Would you kill yourself to save a complete stranger?

So your saying you don't believe you have a soul?
What if reincarnation exists and your reborn as a rock for being such a coward?

good to see this is going where I want it to go.

are all lives equal?

Is a child's life worth more than an 80 years old man?

To kill yourself is a sin so not a chance. Not to be mistaken for attempting to save someone while placing my life on the line as well. That I might do depending on the scenario..

Originally posted by Connman
To kill yourself is a sin so not a chance. Not to be mistaken for attempting to save someone while placing my life on the line as well. That I might do depending on the scenario..

Since you are a believer in God. What would you say is the difference between suicide and sacrifice?

reply to post by AdamLaw


I sure would.

Who gets to decide who is "innocent" anyway? No one is innocent.

reply to post by AdamLaw


Pretty simply to me putting a gun to your head is suicide for sure but lets say it wasn`t me putting it there that could be sacrifice to save another.

I would not do it for 10 people I did not know being old young black or white. Now if I know the 10 people I`d have to think on it. But a million people. Go ahead pull the trigger.

Yes, if it was a child. Otherwise no.

Originally posted by AdamLaw

Originally posted by Connman
To kill yourself is a sin so not a chance. Not to be mistaken for attempting to save someone while placing my life on the line as well. That I might do depending on the scenario..

Since you are a believer in God. What would you say is the difference between suicide and sacrifice?

You don't have to believe in God to know the difference between suicide and sacrifice. You could put a bullet in your head and live, you still committed suicide, just very poorly. If you jump in front of a train to push someone out of the way, and somehow live, you still made a sacrifice. The latter of the two options is more noble, even to the strongest disbeliever.

Me personally, there are 3 people I'd take a bullet for. I would not outright shoot myself in the head for these 3 people or commit suicide in some other manner, but I'd do just about anything else. After that, sorry folks, it's easy to talk like Jesus Christ, but if it comes down to it you probably wouldn't walk like him.

Originally posted by Samuelis
reply to post by AdamLaw

 

In a dangerous situation, the hero thinks of others first and acts. The coward thinks of himself first, maybe doing nothing.

My question is, why are we compelled to believe that? What conditioning is brought to bear? Who labels someone a "hero"? The survivors.

I reject the dichotomy that you obviously support (in your subesequent posts.) We can do endless "what if"? scenarios that make no sense in real life, as we see here. "What if?" the choice was between a child and a bum? Well, "what if?" the "bum" was actually a genius on the verge of discovering the secret to zero point energy that would save the Earth and the child was a drug addict? THEN would you throw the bum off the bridge? This kind of speculation can quickly become nonsensical.

In the final analysis you can exhibit all the bravado you want to pretend you would sacrifice self in a time of need, but would you be so brave and on such a pedestal if it actually happened? We'll never know, so your bravado is self-serving and means nothing.

It's a fantasy.

Originally posted by AdamLaw
good to see this is going where I want it to go.

are all lives equal?

Is a child's life worth more than an 80 years old man?

edit on 6-10-2012 by AdamLaw because: (no reason given)

Good question. I think many people would sacrifice their own lives for a childs because they have already had a chance to live much of their lives and a child has not. Then again, we do not know if that child will grow up to be in a gang, a drug addict, a murderer etc. And the adult that saved that childs life was needed in the lives of his or her family and friends for whatever reason.

Gives you something to ponder, though many people will put their faith in the life of the child. Interesting though that the child will one day be an adult also, so does that make his life worth less when he reaches adulthood?

No.
No.
No.
and.....
No.

The only way I can see thru killing myself saves others is if there is a heroic feat involved. Or at least an enormous gesture to one. Stepping in front of the bullet (using my cape to deflect and kill said bad guy).

Now. If the question really is: would I strap a bomb to myself and blow lots of stuff/ people up. I'm not sure.

THAT is a question I've asked myself since 9/11. "What do I believe in enough to kill myself, making what impact?" (sorry for the pun)


Truth is, I don't have that answer. My Freedom? (I'm dead, I'm ultimately free) My Country (not for about the last 100 years has it been worthy)

reply to post by Night Star


Good thoughts. Mine are that at least the child will have a chance to reach their potential.

Sure why not. It is just a biological machine anyway that I will be loosing and this place will not evolve fast enought from my point of view anyway so it is not like I am leaving something extreamly harmonious loving place that I will miss greatly behind. And it would be nice to be able to find out all the specifics of how reality really works.

reply to post by AdamLaw


I have an old friend of mine who died trying to save two kids that fell into a swollen stream. He hit his head in the water, but they got out.

