Pope's ex-butler gets 18 months in prison for leaking confidential papers

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
1) he would not be involved in any shady dealings

What shady dealings was he involved in?

2) if he were a Christian he would forgive this man and let him go free.

He can forgive him, but first the butler needs to make a formal request. As far as I have seen he hasn't done that after being sentenced.

The Pope is Evil, and I challenge anyone to prove me otherwise. Can't be done.

Because you have it backwards, the ones making the claim (in this case, the Pope is Evil) are the ones that must prove that what they say is true, it's not the other people that have to prove them wrong.

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
1) he would not be involved in any shady dealings

What shady dealings was he involved in?

2) if he were a Christian he would forgive this man and let him go free.

He can forgive him, but first the butler needs to make a formal request. As far as I have seen he hasn't done that after being sentenced.

The Pope is Evil, and I challenge anyone to prove me otherwise. Can't be done.

Because you have it backwards, the ones making the claim (in this case, the Pope is Evil) are the ones that must prove that what they say is true, it's not the other people that have to prove them wrong.

I didn't read the book but apparently " the leaked papers revealed claims of corruption within the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy." Instead of being "furious' about it, The Pope should have given this guy a metal. His attitude shows he has to be involved somehow. As well as the courts scaling back his 3 year sentence after seeing those documents - They have to have seen something that implicates the pope or other high ranking clergy. At lease the pope had to have known these things were taking place in the Vatican.

Jesus tells his followers not to have ANY appearance of evil, wrongdoings, shady deals etc in thier lives. That they are to be pure. If the Pope knew of these things and didn't stop them and his attitude toward this guy, tells me the pope was in the wrong and Not following Christ. So much Un-Christian like attitudes from the Pope even in the above news link, there is no way he's a real follower of Christ. Jesus said, if your not with me, you are against me, meaning they are with Satan, so be it for the Pope. The shoe fits.

The guy has to formally request forgiveness from this MAN (the pope) . Are you kidding me? I don't know what book your reading but that's not in my bible.. even in my catholic bible. No, Jesus admonished his disciples to openly forgive all who do them wrong. Jesus didn't say " Only forgive those who ask of you". Are you saying now that the Pope is above Jesus?

Your third counter is a well known tactic used often in science when people do not want to face the responsibility of answering the charge. That's pretty phoney and see through. Why play games, just answer the charge. You wont, cant so you childishly throw it back on the person. Well, I answered the charge, so now, it's your turn. Prove to me that for these things the pope is not evil. Do it by the catholic bible if you like,( the sole authority of the church) but you cant.

So much for the catholic churches vaunted forgiveness. Oh we will forgive you unless you embarass us then you pay ese.

So what are the specifics of the corruption?

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
I didn't read the book but apparently " the leaked papers revealed claims of corruption within the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy." Instead of being "furious' about it, The Pope should have given this guy a metal. His attitude shows he has to be involved somehow.

I see it as perfectly normal that someone would be furious about being betrayed by someone that lives and works as close to them as the butler did with the Pope, I don't see it as a "he has to be involved somehow" situation.

As well as the courts scaling back his 3 year sentence after seeing those documents

The sentence was reduced because he had no criminal records before this case, or so the news sites say.

They have to have seen something that implicates the pope or other high ranking clergy. At lease the pope had to have known these things were taking place in the Vatican.

Well, that's your opinion that "They have to have seen something that implicates the pope" and that "the pope had to have known these things were taking place", but I don't think that things must be as you think. In all hierarchical organisations do you expect the top person to know all that happens at all levels of the organisation?

If the Pope knew of these things and didn't stop them and his attitude toward this guy, tells me the pope was in the wrong and Not following Christ.

If.

The guy has to formally request forgiveness from this MAN (the pope) . Are you kidding me? I don't know what book your reading but that's not in my bible.. even in my catholic bible.

The man needs to ask forgiveness from the Pope because the Pope is the head of state in the Vatican, in the same way, in most countries, people have to ask explicitly to the president (or whoever) for a pardon of sentence they are serving.

Your third counter is a well known tactic used often in science when people do not want to face the responsibility of answering the charge.

You have presented your opinion, why should I treat it as the truth? I am not the Pope and I don't know a thing about his life, so I cannot present any evidence that he is or isn't evil. I thought that the people making the accusations were the ones that should provide evidence of what they say.

Prove to me that for these things the pope is not evil.

You haven't provided any facts that can be countered (is that the right word?), only your opinion, so this can only be a discussion about our own opinions. As I have said before, I don't know the Pope, so I cannot really say if he is evil or not.

Do it by the catholic bible if you like,( the sole authority of the church) but you cant.

