is a deeper rabbit hole of a discussion.

Why can't you discuss at depths the main topic of this thread? There is as much proof of Holodomor in the USA as in Ukraine. Any scientific objections?

reply to post by simus

Why can't you discuss at depths the main topic of this thread? There is as much proof of Holodomor in the USA as in Ukraine. Any scientific objections?

You have been given much evidence that there was no holodomor in America, the subject of this thread. You have not provided evidence of anything, just the faulty conclusions of Borisov, based on demonstably untrue assumptions. I have no idea what you mean by "scientific" objections, but there are certainly powerful mathematical and logical objections which you have not yet addressed.

I would probably enjoy a conversation with you, but you have to do your share as well.

Originally posted by charles1952
You have been given much evidence that there was no holodomor in America, the subject of this thread. You have not provided evidence of anything, just the faulty conclusions of Borisov, based on demonstably untrue assumptions. I have no idea what you mean by "scientific" objections, but there are certainly powerful mathematical and logical objections which you have not yet addressed.

Good. After you said so please answer one simple question. Is there any evidence of Holodomor in Ukraine?

reply to post by simus

I'd be happy to give it a try, but first I need a definition for your meaning of evidence. Will you accept statements of people? A Ukranian news clipping of the time? Or do we need Soviet statistical data? That will help me answer your question.

Originally posted by charles1952
I'd be happy to give it a try, but first I need a definition for your meaning of evidence. Will you accept statements of people?

Of course, if they tell what they themswelves had seen. Some them up and see how much Holodomor victims you will get.

Originally posted by charles1952A Ukranian news clipping of the time?

You mean statistical data from Ukrainian immigration newspapers? Only if you can explain how they possibly could get any statistical data.

Originally posted by charles1952Or do we need Soviet statistical data?

I guess that this is the only statistical data you could give any credence whatsoever. By the way, whats wrong with using Soviet data? You have no problem using American data for America.

reply to post by simus

I guess that this is the only statistical data you could give any credence whatsoever. By the way, whats wrong with using Soviet data? You have no problem using American data for America.

So, if I understand you, the only thing you'll accept as evidence of the killing is statistics published by the government that did the killing. Ok.

But when you gave statistics, you mentioned 1926 and 1939, and those years only.

What's wrong with using Soviet statistics? I'll tell you. THEY DON'T EXIST.

Originally posted by charles1952
So, if I understand you, the only thing you'll accept as evidence of the killing is statistics published by the government that did the killing. Ok.

You didn't get it again. What I was saying is that I'll not take the statistical data published in Ukrainian immmigration newspapers. Just because they could not possibly have any tool to collect this statistics.

Consider the following example. American government claims that they sent men to the Moon. Some people in this forum question it. But even those who question it agree that this is something to be discussed.

Now suppose that Kenyan government will say that they sent men to the Moon. Nobody will believe it. If not for any other reason then because Kenyan-American president did not release his college transcripts. From this you can suspect that the GPA is not very high. And people with low GPA just can't do it.

Similarly the Ukrainian immigrants in America could not collect the statistics. They simply did not have the infrastructure to collect the statistics.

By the way you wrote that government DID the killing? You know it beforehand?

Originally posted by charles1952
But when you gave statistics, you mentioned 1926 and 1939, and those years only.

What's wrong with using Soviet statistics? I'll tell you. THEY DON'T EXIST.

Those are the years where they did population count. Are they supposed to do it every year? And if they don't this is a proof of Holodomor?

reply to post by simus


You might be right that I'm not getting it, check my first signature.

So, what I understand so far is that the American government has statistics showing births, deaths and total population for every year. These statistics show there was no American holodomor.

The Soviet government has no statistics relevant to the question. The only available evidence for a Ukrainian holodomor are the writings, stories, and observations done by the individuals at the time. But since you refuse to discuss those, where can we go from here?