This is a good question, it would all depend on what was happening. If I knew there was no way I could survive, then no, self preservation wins out every time.
If I thought I could do whatever it was and survive, I would do it.
If it was to save the entire human race, yep, I would do it.
But I don't see how that could happen, so it is safe to say I would...lol

There are so many scenes that are popping into my head. Say a father saves someone's child and because of it, the man's wife is so devestated she takes her own life leaving a couple of kids behind. So many other lives are affected by this man's one action.

Or maybe the wife takes up drinking, becomes an alcoholic and abuses her children.
Or maybe the wife handles it as best she can, but one of their kids can't handle the loss and turns to drugs and booze and ruins his/her life.

Or maybe the person who saved that childs life has no one but a dependant elderly parent who can't fend for themselves and there are no other reletives or friends and the parent doesn't watch t.v. or hear any news and is left to wonder what happened and dies because they have no one to care for them. How long would they suffer before they die? Ok, maybe that one is a stretch, but you never know.

So many different scenerios can occur.

I have had dreams in the past where I saved a child's life because I figured I had already had a chance to live my own. Then I think, I have a disabled husband, an elderly mother who needs me and others who love and need me in their lives. I would like to think in real life I would save the child, but no matter what I choose, there will be devestation left behind.

I would kill myself to save a million. Dying with a clean conscience is not a gift many receive.

reply to post by AdamLaw

I would never kill myself, not even to save the lives of my wife and children. That said, I would risk my life to save a complete stranger's, even if there was zero chance of me surving- it is the values which we hold dear that give this life any purpose, whether I go to heaven as I believe or if it all blinks out when the brain dies, when it is all said and done I want to know that I never compromised, I lived for a purpose bigger than myself. Otherwise life is just merely a vanity, and I don't want to be defined in that way.

Originally posted by AdamLaw

Originally posted by Connman
To kill yourself is a sin so not a chance. Not to be mistaken for attempting to save someone while placing my life on the line as well. That I might do depending on the scenario..

Since you are a believer in God. What would you say is the difference between suicide and sacrifice?

Suicide is Murder. It is merely the act of interfering with ones own destiny. Sacrifice is rising above self to protect an esteemed set of values and virtues. The small hold this world has on me would be meaningless if I had to live in shame.

I think the answer is pretty evident, probably not. It is our instinct to stay alive after all. But then, what if that stranger was a child? It gets harder to answer but then again, I would not kill my self to save this unknown child.

This reminds of a statement from the Talmud

The Talmud (Bava Metzia 62a) discusses the case of two people who are travelling the desert and only one of them has sufficient water to survive. Ben Petura is of the opinion that it is better that they divide the water and both die, rather than have one watch the death of the other. Rabbi Akiva is of the opinion that "your life comes first", that the owner of the water must save his life first, even if the other person will die. Rabbi Akiva's opinion has become the Halachic consensus

Link

I pretty much agree with that view, and surprisingly Judaism does as well.

In the desert scenario in the Talmud, I would act similarly. If only one person can live, and the water rightfully belongs to me, than I am the one that is going to live. The person who doesn't have the water, I'm sorry to say, is condemned; but it's either him or I, or neither of us. And since neither of us would be idiotic, it's either he or I; the basic ethical question comes down to: should I sacrifice myself for him? Why? Is the principle of love more intrinsic to my love for myself, and so my appreciation in existing and being, or my love for whatever exists outside myself i.e other people or beings; I think there's a valid case for putting your own self - and your own appreciation for life - over someone else's. And if that unfortunate scenario the Talmud describes ever were to arise, I imagine the one who didn't have the canteen would understand and finally accede that he cannot accept any other scenario other than the one fate has destined for him; to take the canteen from the one it belongs to, is to profit where you should have lost; and as sad as that is, the guilt from living on while the one who gave you the canteen died is too shameful, and probably guilt-ridden in itself, to allow the other to ever live in perfect equanimity.

1 million strangers saved by my sacrifice? In all honesty, I would not.

There always comes a point where the person SHOULD recognize his need to protect the lives of others.

If you can save 100 people by sacrificing yourself, wouldn't you feel impelled by reason to understand that 100 individuals you's are facing the same fate that you are?

reply to post by dontreally


Brilliant insight.

I like the desert parable of the Talmud. It may be better to die on one's own terms with self-respect, dignity and no regrets.