I do not know the Bible by heart (only read the Old Testament once, some years ago), and I don't think that the Bible's definition of what is evil (if there is one) matters to me, as to me that's just another book.

reply to post by MadhatterTheGreat

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom

Some of the documents suggested the existence of a web of corruption, nepotism and cronyism linked to the awarding of contracts for the maintenance of the Vatican estate. Others showed signs of widespread infighting among cardinals.

worldnews.nbcnews.com...
As far as I can tell, these alleged misdeeds:

Corruption
Nepotism
Cronyism
....are linked to awarding of contracts (favoritism and unjust treatment)
And under-the-radar dissention among the ranks:

Wide-spread In-fighting Among Bishops

they found more than 1,000 important documents among a stash of hundreds of thousands.

edition.cnn.com...

The butler, Paolo Gabriele, acted out of a desire to combat "evil and corruption everywhere in the Church," according to a prosecutor in the case.

religion.blogs.cnn.com...

Some of the documents alleged corruption in the Vatican's business dealings with Italian companies, laid bare rivalries and bickering at the highest levels of the Catholic Church, and disclosed internal conflict on the running of the Vatican bank.

uk.reuters.com...

I haven't read the book, either. But it apparently has to do with money. Surprise, surprise.

So...the book came out a year ago, with details of corruption ect...
And nothing has happened except that the fellow that provided the author of said book with sources for his claims gets arrested and convicted of theft.
Either this book is a really bad read or costs a whole lot of $...or, the corruption implications arent a big enough deal for most of the world to care?
I do understand the Vatican is a sovereign state, and can handle its own affairs as it sees fit.
But, not having read the book, and assuming many others have, if there was anything really outragous in it, then the stuff would have already really hit the fan, and we would all know the terrible dealings inside the church.

So, my conclusion must be that, the corruption and in-fighting that has been exposed is exactly on par with what we expect from Pope and his minions

Therefore, we are not shocked, suprised, or moved to make any changes, the Church has always been corrupt, and always will be; yet it still claims 1.8 Billion followers. I guess that's thier choice.

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom

But, not having read the book, and assuming many others have, if there was anything really outragous in it, then the stuff would have already really hit the fan, and we would all know the terrible dealings inside the church.

Just like we know all the terrible dealings inside every government across the globe?

It appears to me that "outrageous" just isn't enough to bring the hammer down amongst world leaders and players.

I'm not disagreeing with your post.

Just saying, lack of public exposure does not exonerate misdeeds on any level. You know all about "spin", right?
The Vatican will do all in its power to bury this stuff. That's a given.

Originally posted by wildtimes
The Vatican will do all in its power to bury this stuff. That's a given.

They didn't try to stop the selling of the book, as far as I know.

reply to post by ArMaP


Apparently the book was a done deal, and already public, by the time this butler's actions were discovered.
Please don't assume that I'm anti-whatever. I just brought the story to light, and I see lots of buried corruption in all of the religious institutions.

What bothers me most about the Vatican is their ungodly wealth (pun intended), and the obvious scandals and misdeeds going on at lower levels of "management". It isn't rocket science to see that the Pope and the RCC have inordinate sums of money that could be helping those in dire need.

They could be Methodists, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Gypsies, Santeria, Baptists, Muslims, (or whatever denomination! not trying to point a finger at anyone in particular!)..........I don't care what they "call" themselves. As long as there are excessively wealthy people hoarding wealth and pretending to be "benevolent" (while hoarding wealth), I will be contrary.

God bless

Originally posted by wildtimes
Apparently the book was a done deal, and already public, by the time this butler's actions were discovered.

Yes, that's why I said that they didn't try to stop the selling of the book instead of saying that they didn't try to stop the publishing of the book.

There are many cases of books that get published and that are latter forbidden from being sold because of some court order, I was just pointing that (as far as I know) the Vatican hasn't tried to do that.

reply to post by ArMaP

(as far as I know) the Vatican hasn't tried to do that.

Would they have any leverage to do that? I'd think not. The publisher is an independent entity, not under Vatican dictation. I assume. I don't see how they could justify "forbidding" it without making matters worse. The best they can do is try to spin it or discredit it.

I don't know. I haven't been following it all that closely. I tried to go to Vaticaninsider yesterday (a third party site), and the English version is off-line, as is the Spanish. I wonder why??

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by ArMaP

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Originally posted by wildtimes
Wow. The guy who tried to expose the corruption goes to jail?

Stealing is a crime, and he didn't steal the documents in self defence.

Well, that hunk of gold nugget that they found in a shoe box in his apartment didn't help the "theft" charge. I don't know what the legalities of copying papers are, (not stealing) or what kind of confidentiality contract he may have signed. It may have had a criminal prosecution clause, for spilling the holy beans, seeing that the Vatican is a sovereign country in it's own right.

I hope that we are able to see these documents some day, that they haven't been completely seized, estoppled or destroyed altogether. At any rate, after his 18 months, this guy will be considered a saint on talk show circuits!

I wouldn't be surprised if the the gold nugget and some of the other items were planted by some of the Popes minions in an effort to discredit anything this Butler has to say. extra DIV