If your position is there was no Ukrainian holodomor, because the Soviet government doesn't admit there was, I fail to follow your logic.

But, anyway, the topic was American holodomor, and I think we've established there wasn't one.

reply to post by charles1952

I am basing what I will say on the article OP has presented.

“A special commission, created by the US Congress in 1988, came to the conclusion that during the Holodomor period 25 per cent of the Ukrainian population – millions of people – were intentionally annihilated by the Soviet government through genocide, and did not just die as a result of famine.” “On October 20, 2003 the House of Representative of the US Congress accepted a resolution on the 1932-33 Holodomor in Ukraine, stating that this was an act of terror and mass murder, aimed at the Ukrainian people.” “In November 2005 the House of Representatives of the US Congress accepted a resolution which allowed the Ukrainian authorities to build a monument commemorating Holodomor victims and recognised it.” “This year (2008) the US Congress may consider a new resolution on the 1932-33 Holodomor in Ukraine”

All this has an interesting characteristic. USA, a world famous democracy, which has a less than pristine history of treating people on its territory, out of the blue declares in 1988 that it "recognizes" the Holodomor. 1988 is an interesting year to be doing this. Why? Well this is the run up to the down fall of the Soviet Union. Guess it was a good time to awaken Ukraine to the fact that someone cares about them way way over the Atlantic, forgetting the deals cut with Stalin before during/after the war that helped to land them in the Soviet sack of potatoes.

Next in 2003 Congress awakes from it snooze to makes noise of how much it loves Ukraine. Why? My guess is because "expansion" eastward required this and the "tool" was/is the European Union. However this move failed. That Democratic icon Julia and the other "friend" were not clever enough and too far from their helpful democrats in the West, no way to send liberator NATO.

In 2008 Congress is at it again. Why? Perhaps its to stir the pot in the Ukrainian politics and stir up anti-Russian feelings. Another factor might be to paint black Putin, that Stalin of the 21 century. Look how anti-democratically he treated the Pussy Riot girls

I see this RT article as a tick for tack. What charles1952 has provided is fairly convincing that US had nothing like a Holodrom in Ukraine. To the best of my knowledge my relatives never spoke of anything like this even though they lived through Depression and some. In those days USA was closer to an ideal Democracy than the Soviet Union.

As to proving "reliable" numbers for the Ukrainian Holodrom, well I think we will have a huge problem here. If professional (I assume) historians ,who have far far greater access to data to come up with such numbers, are arguing with a range of 1 to 12 million, what hope do we have with the miniscule access to data that we have?

The best that we can do is show that there was a great wrong done which for far far too many years was IGNORED by the World. Seeking reasons for why would be of great benefit also

The great devil Stalin's words to Churchill suffices for me that the number is close to 10 million. From Wiki

Other estimates come from recorded discussion between world leaders like Churchill and Stalin. In an August 1942 conversation, Stalin gave Churchill his estimates of the number of "kulaks" who were repressed for resisting collectivization as 10 million, in all of the Soviet Union, rather than only in Ukraine. When using this number, Stalin implied that it included not only those who lost their lives, but also forcibly deported.[73][74]

simus wrote,

By the way you wrote that government DID the killing? You know it beforehand?

Now how are we going to establish this one? You ask for a lot here and offer nothing in the negative. How about "Who had CONTROL over the territory where all this happened?" It was the Soviets with their version of Gestapo/SS which was the NKVD.

Here is a bit of handy work of the NKVD who were government employees of the Soviet government on Ukrainian territory,
1) Solovki prison camp
Solovki Isl.
Repression
The model of future concentration camps of the Germans built and work camps in Siberia built by the Soviets. The exchange and training of the German army on Soviet territory prior to WW II is no secret and is well documented but NOT much discussed

2) Nazino Affair
Just like the French Revolution in the Drownings at Nantes
More

In March and April 1933 over 6,300 of these hapless people were dumped on Nazino Island in the middle of the Ob River, hundreds of miles north of Tomsk. The island was mostly swamp and void of anything to eat. The prisoners .."

reply to post by tintin2012

Dear tintin2012,

Thanks a lot for your post, it provides much to think about. I hadn't even recognized that there might be an issue with the timing of the commerative events. I don't know whether your explanations for America's interest are the correct ones, they very well could be. Might I offer an alternate explanation?

1988, 2003, and 2008 were during the terms of Presidents Regan and Bush. I see them as being more interested in freedom around the world than any other modern presidents. Perhaps this emphasis on the Ukrainian deaths came from something in their personal character? I'm not saying I'm right, it's just another idea.

I should tell you once again how impressive your post was. I hope you stick around ATS and keep contributing.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

Well I appreciate your kind words charles1952. I will do my best to present as best as I can my view of events.

I have had to "revise" a considerable amount of my understanding of events in history and their relation to what is happening today, as a result of reading comments of others who PRESENTED a view considerably different from that of the main stream. The suggested sources often opened me up to information I did not even think existed. This takes time but it has been time well worth spending. Am I right? God knows but I am constantly itterating as new information comes in

I see them as being more interested in freedom around the world than any other modern presidents .

Well I am more cynical than you toward motives driving a given president (administration). Close look at their actions rather than their words is the litmus test for me.

Not saying I am infallible but since the Regan presidency I feel our country has been betrayed at an astonishing velocity. Just look at the National Debt and the talk of smaller government as an example. It was all one huge lie. "They" want/wanted a Bigger government and us paying for it till death do us part. They got it and more

My impression is that nothing in history happens without an originating force. There are always "drivers" that like a sheep dog move the herd in different directions. Our task (if this is of interest to us) is to try and understand how this is all done and identify potential actors in the "play". Sort of like observing the planetary movement, you need a lot of observations over a long time to have any hope of figuring out what is going on

Originally posted by charles1952
So, what I understand so far is that the American government has statistics showing births, deaths and total population for every year. These statistics show there was no American holodomor.

The Soviet government has no statistics relevant to the question.

How come that the Soviet statistics showing two million population growth is irrelevant? If they do not have statistics for every year it could be because they had other things to do. Industrialization, fo example. By the way just the statistics of the industrial growth is incompatible with the death of the quarter of the population.

Originally posted by charles1952
The only available evidence for a Ukrainian holodomor are the writings, stories, and observations done by the individuals at the time. But since you refuse to discuss those, where can we go from here?

Where did I say that I refuse to discuss these data? In contrary I suggested to bring them up and try to estimate the death toll. I just refused to dicuss final numbers pulled out of a thin air.

Originally posted by charles1952
If your position is there was no Ukrainian holodomor, because the Soviet government doesn't admit there was, I fail to follow your logic.

If it is indeed my position, then it is very similar to your position. You say that there was no American holodomor and base your conclusion on the statistics given by the American government.

Originally posted by charles1952
But, anyway, the topic was American holodomor, and I think we've established there wasn't one.

No. I used Reductio ad Absurdum method. If you apply the same "scientific" methods which were used to show that ten millions Ukrainians died in Holodomor, you can "prove" that ten million Americans starved to death during the Great depression. Result seems absurd to you. This means that the method is wrong. And for Ukraine as well.

reply to post by tintin2012

Dear tintin2012,

I'm quite impressed with your approach to understanding, it sounds "scientific." By that I mean you look for all the data available, determine whether that particular datum is valid, then use it to create a better and more encompassing theory of reality.

My impression is that nothing in history happens without an originating force.

I would probably accept that even if you expanded it to say "nothing anywhere happens without an originating force." I wonder if I'm being over cautious, but I'm uncertain (for a couple of reasons) about the word "force."

My first thought is that there are many forces, tugging in different directions, acting upon each of us. Some forces may be as banal as an upset stomach leading us to be rude to an associate, and some may be as grand as the plottings of the rulers of the world. I have to believe that some forces are unplanned and accidental, like the temporary loss of car keys resulting in our being late for an important meeting.

Some forces are global in scope and do have plans for nations and individuals. They are planned and thought out, as well as human intelligence can do these things. (I'm including aliens, if they exist.) Like some, I also believe there are spiritual forces involved in the fate of the world and it's inhabitants.

Determining which forces are acting to influence any particular individual, and how important those forces are, is a massive task. I'm glad you've undertaken, for I fear my mind isn't up to the task.

If I haven't said it before, may I mention that I'm impressed and glad you're here?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

determine whether that particular datum is valid, then use it to create a better and more encompassing theory of reality.

Life is a puzzle for those who bother to stop and think. The wider you are able to look the better perspective you get which in my case then seems to bring me back to myself. This issue of Holodmore is one such case. I was a none event for me or even the tens of millions who died in Soviet Union BECAUSE my sources of information excluded it from "front row seat". Only Holocaust was worthy to be seen as a big tragedy. Then and there I knew that someone was manipulating my knowledge.

Armenian Genocide - 600,000 - 1,800,000 dead (acknowledged as such by US when ?)
Khmer Rouge - estimates range from 850,000 to 2.5 million ( not a peep or finger lifted by the World for a long time)
..... the list is long. Selective memory at convenient times way past when it can do any good. Then, it is business as usual.

Originally posted by charles1952 The only available evidence for a Ukrainian holodomor are the writings, stories, and observations done by the individuals at the time. But since you refuse to discuss those, where can we go from here?

There is data also available from ambassies/consulates which had them in a given country. For a fact this is true for the Brits, French and the Poles. They knew and wrote reports on what they saw to their home country. This is a data point

The Russian Presidential and other archives have the lot. They know the best what happened. However as any country, they withhold what is inconvenient and release that which serves their INTEREST. NKVD received orders, sent reports, agent reports, interrogations etc. which would build a quite accurate picture of what went on. Will they give full access to this? Maybe limited but overall NO.

The factions/institutions tied to these events are still around. No country will easily undercut itself because the State goes on existing and we go under ground. Great Britain conveniently extends documents additional 50-60 yrs that relate to WW II. US also is in the habit of doing similar things. Things that damage image are locked away until it makes no difference. We grab snippets of info and have to build a picture based on past vs. present behavior.

The Soviets got away with murder, the Cold War ended and the butchers got their pensions. However before you jump and think we are better step back and think. We just do it differently and on a different scale.

Eisenhower 1
Eisenhower 2

reply to post by tintin2012

Dear tintin2012,

Excellent work, may I offer just a general response?

Americans, Soviets, Asians, we are all subject to temptations to do horrible things. Governments have more power to put these terrible urges into practice on a wide scale, but they are still the urges that all men have.

Destroying people is sometimes seen as a possible solution to a problem. Too many see it as an acceptable solution. There must be some restraint. For some, it's internal "We don't do that kind of thing." For some, they are afraid of world opinion and reaction.

When the world ignores any of these massacres, it send a message that some nations or groups no longer have to worry about what the world thinks, and the next killings become easier. We must be willing to call out our allies, even ourselves, when this kind of terror occurs. Our record is not all that good.

Thanks for your thoughts.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

We must be willing to call out our allies, even ourselves, when this kind of terror occurs. Our record is not all that good.

Hence charles1952 it is a Good Fight that we fight bringing "different" information to those on ATS so that they have at least a chance to see it mentioned. Like yourself I have spotted other souls here doing good work. On the Tecumseh thread, Thomas Jefferson and surprisingly on the "NASA is removing the reseau marks from Apollo images". Lets just chip away and I am sure some good will come of it. The pendulum swings in two directions. :-)

I like your avatar, and that is how I picture you reading these threads. Hahhaaa ...